Seth: So the first thing we need to know is like, God rules.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he's inviting his son Jesus to rule alongside him. He's giving him the kingdom of the world and he is building a kingdom on this earth that will overtake all the empires of the world, no matter how brutal, how technologically advanced. That's the good news of the kingdom of God.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing in the book of Daniel with Daniel chapter 2. Seth, how you feeling about Daniel chapter 2?
Seth: Um, confused.
David: Confused like the king.
Seth: Confused like the king. Less confused than I am the further we get into Daniel. Daniel chapter 2 is about this crazy vision the king has. Nebuchadnezzar has this four-parted statue that's destroyed by a meteor. And how it's about the successive empires of the world coming to an end by the kingdom of God. It's kind of one of the easier chapters in Daniel to understand.
David: Which is saying something.
Seth: Which is saying something.
David: That's like, yeah, that's like, I mean, it was the lowest bar cleared by an Olympian high jumper.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It was like, I still can't, I still can't clear it, but yeah.
Seth: And you'll, you'll experience some of that with us today. Which 4 empires exactly? When are they ruling? Are they about Jesus? How?
David: They are about Jesus.
Seth: Oh yeah. I know that one.
David: That's right. I know the answer to that question every time.
Seth: I know, that's right.
David: Well, okay, so, uh, let's review. So, uh, Israel is in exile, their temple has been destroyed, their best and brightest including Daniel have been carted off to Babylon, the autonomous empire of self-worship that is seeking to set itself up against the kingdom of God. But Daniel is the pseudo-priest who has passed the test of eating the king's food. He is the new and better Adam who did not eat, and so he's been risen to a place of ascendancy and given wisdom and knowledge. And now what's gonna happen?
Seth: What's gonna happen? Daniel chapter 2.
David: Everybody get that?
Seth: Everybody get that? If you didn't, you should go back and listen to the first ep— the first episode. But all you really need to know is Daniel, an exiled Jew, he's up in an up-and-coming advisor to the king and a the king is about to have a dream he can't explain. We've already been told that all the enchanters, magicians, astrologers, sorcerers of Babylon are okay, but Daniel and his friends are 10 times better. So we're about to see that play out, uh, what that, what that looks like on the ground. What does it mean to be 10 times more wise than an astrologer? We're about to figure that out in this chapter. Okay, so Nebuchadnezzar has a dream. His spirit is troubled, and he calls all the magicians and enchanters and sorcerers and the Chaldeans be summoned to the king to tell him his dream. So let's just pause there.
David: Okay.
Seth: Why is the king inviting sorcerers and enchanters and magicians to help him? Like, I mean, which king in the world today is inviting the magicians of his world? Ah, this is an odd thing for me as a modern reader. To get my head into. So sure, so what's happening, man?
David: That's a good question. I mean, I think there is an analog. I know it's not the weird one, but there is an analog to like having a cabinet or bringing in specialized minds to think about certain things.
Seth: Yep.
David: But yeah, our world just isn't as porous or as open to the spiritual as it used to be. And so used to, whenever you didn't understand something, instead of bringing bringing in an expert in psychoanalyzing you or something, right?
Seth: Expert psychologist.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You would, you would look to the mystics, right?
Seth: Yeah. I mean, I kind of, I knew the answer before I asked the question. It was just a good question. But like, that's right, these people are the best and brightest Babylon has to offer. All of the scientific arts were mixed with the dark arts. Like, have you heard of alchemy? Like, it was this like odd mix of like science experimentation, but also like transmutation and like witchcraft and some strange things. But these are the best minds that Babylon has to offer. They have the deepest spiritual and personal insight into the way the world works, the way the gods work, the way the stars work. It makes sense for the king to invite his cabinet of wise men.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: To explain a dream that he can't have. And I don't know how common knowledge this is today, but dreams, we don't normally assume when I have a dream, well, the gods must be speaking to me.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: That was a more common assumption.
David: That's the pizza I had last night.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, it's weird. I just like, whatever. But like often, especially if you're the king, if you have a dream that disturbs you, it's communication from the gods. And Nebuchadnezzar is actually right in this case.
David: Yeah, he is right.
Seth: He is right.
David: God is trying to say something to him.
Seth: God is trying to say something to him. And the idea of wise men interpreting a dream though is not that bizarre. This is the cabinet, the top psychologist, the top alchemist, the top, uh, these would probably be people involved in like making his like warfare, like was weapons of war, you know, like, but they're all infused with spirituality, like, right?
David: So anyway, okay, so that's what's happening. Uh, but there's a weird wrinkle in his request, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Because they come in and all the— all his sorcerers are just like, hey, tell us what the dream is and we'll be happy to interpret it for you.
Seth: And he's like, well, I don't trust you, is basically what he's like.
David: I could tell you my dream and you could give me an interpretation, but I want to know that it's legit because it disturbed me that much that I want you to do something unprecedented. I want you to tell me what my dream was and then interpret it. I'm not going to tell you what my dream was, right? And they're like, this is impossible.
Seth: No, no magician has ever been asked to do this.
David: Only the gods would know. What the dream was, because only the gods gave it to you. So you would need God to tell you your dream.
Seth: That's right. They say, they say this in verse 11, the thing that the king asks is difficult, and no one can show it to the king except the gods whose dwelling is not with flesh. So interesting, you're, you're getting teased as to what's going to happen. Like, the God who is not with flesh, Is that God gonna speak? Does that God exist?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, so that's gonna be Daniel's role in the story in a second. But I wanted to flag one other thing about just Nebuchadnezzar's relationship with his— these Chaldean counselors. Yeah, I kind of have a couple takes on him. One, he's paranoid. Oh sure, he's just— he's a man obsessed with his own power, and he's afraid that all of his closest advisors are just manipulating him, are manipulating him.
David: So if I tell you my dream, you're gonna just say whatever you want me to do, right? Twist me to do it.
Seth: So that's one way to understand it. And that's possible. The other way to understand, which I think is kind of interesting and fits with the themes within Daniel, is that Nebuchadnezzar is a cynic. He's a man of pragmatism. He's a man of war. He's a master tactician. He's conquered half the world.
David: And he's like, I don't know, I've put these magicians in my cabinet. Let's see if they're for real.
Seth: Right. And he's like, and he has adopted them, presumably from all the nations that he's conquered, right? Like Babylon isn't necessarily his home. And so he's like, okay, got you guys, I don't really trust that you're the real deal.
David: That makes more sense than him being, you know, crazy.
Seth: You're just wanting to tell me what I want to hear. If you're the real deal, you'll actually tell me my dream and its interpretation.
David: It makes sense because of what he threatens them with, because he says, if you don't give it, if you don't do this, I'll kill you. Because he's like, if you're not for real, what use are you? Exactly. So prove to me that you're the real McCoy or I'm going to kill you.
Seth: And we also know this is the second year of his reign. He's establishing his power. He's becoming like his own, his own emperor. And he's ready to clean house. Right. He's like, okay, I want to cut the fat. Prove your worth to me. Yeah.
David: If you want to stick around here and eat my food, let's see if you can actually pass the mustard.
Seth: And it's also interesting to think that perhaps he's legitimately seeking God.
David: Totally.
Seth: He's had a dream he can't understand. Yep. So he's like, okay, let me ask the spirits. Let me ask the gods. Let me ask the God who does not dwell with man.
David: And I want to, I want to know it's from him. So I'm not going to tell them. He actually wants to hear from God, which just, just parentheses. I was just thinking how funny this is. That you have a worldview in the king, right, that says that, oh, the gods speak to me through dreams. Right, right. You have a porous enough world where the gods speak to you in your dreams. You have it when you have a dream. It wasn't bad pizza. It was the gods were trying to say something to me. And yet the magicians are like, yeah, but the gods don't communicate to us what you dreamed, right? It's like this weird, like, faith but faithlessness. It's like, which is like what an idol is. It's Right. It's just, it's kind of pretend spirituality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, well, the gods speak, kind of.
Seth: Kind of. It could also be a knock against Nebuchadnezzar's claims to sovereignty.
David: How?
Seth: He has universal control over the world, except over his closest advisors.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: And so he is trying to solidify his own power with his advisors, and which is actually what he does in the next chapter, in chapter 3. He calls all the satraps and all the governors and all the officials to solidify their power, to solidify his power, to consolidate worship in himself alone. And then what happens? His advisors use that same thing to undermine Daniel and infight with his own advisors and to topple one of the people he just put in charge. It's a symbol that he doesn't have his full control over his empire as he thinks.
David: Right. Which is, which is the opposite point of Daniel.
Seth: Yes.
David: That is, God is in control.
Seth: That's right.
David: When he clearly communicates the dream to Daniel, we're going to see that God is governing his universe perfectly.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay, that's cool.
Seth: That's like that.
David: Okay, so what— so the magicians say what you've asked is impossible. We can't do it. Only the gods could do that.
Seth: Well, the king gets angry and very furious that these men are not cooperating with his plans and says he's going to kill all the wise men of Babylon, and that includes Daniel. Okay, so he sends out Arioch, his— the chief of the guards, captain of the guards, whoever he is. And then he comes to Daniel's door and says, I'm going to kill you now. And he Daniel, we're told, responds with wisdom and discretion, the captain of the king's guard. Um, so interesting, flagging the theme of wisdom, the necessity of wisdom, the wise men versus the wisdom of Daniel. Like, we're like, a battle of wisdom is happening, being set up. And he told Arioch, the king's captain, why, why are you doing this? Why are you trying to kill me so urgently?
David: Yeah, what's, what's, what's the rush, man?
Seth: And then Arioch says, well, this is happening with the other wise men. And Daniel went in and said, well, tell the king I want to meet with him and I'll tell him the interpretation.
David: Yeah. Which is crazy. So yes, like you and I were both kind of caught off guard by this, right? Like, you know, imagine Daniel chilling in his room, the guard comes in, he is like, hey, I gotta kill you. And he's like, whoa, why? What? Why is this such an urgent deal? He's like, ah, there's a dream. That the king had, and he wants people to just tell him what it is, ex nihilo, without any hint of its content. And Daniel, without asking God, without taking time, be like, let me go see if I can figure it out. He just goes, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it.
Seth: Right.
David: And then he goes and prays to God to get the interpretation. I'm just like, yeah, I— it's just that faith blew me away for a second. I was just like, that is— I just, I kind of long for that kind of faith.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh yeah, God will meet me here.
Seth: I'm trying to think of like under threat of death, is there a way that Jesus exhibits this type of faith? It's like, I can go into the— I can escape death.
David: Right.
Seth: You can put me under— I'm trying to like think of a way that Daniel is Jesus. I'm not coming up with a good one, but it's interesting. I want that faith too.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I want that faith too.
David: So yeah, he comes to him and now Daniel has been given the opportunity. To interpret the king's dream. And so what does he do? He goes and he prays.
Seth: He gathers his three friends, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, but they're given their Hebrew names again. And he asked— he seeks mercy from the God of heaven concerning this mystery. So this is a really important word. The king's— it's the king's riddle. The dream, the hidden dream, is called a mystery, um, so that Daniel and his companions might not be destroyed along with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. So they also understand if he can solve the the mystery, if he could reveal the dream, he doesn't just save himself, he saves all the astrologers, all the wise men of Babylon. He could bless everybody in the king's court, right, if he succeeds in this matter. And then God gives him the vision, right?
David: And yeah, and it's amazing too, like, does he give him the vision and then he has the hymn?
Seth: Yeah, then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a vision of the night, and then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. So he falls asleep God gives him a dream to respond to the other dream. And then what's funny, and then what's funny, or you're laughing for a different reason.
David: I am laughing for a different reason. I'm just laughing that the work is done when he's asleep.
Seth: Right. It's just like he could have prayed all night long.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's just like, God could have showed up after sweating it out. Of course.
David: Do we know that a vision of the night means that he went to sleep? I guess we don't know.
Seth: I guess we don't know that.
David: Maybe that would've been a dream.
Seth: Yes. A vision of the night.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: Vision of the night. Oh, that's a dream.
David: Yeah, but who knows?
Seth: Anyway, dreams and visions are often synonymous.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Or imply very similar things.
David: I always think dreams are when you're asleep and visions are overlaid over your reality.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So like later, you know, he's going to say that he had this vision of a ram across the street.
Seth: Right.
David: But he had people with him and they couldn't see the ram. So vision is like laid over reality and anybody could see it.
Seth: Right.
David: But it's only given to the people who did it.
Seth: Whether it's a dream or a vision, he sees the answer.
David: Yes.
Seth: What's funny also about this passage is it doesn't tell you the answer yet, right? We don't know the dream.
David: The narrator— it's just good writing.
Seth: The narrator is just postponing. What's the mystery? What's the mystery? What's the mystery? What's the mystery? And then, and the mystery was revealed. What's the mystery? Instead, we get a parallel theme of the universal sovereignty of God.
David: Right.
Seth: We already know that Nebuchadnezzar claims to be the universal sovereign of Babylon. We've seen cracks within his own administration. And then Daniel sings a hymn. He blesses the name of God, to whom belongs wisdom and power. And he changes times and seasons. He removes kings and sets up kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding. He reveals the deep and hidden things. He knows what is in the darkness, and light dwells with him. To you, O God, my Father, I give thanks and praise, for you have given me wisdom and might, and you have made known to me what is asked of you. You have made known to us the king's matter. So he praises God for what? His ability to reveal mysteries and his control over the affairs of kings. Those two ideas are melded. Yeah.
David: Daniel's mind, which is interesting for a couple of reasons. One is because you like the mysteries revealed, but we don't know what it is. And then all of a sudden, Daniel's praising God for his universal sovereignty. And it makes you wonder as a reader, like, what was the dream, right? What did he see that made him go, oh, God's in control of everything, right? And we're going to learn like, oh, the content of the dream itself does that.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, he hints at it. He removes kings and sets up kings.
David: Yes. So he's like reflecting on the dream itself. But then beside that point is— and this is a theme throughout Daniel. Is that God reveals what's going to happen before it happens. God reveals what's hidden when no one else can see it.
Seth: Why?
David: Because he's the one in control of it. He's the one writing the story, right? He's the one who knows and controls the future and the present and the past. And therefore, the reason he can reveal is because he knows, right? And so, like, that's also what Daniel is praising. Yeah, is the fact that God is a revealer of mysteries. Because why? Because he's in control.
Seth: Yeah. Nebuchadnezzar can't write his own future.
David: No, but God can. That's right. That's why he knows the dream.
Seth: That's why he knows God doesn't have bad dreams. No. You know, like he, he has dreams that are always, always become reality.
David: Right.
Seth: Unlike Nebuchadnezzar, who cannot see into the future. Yeah. Yeah.
David: Okay. So, so Daniel sings this hymn and then Then he's taken in to the king?
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: So Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste. And also think about this. Arioch has no reason to bring Daniel before the king.
David: No. What's funny is he doesn't bring up the same caveat that the chief of the eunuchs brought up when Daniel wanted to do a test. Yeah, right. The chief of the eunuchs is like, if this doesn't work, it's my neck.
Seth: Right.
David: Arioch is like, great, let's go.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's strange. He's like, if I bring this dreamer in to the king and he misses it, not only are all the wise men going to be killed— that was my job— but now I'm going to die too.
Seth: I broke— I broke protocol. I always give an order. I didn't fulfill it. I'm sticking my neck out for Daniel in this moment.
David: Imagine— I mean, imagine being Nebuchadnezzar, like, hey, Arioch, go kill everybody. And Arioch's like, cool, will do. Comes back, he's like, hey, here's one of the people that— wait, hold on—
Seth: told me to kill.
David: You didn't obey.
Seth: He's putting his life in Daniel's hands.
David: Why? Why is that?
Seth: Well, we're told in chapter 1 that he's given favor and compassion among all the king's guards.
David: I see.
Seth: So there's this— so Daniel isn't just wiser, he's also— God is working behind the scenes to make him one of the most liked politicians in his court, in Nebuchadnezzar's court. Like, everybody is bowing to Daniel's will. Daniel wants to go see the king, Daniel gets to see the king, even when Nebuchadnezzar says kill him.
David: It's Dude, this just sounds so much like Esther.
Seth: Yes. And what's funny is Esther and Daniel are both written around the same time Israel is in exile. Some of Daniel's visions are written from Susa, the capital of Persia, where Esther lives and is the heroine of the story.
David: Some of the kings in Esther are— their names are in Daniel.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like Ahasuerus and things like that. That is just really— because Esther, you know, is brought before a king not knowing if she's going to die when she shows up.
Seth: That's right.
David: And the only reason she's given an audience is because of the favor that God has granted her.
Seth: Yep.
David: It was just like— I'm like, man, the parallels here are— yeah.
Seth: And it's what God's preserving his people in exile.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, even before thrones and kings, the apostles pick up on this.
David: They do.
Seth: Don't worry about what you're going to say when you go before thrones, kings. The Holy Spirit will be with you to give you the words that you are going to say. The Holy Spirit does for us today what God did for Daniel and Esther in their own days.
David: We can be a kingdom of people who can go before kings under the threat of death, knowing that the God who reveals mysteries will be with us.
Seth: Yes. Wow.
David: Okay, cool. That's amazing. I mean, and isn't that— I mean, it's interesting too to think about this as Jesus before Pilate. Jesus comes before Pilate, and Pilate asks him to reveal a mystery. What is truth? Oh, right, right.
Seth: The ultimate riddle.
David: The ultimate riddle. What is truth? And Jesus doesn't answer him, and he goes to his death for it. Yeah, but he knew. He said, I am the truth.
Seth: He knows the answer. And what's great, we should keep that story in mind, is because as we get into this, because he says, I have a kingdom not of this world.
David: That's right.
Seth: And in a moment there's going to be a kingdom not of the earth that smashes the empires of the earth. We should keep that story in mind.
David: Okay, we'll come back to it. We'll put a pin in Pilate.
Seth: Okay. The king declared to Daniel, whose name was Belshazzar. Okay. Switches back to his Aramaic name. Yeah. Yeah. His Aramaic name.
David: Oddly.
Seth: Are you able to make known to me the dream and have its interpretation? Daniel said, well, none of your wise men could do it, but there is a God in heaven. Ah, who—
David: that's what the magician said was required to do.
Seth: Right. But there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has made known to Nebuchadnezzar what will be in latter days. Your dreams and the visions of your head as you lay in bed are these. So he said he had visions. No, he said he had a dream. He said he had a dream.
David: Yeah, but it's amazing that he's, he's doing some work right here. Daniel's doing some theology for the king. He's saying, King, you had a, you had a dream. And you thought it was significant. Let me tell you, the one true God of the universe is the one who gave you that dream.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Nebuchadnezzar doesn't have that understanding yet.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And Daniel's here to, like, clear it up.
Seth: Yes. Okay. Yeah. He, like, confirms the suspicion. You're right, King.
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: Did have a divine—
David: You're right to be very disturbed by this dream, right? Because the one true God of the universe gave it to you.
Seth: Yeah. And God is going to reveal the mystery too. And then he also gives him some other theology. The dream doesn't come from me. The interpretation doesn't come from me. Um, verse 30: This mystery has been revealed to me not because of any wisdom that I have more than all the living here, but in order that the interpretation may be known to you and that you may know the thoughts of your mind. Like, Daniel's being very humble. He's like, I'm not wise.
David: The only—
Seth: God is speaking through me to you. God wants to speak to you, Nebuchadnezzar. He gave you the dream. He wants you to have the interpretation, and the interpretation has come from God. Through me. It's not because I'm— it's not because I'm a wise man. It's not because I have studied the stars. It's not because I have studied the tea leaves. It's because God wants to speak to you.
David: Yeah, it's really interesting. He's undercutting Nebuchadnezzar's skepticism of the sorcerers. So Nebuchadnezzar was like, are you guys legit or not? Like, do you guys have the power to do this or not? And Daniel comes in, he's like, No, I don't have the power, but there's a God who does.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, if you looked— if you looked at it from my perspective of like, is it me who could do this? You should just kill me. But because there's a God in heaven who reveals dreams, I have the answer you're looking for. And it has nothing to do with me and everything to do with God.
Seth: It's really interesting.
David: It's like a scary thing to say, too, if you think about it.
Seth: But anyway, it is really scary. And I'm trying to set it up. So we're about to get the dream. We're about to— Daniel's going to reveal the dream and then interpret the dream.
David: Finally, after 30 verses in it. It's like, what's the stinking dream?
Seth: But think about what's on the line now. We know that Nebuchadnezzar— God is speaking to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar knows that God is speaking to him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He knows that his own court might have some power dynamics at play that he's trying to solve. Nebuchadnezzar wants to know. I think he's disturbed by the dream because what's the dream about? God sets up and tears down kingdoms.
David: Like, totally.
Seth: So like, is my empire on the line? Nebuchadnezzar is worried.. And then Daniel comes in saying, there's a God above the gods who has written history and he has declared what's going to happen to you. Like, right.
David: Like, I mean, yeah. He's not being the manipulative sugarcoater that, uh, Nebuchadnezzar maybe feared his sorcerers were.
Seth: Right.
David: Because he's gonna be like, you're gonna die.
Seth: Right. Yeah. He's like, he's like, he's—
David: that is bold, man. Yeah. I was like, imagine if you were in a president's cabinet. And you know, you got a word from the Lord that he was going to get assassinated or something, you know, it's just like, so, uh, awkward conversation.
David: You—
Seth: there's a kingdom coming. China is coming. Okay.
David: So that's, that's all the tension that's there.
Seth: So you, oh king, saw a great image and the image was of exceeding brightness and it stood before you and it was a frightening image and it was a statue. The head of this image was of fine gold. Its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, and its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. And then as you looked at it, a stone cut by no human hand struck the image on the feet of iron and clay, broke them into pieces. Then the iron and the clay, the bronze and the silver and the gold, and all together were broken in pieces and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors and the wind carried them away. Not a trace would be found, but the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the earth.
David: So it's like, what a dream.
Seth: What a dream. I mean, I think I would be like that. It was different.
David: That was a weird dream.
Seth: Yeah.
Seth: It was not about some random, like, I would literally dream about my day, an alternate version of my day. Maybe I flew, maybe like, you like, I don't, doesn't get very grand.
David: Right.
Seth: My dreams. Maybe it's terrifying. Like, yes, one of my children died, but like, right, that's like the worst that happens. This is crazy.
David: Yes. Okay, walk me through then the, the, the statue. Okay, what's going on? So he sees this vision of a statue. Yeah, what, what is it? And it's made of a bunch of different materials. What's going on there?
Seth: So I don't know how much I can get into that without interpreting the dream as well. Okay, but a couple things that you can keep in your mind as as you consider this.
David: Yeah, maybe paint the picture for me. What is the statue?
Seth: Yeah, so just imagine a giant statue. Okay. And the head is made of gold, and then it transitions into silver, and the body and arms are made of silver, and then it transitions into iron. It has legs of iron, uh, and has feet that transition into iron and clay. So a couple things you can notice there. You have from precious metals to really common metals. Um, and then the things those types of metals are used for become— or are not really clear. But if you have this idea in your mind about kings being overthrown and setting up kings, and Daniel's going to interpret in a second as kingdom following kingdom following kingdom, one of the things of empire is that you use materials like bronze and iron to make your weapons of warfare, right? So you have some empires made of ornate materials.
David: You don't make a gold sword.
Seth: You don't make a gold sword. But then as you go down in history, the, they become more common, but also the more malleable. Bronze is actually an alloy, like it's a mix of two different metals. Right. And you can use it for a whole bunch of stuff. It's, we call it the Bronze Age, right? Like, like, so there's also this implication that maybe these empires are becoming more brutal. There's a brutality, more militaristic perhaps. And then you come to this, stone cut by no human hand that strikes the statue on its feet. Uh, so lots to talk about here.
David: Lots to talk about with the stone.
Seth: So we have this— we know it's a descending order of magnitude statue, perhaps representing kingdoms, hit by a stone, and that's uncut by human hands. Why should that trigger us alarm bells throughout the biblical narrative?
David: Yeah, so there's this really special time in Israel's history where they had a stone that was not to be cut. No tool, no human hand or tool was supposed to be used to cut this stone.
Seth: And this was right after the Ten Commandments was given in Exodus chapter 20, which, by the way, were written on tablets of stone that cut by no human— God cut. God cut with his own hands, right? Cut stones out of the mountain to put his law on. And then—
David: yes, and then you have this uncut stone that was to be the altar on which the very first God-commanded sacrifices were to be made. You know, you kind of have to not count like Abraham's almost sacrifice of Isaac. But, you know, this was like ritualistic, you know, religious, liturgical, liturgical sacrifices where incense and offerings could be made. And so he's saying that, that it's the first temple, it's the first pseudo temple of God. Let's just call it what it is. Because you have the altar right in front of the presence of God on the mountain, on Mount Sinai. So it's the first temple.
Seth: Yeah, the temple and the law of God. So like the image that you should— so like, if you have a biblical mind interpreting this image, and some, some people think that like, one of the ways I thought about Daniel, was that the king had this impenetrable dream and then God just downloaded all the information. What if Daniel just knows the biblical story really well?
David: Right.
Seth: And he's interpreting the king's dream in light of the biblical story.
David: Right. And all God showed him the dream, right? It was like, I get it, I get it.
Seth: I know what's going to happen because I've studied about what happened on Mount Sinai. I know what happens with uncut stones.
David: Yes. And so, so I think, yeah, the image is of the temple of God.
Seth: The law of God.
David: The law of God, which— well, let's begin, like, because the law, the tablets lived in the temple. Yep. The uncut stones lived within the Ark of the Covenant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's— and then the Ark of the Covenant was the prelude of this uncut stone. And then it all got turned into gold and all these other metals and things to become the temple of God. And so the temple of God, which is the seat of God's power, God's kingdom, God's empire, God's throne, Yeah, going to come and destroy all the other thrones of other kingdoms.
Seth: What's interesting is it strikes the image, the statue, in its feet. Yes, which sounds a whole lot like Genesis 3:15 when we're promised that one of Eve's descendants will crush the head of the serpent. And we're told that he will bruise his heel, but he will crush his head. So it's like it's an inversion of the image of the empires of the world. Their heel is being crushed. But the head of— it's an inversion of the image, but also calls back to the image. Right.
David: Oh, totally. It's using all the same language.
Seth: Yes.
David: There's a double entendre here.
Seth: Okay.
David: That's very interesting. So you only get this in the Hebrew, but it is very interesting. The word "cut." Yeah. And the word "hand" are both very interesting here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So the word "cut" is the same Hebrew word for sorcerers.
Seth: Really?
David: Or astrologers. The astrologers, same Hebrew word.
Seth: What?
David: And the word hand is the same word as ability. So think about this. And I looked and there was a stone divined by no human strength. There was a stone that no human could understand.
Seth: Hmm.
David: It's like it's a double entendre.
Seth: No sorcerer could understand this. Exactly.
David: Exactly what's happening.
Seth: Interesting.
David: And he's saying like, no, no sorcerer can understand. No astrologer can understand what's happening. But I can. And it's because I can see the double entendre.
Seth: That's really funny.
David: Which is going to happen again in chapter 5.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway, that's really funny. And so, but it's this—
Seth: the temple of God is going to come and crush the other kings of the world, and then that stone will be laid and then it will grow into a mountain. And I remember that will fill the whole earth.
David: Yes.
Seth: And remember where Babylon came from. Babylon is the spiritual successor of the Tower of Babel. Another mountain that tried to fill the earth on an empire of self-rule.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the Empire of Babel, the Tower of Babylon will be knocked down and replaced by a true mountain where God— of God's law, perhaps. Like, these are the images you should be thinking. Yeah.
David: And God's presence.
Seth: God's presence.
David: Where the worship of God will go up in the temple.
Seth: We try to not interpret the dream before we got to— we just did. We just did. But like, that's all on the line here.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I mean, so we're halfway there. Should we—
David: well, I mean, yeah, we should just keep going. But like, I just want to— we're all— we're on the top of the mountain. Yeah, the mountain that fills the whole earth. Um, you know, we, we said this earlier in the, in the other podcast on Daniel, but what's on the line in Daniel is the place of the worship of God has been destroyed. That it starts off— it starts off with the center of the kingdom, which is the house of God, the temple, has been destroyed. Its vessels have been carted off. So when is worship of God going to come back? When is the place where we get salvation going to come back? Again, where? Where? Yeah, when the place where God—
Seth: you said the Ark of the Covenant is God's throne. It's his throne. It's his throne room.
David: That's right.
Seth: When is the throne room coming back?
David: Exactly right. And here we get the answer is like, oh, it's going to come back and it's going to destroy all other kingdoms. It's going to fill the whole earth. And it's like, I mean, just let me jump the gun and just say in Revelation, when the kingdom of God does come, and it fills the whole earth as waters cover the sea. And where's the temple? It's gone. It is Jesus himself. And his light fills the whole earth. It was like, I mean, he's seeing— the king, in a sense, saw a vision of Jesus.
Seth: He did. Another way that Jesus is the stone is he's the cornerstone, right? He refers himself to the cornerstone that's a rock of offense and a stumbling block to others. This stone is an impenetrable mystery to the astrologers of Daniel's day. They don't know what it means.
David: That's right, they stumble over it.
Seth: Stumble over it, they're about to be killed.
David: Right, so this is exactly what happened, I think it's what 1 Corinthians talks about this, right?
Seth: I don't know what you're about to say.
David: Anyway, it talks about like the stumbling stone offense that the Greeks think it's stupid.
Seth: That's right.
David: And the Jews are offended by it.
Seth: That's right.
David: And it's like, oh, he's the impenetrable stone that no one can understand.
Seth: A lot of people think Paul, the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 1 is riffing on this story.
David: Oh, oh, I stumbled into it, I stumbled.
Seth: Stumble over the rock into something. Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?
David: Where are the king's astrologers?
Seth: Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? Come on. For since in the wisdom of God the world did not know God through wisdom— all the wise men could not know God's kingdom, no man, through their own dark arts. Um, but it pleased that God, through the folly of what we preach, to save those who believe. Jews demand signs, Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to the Gentiles.
David: And it is, it is, it is folly. It's foolishness to think that a stone could come and knock down a giant statue, right? That's what a silly story, right? What a silly story to think that a man dying on a cross could break the power of death for all humankind.
Seth: That would grow into this.
David: Yeah, what a silly story. Yeah, because God's shaming the wisdom of the astrologers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, Jesus is— then let's just say this— Jesus is the rock that people can't understand. Yeah, right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: People look at the cross even today, and like, it's just— it's either a silly story, or it's stupid, or it's offensive, or it never happened, or, you know, whatever, right? And it's impenetrable. They don't get it. Like, it just that doesn't make sense. And like, that's what Daniel's running up against here.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, yeah, yeah, foolishness. And let me tell you its interpretation.
Seth: It's salvation for you. Right. You know, in the next chapter, Nebuchadnezzar has this giant statue that he worships. I wonder if it was clear to him that the irony— yeah, I was like, oh, we'll get there. But I wonder if it was clear to him that the statue represented himself and world empires, but it wasn't clear what the stone meant. And like all the astrologers didn't want to say the thing. And I don't, I don't know.
David: Yeah, I get, I get it. He's like, oh, I get it, okay, I'm the head and other kings will come after me, but I'll be dead, so I don't really care. What's that stone?
Seth: What's that stone that's coming way after me? I don't— what's that mystery? I don't understand it.
David: Totally.
Seth: And then none of the astrologers knew what this, this stone—
David: this altar stone of the—
Seth: altar stone is not big, and it takes down the whole statue and then becomes a mountain. Who knows what that means? Yeah, I don't—
David: that's, that's more speculative. It does remind me too of, uh, I don't feel like it's a stretch, but it just reminds me too of like the stone that then fills the whole earth. It's like, oh, it's like the kingdom of God. What is it? I mean, we're talking about the kingdom of God here. Yeah, the kingdom of God is a mustard seed.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: It's a tiny little thing that then soon grows and turns into a bush and all the birds can come.
Seth: Well, I think that's exactly right. Because Nebuchadnezzar has another vision where he sees a giant tree and all the birds of the field and all the birds and all the sky and the animals of the field come and find rest in the shade. Like, yeah, I think that's right. It is like an image of a different kingdom than Babylon ruling the world. So we interpreted a whole bunch without even getting to Daniel's version of the interpretation, right? But here's, here's what Daniel says, and we can get into some more of the— because Yeah, I'll just start. This was the dream. You, O King of Kings— Daniel's talking to Nebuchadnezzar and says, you, O King, the King of Kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory— that's normally a way I talk about God— into whose hand has been given whatever, wherever they dwell, the children of man, the beasts of the field, all the birds of the heavens, making you rule over them all. You are the head of gold. It makes him sound like a new Adam.
David: Oh, big time.
Seth: He is the head of a new creation. He is the, he is the god of the world.
David: He made the Hanging Gardens.
Seth: He made the Hanging Gardens. That is right. Nebuchadnezzar did make the Hanging Gardens. But another kingdom inferior to you shall rise up, and then a third kingdom of bronze will rule over all the earth. And then a fourth kingdom strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things. So remember I talked about the preciousness of metals descending. This seems to be an image of that brutality. Iron swords are made from iron, like weapons, like armor is made from iron. Like iron was an innovative, a technological innovation, like bricks were an innovation in Babel, on the Tower of Babel. Bricks were technological information innovation that allowed them to become the proud nation of the world. Now iron is that same thing, a technological advance allowing them to conquer the world. And like iron that crushes, it shall break and crush all these. And then you saw feet and toes, but, um, you saw it was mixed with soft clay, and then they were partly strong and partly brittle. And as you saw, the iron mixed with the soft clay, it was crushed down. And in the days of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. So he's like, okay, King, here's the vision. You're seeing a succession of world empires, increasingly brutal, increasingly technologically advanced, but no matter how technologically advanced they come, they're gonna be overthrown by a stone, an uncut stone. Nothing fancy about a stone, but it will topple the giant of the statue, which is— it could even be a callback to the David and Goliath story. He picks up a stone out of the stream, right, and topples the empire of the Philistines, the strongest man.
David: It's really interesting to think about that.
Seth: So, and that's the dream. Successive, succession, a succession of world empires that is crushed by an unrefined stone. And that's the kingdom of the God of heaven. We covered most of that ground already in our interpretation. We should mention that what everybody else asks about in this moment.
David: Who is who?
Seth: Who is who? Which empire is which empire? Daniel tells King Nebuchadnezzar he's the head of gold, right?
David: Yeah. But now, before we answer the question, we should pause.
Seth: Okay.
David: And we should talk about this thing that you've— you've used kind of rubric of interpreting biblical prophecy that you've talked about.
Seth: Yes.
David: Where it's like, what's a good way for Christians today to interpret biblical prophecy?
Seth: Like, yes, we're on the edge of something really interesting here. We have a story. That's also now supposed to intersect with human history. Daniel is prophesying in the year 600 BC, according to many scholars, hundreds of years before the empires after Babylon fall, before Darius takes the throne, before the other kings mentioned here. Like, presumably Daniel knows nothing about what's happening beyond his current moment because he's a human, right? And God is downloading information to him beyond himself, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Um, So who are they? Right. Which nation? Which empire? Should we— and then the more you study this, the more confusing it gets because there's a whole bunch of theories out there which king is which. And as we've talked about multiple times before, Daniel is structured like a chiasm. They all have partnering chapters throughout the rest of the book. Daniel 2 is partnered with Daniel 7. We have a statue that represents 4 kingdoms. And then Daniel chapter 7, you have 4 new kingdoms represented by beasts, like these animalistic beasts. And some of them even have metal like infused into the imagery. So like you have these 2 images of world kingdoms talking to each other and apparently they precede the end of time, or do they?
David: Or do they? Yeah. And it's like those questions aren't wrong.
Seth: Right.
David: But they need to be, um, put under more important questions. Right. And so, um, where did you get this, this rubric from?
Seth: Yes.
David: What scholar was that? Do you remember?
Seth: I don't remember the scholar's name, but it's from the Brazos Theological Commentary Series, which is great. One of my favorites. He might be Sumner, perhaps.
David: Okay, Brazos Theological Commentary Series on Daniel.
Seth: Yeah, it's Esther Daniel combined. Okay, great.
David: And he, and he says the first question we should ask is not, well, who's the kingdom? He actually says that's the fourth one we should ask.
Seth: Yeah, the first, as Christians living after the reign like the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. The first thing we should be asking is, how are these prophecies about Jesus? Which is kind of the work we've already been doing. He's the kind of the whole work we do here at Spoken Gospel. Right, right, right. But the second question is also the other part of the work we do at Spoken Gospel, not about just Jesus' first coming, but about his second coming. How is this prophecy primarily this apocalyptic prophecy about the end of world empires? Right. What do we do with that? Well, first we see Jesus. Second, we see Jesus's final return.
David: So here, let's pause and do that. So first, we've said we see Jesus in that he is the rock that through his death crushes the kingdoms of this world.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: And then it's an empire within the empire, underneath the empire, in the middle of the empire's rule. Yes.
David: But then in his second coming, we're going to see in Revelation 5 that John pulls on all this same language from chapter 2 of Daniel in order to talk about the second coming of Jesus. And he talks about how Jesus is going to set up an eternal kingdom on the earth. Yep. And he's going to topple over every other empire, actually, and forever, until the earth, the new earth, becomes a place where the new heavens dwell with him as the kingdom forever.
Seth: Yeah. In Jesus, Jesus sets up a kingdom inside of Babylon, right? In Jesus's second coming, he becomes the only kingdom and destroys Babylon.
David: That's right.
Seth: And then the third way that we're supposed to understand apocalyptic literature like this is as the general course of human history.
David: Yes. And I think this is one is so interesting. Because as soon as we try to jump to the, okay, who are the four successive kingdoms, we end up missing this crucial part of understanding scripture, which is, yes, Daniel is talking about four specific kingdoms.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But he's also talking about the pattern of, of kingdoms. Yeah, kingdoms tend to go in this way, they tend to succeed one another, supplant one another, and get increasingly more brutal in their technological advances. It's like the atomic bomb is worse than the iron sword, right? The statue kept getting built.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it now has feet made of splitting atoms, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like we need to understand how to see biblical prophecy as a look at how the world moves in cycles and patterns.
Seth: Right. And we already set this up in chapter 1 and in our introduction, because Babylon doesn't begin in the book of Daniel, right? It begins in Genesis chapter 11. Yes. Where technological advance leads them to build the Tower of Babylon.
David: The bricks.
Seth: With the bricks to worship themselves. And this was one nation with one language that was split and then split up. Right now we have a new Babylon with more technology, with more technology, and even overcoming the curse of the first Babylon by having all these different nations enveloped into one empire. Right.
David: They've now figured out how to talk to all the different languages caused by Babel.
Seth: And then after, um, Nebuchadnezzar, more nations come with less precious metals, alloyed metals, more brittle metals. And think about like you, you say the feet made of splitting atoms with the increasing power of our technological advances, the more brittle and unstable the world becomes.
David: That's right. Now we could, we could fall into nuclear holocaust at the drop of a hat.
Seth: Right. So what's— so the first way we understand it, what's it— how's it about Jesus? David: Yeah
Seth: First coming. How's it about Jesus's second coming? How is this about the empires of the world?
David: They tend to increase in brutality and supplant one another
Seth: and increase in brutality, power, and brittleness.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, like instability.
David: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then the fourth way we understand
David: Is this about some historical moment
Seth: Right. The times when the kingdom of God or the empire of the world or the apocalypse seems to break through in real, in real time.
David: Yeah. Oh, that's really going to happen right there.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so he's like, this should be the way that Christians think about it. And I think, I mean, undergirding that assumption, that way of reading apocalyptic literature is that author's view of the Book of Daniel, where Daniel 7, the ascension of a Son of Man, seated at the right hand of the Ancient of Days, ruling over all things. When God rules over all things, once God rules over all things, how does that change our interpretation of history? How does that change the way that we look at world events? Which is part of what Daniel's inviting us to do. Daniel's just not just inviting us to like speculate on the moral exemplariness of Daniel and Pagan Babylon. It's like, who is the God that controls history? Who is the God that controls the world? And if God is put himself above all things and elected a son of man to sit next to him, how does that change our perception of the past and what we believe about the future? The event of Jesus reinterprets for us—
David: that's right—
Seth: how we view the events of the world. That's why those are the first two things that we must think about as Christians. And then, and it's also just wisdom because the most speculative thing is left for last,
David: Right.
Seth: Because Here are the options. So now let's just get into the options. So we've talked about how Jesus' first coming, second coming, how this is an example of all the empires of the world. There's multiple different ways to understand the empires that Daniel's describing in Nebuchadnezzar's vision.
David: Okay.
Seth: We're given one, got a freebie. Babylon.
David: Babylon is the gold head.
Seth: Is the gold head.
David: We got that one right.
Seth: We got that one right. Many people think the Median and the Persian empires are the second empire. And that would make sense because the next empire that comes and unplants Babylon is the Medes and the Persians.
David: Yes.
Seth: Within the text itself.
David: Right. And it's kind of like as a torso has two arms.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The Medes and the Persians are two empires.
Seth: Yep. And then even in some of the later prophecies in Daniel 8 and Daniel 9, it mentions the Medes and the Persians. So Daniel's interpreting itself. Okay.
David: Okay. Great. Helpful.
Seth: Uh, then a lot of people think the legs of iron is the Grecian Empire.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, again, technologically advanced, larger in scope. Antiochus Epiphanes was Greek.
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: And he is a version of the abomination of desolation, which we'll talk about later. But if you like, so like he's a moment in history where the worst parts of the apocalypse break through into history. And then who is the fourth empire?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Who's the most powerful and the most brutal empire? A lot of people think it's Rome. Why? Because that's when Jesus is born. He's born into the Roman Empire. And he begins this kingdom that swells up and takes over the world. Yes, it makes total sense. Yes. And from some of the clues— and we also have mentions of Greece later on in here. So it makes sense that the fourth empire would be the one that came after Greece, which is Rome, which is Rome. It makes sense.
David: Totally.
Seth: And there's even more details to make you think it's Rome. But that's one option.
David:Mm-hmm.
Seth: The other option is to think that the Book of Daniel ends with Greece and doesn't include Rome.
David: Right.
Seth: So you have Babylon, the Persian Empire, then the Median Empire, right? Then the Grecian Empire.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that's kind of backed up by the way chapters 10 and 11 talk to each other. There's this army with the north and the south. And there's this contemptible ruler who rises up, who causes a very famous phrase, the abomination that causes desolation.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Antiochus Epiphanes is famous for desecrating the temple by sacrificing a pig on it and importing the statue of Zeus and putting it in the temple.
David: So intense.
Seth: If you read the book of 1 and 2 Maccabees, it retells that story. If you ever celebrated Hanukkah, it's part of that narrative. It's one of the defining moments in Jewish history.
David: Yes.
Seth: So it makes sense that it could be that moment. That moment.
David: Right.
David: But at the end of the day,
Seth: at the end of the day,
David: number 3, in the list helps us with the ambiguity of number 4.
Seth: That's right.
David: Because the point is, the vision in a sense doesn't end with the clay feet. No, the statue keeps going. Yeah, it cycles again. Like, maybe, maybe we're meant to see Greece as the clay feet and then cycle back up to the head of Rome, right, for the gold again, because it, it lasted centuries after Jesus.
Seth: Yeah,
David: you know,
anyway, It doesn't— I don't want to say it doesn't matter. Of course it matters. But what matters more is how history tends to cycle, how— what Jesus is going to do when he comes back and what Jesus did the first time he came. Those matter more.
Seth: Those matter more.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the last one, is it Greece? Is it Rome? Is more speculative. It has to be more speculative. It's okay that it's speculative. It doesn't change the fact that the Son of Man sits on a throne above all kings.
David: Yes.
Seth: And this is also why I think it's helpful to read the chiasm in relationship to one another. Daniel 2 talks to Daniel 7, and Daniel 7 seems to be even more apocalyptic. There are monsters that rule the earth. There's a horn with 10 eyes on it. It's crazy. They come out of the sea, and then there's this Ancient of Days surrounded by thousands of holy ones, and somebody comes riding on the clouds. It is freaky. But what is the first truth that's communicating before all the other truths that it might be communicating? That God sits enthroned.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he is inviting someone to rule alongside of him.
David: Daniel itself is telling us to have this order in our theology, right, of Daniel.
Seth: So the first thing we know is like, God rules.
David: Yes.
Seth: And he's inviting his son Jesus to rule alongside him. He's giving him the kingdom of the world. And he is building a kingdom on this earth that will overtake all the empires of the world, no matter how brutal, How technologically advanced. That's the good news. The Kingdom of God.
David: So good. Yeah, I just want to, like, read for us as we close down this episode, because there's one more thing we need to do after this in the story.
Seth: Yeah, at least Daniel's promoted.
David: Yes. But as we, as we talk about Jesus being enthroned and that being the main point, that he's going to set up this mountain that covers the whole earth, there's all these allusions to Daniel 2 in Revelation 5, whenever they're looking for the person who can open the scroll of Daniel and finish reading it, finish the story. Yeah. And we'll get more to those details later. But for now, Revelation 5:11 and on, then I looked and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels numbering myriads and myriads and thousands of thousands saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb who was slain. Well, that seems weird. That seems like the inscrutable rock. It's like, why is the slain Lamb worthy? But listen here, he takes back the title that Daniel used to describe Nebuchadnezzar. Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and blessing. And I heard every creature— now this is again Back to, back to how Nebuchadnezzar is described, and I heard Daniel— how Daniel describes Nebuchadnezzar.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea. So all the creatures of the earth, the dominion, right? That's how Daniel describes Nebuchadnezzar. And they are saying, to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.
Seth: Amen.
David: It's like the good news of this is that the world empire that's going to be set up is going to be ruled by the slain lamb, Jesus. Uh, and he will ultimately be the one who gets all glory and might and wealth and power and wisdom. It will not fall to the kings of Babylon, but Jesus will ultimately claim it for himself because he was the slain sacrifice for us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, let's talk about the final thing here. We gotta wrap it up.
Seth: Yeah, so Daniel, so Daniel gives that interpretation to King Nebuchadnezzar.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Nebuchadnezzar sees that it's self-evidently true, apparently.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, he, like, he doesn't question it, which is— I, I keep like, why does he accept it so quickly?
David: Yeah, it seems like such a startling—
Seth: which is why I'm wondering if, like, it's a riddle. Oh, it's, you know, it's like, oh, once you understand what's going on, it's like what you said about the cut by no human hand could also be divine by no human wisdom, right? And it's a, it's a jab at the fact that none of the king's advisors can do it. It's like, oh, obviously, that's what it has to be. It because of what's happening right now.
David: There's no other ordering of the facts that would make sense. This has to be the interpretation, right?
Seth: And I wonder, even within Babylonian mythology, there's room for the cycle of world empires to end by the final, the final empire of the gods, right? That might be self-evidently true.
David: Yep. And he accepts it.
Seth: And he accepts it. Yeah. Regardless. And then he, King Nebuchadnezzar, pays homage to Daniel, which is— falls on his face and offers—
David: the golden head goes to the ground.
Seth: Right. And it's like, well, one, that's weird. Shouldn't he be bowing to God, who Daniel very clearly set up was like, this is not because of me. Yes, I am just delivering a message coming from God, bow to the God of the universe. But he bows to Daniel and commands that an offering and incense be offered up to him.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the king says, truly, your God is God of gods and Lord of kings and the revealer of mysteries because you've done this right.
David: And so this is a big deal because if you remember in the introduction episode and in our chapter 1 episode, we talked about Daniel being the hope for the restored worship of the temple. Are at the temple where the incense and the offerings have been suspended. No more incense, no more offerings, no more worship of God. It's been destroyed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But there's this, this priest apparently in Daniel, maybe, who is without blemish and who doesn't defile himself. He's being this new priest. And this is confirmed that he is this, this image of a priest of God, because the king of Babylon burns offerings and incense to Daniel in homage of him. Like, it's preluding— it's a hint.
Seth: It's a hint that God is setting up a new kingdom and a new temple in Daniel.
David: Yes.
Seth: And that even in exile, God has not abandoned his people. God is still providing a way for the true worship of God to go up from the Gentiles, from within the Gentiles.
David: And I don't think we're meant to be offended by Nebuchadnezzar offering incense and offerings to Daniel. I think that'd be easy to do, to be like, Why is he worshiping Daniel? Okay, obviously that would be wrong, right? But I think the image here, because his lips talk about God, God, yeah, God being the Lord of Lords and the God of God and the revealer of mysteries. So his praise is going to God alone. But the reason why I don't think we should be overly offended by the worship and the incense and the offerings happening before Daniel is because Daniel, the book, is going to set up that there is a Son of Man a human being who is going to be ascended above all the thrones, and he is going to be the one to whom offerings and incense are burned.
Seth: Yeah, this is Daniel 7. Yes, Daniel 7. A son of man, someone that's descendant of man,
David: the other side of the chiasm here,
Seth: is going to rise up, take a throne, and then all the nations, languages, and peoples of the world will worship him. All the Gentiles, all the people that are not Jewish, And here we get a picture of that. A son of man, Daniel,
David: being worshiped by the nations,
Seth: being worshiped by the nations as he's ascended above the astrologers. Yes. And then in a second here, he's going to make him ruler over the whole province of Babylon.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's ascending to his throne. Yeah.
David: And so, like, that's part— and like, there's two things I want to pull out here as we close. Like, one is the worship of Nebuchadnezzar here. And the praise of the people in chapter 7, or the angels or whomever, the holy ones. We're told throughout Scripture that our prayer and our praise are like incense before God. And so like, that is what we as the church do now. We as the church are offering burning incense to Jesus when we sing to him, when we pray before him, when we commune with him. Because he set up a new temple and it's us and it's him and he lives in us. And like our communion with him through the Holy Spirit is like burning incense in the temple of God thousands of years ago. Like it's that intimate and that real. And so that's like something that Daniel, I think, is inviting us into.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The other thing is this important theme of ascendancy. Right, that when someone obeys the will of God and trusts the revealer of mysteries, they are ascended to God's— to, you know, the person who thought he was God, Nebuchadnezzar, his right hand. But ultimately Jesus will be the one who obeys the will of God. And God had a mystery that somehow through a cross he'd save the world and that all nations, not just the Jews, would be invited into it. That was God's dream. That was God's mystery, right, from day one.
Seth: The Apostle Paul talks about the mystery of the Gentiles and the Jews worshiping the one true God as being the mystery of the gospel. Yeah, that's the mystery.
David: God had a dream since the beginning of the world, and that was that all nations revealed.
Seth: Yeah, until Jesus the rock. Yeah, the uncut rock undoes the, the empires of the world.
David: And so Jesus obeyed that mystery, revealed that dream here on earth, went to Jews, went to Gentiles, died for them. And then what happened? Exactly what happened to Daniel. He was ascended to the right hand of the one true God and given a throne above every throne.
Seth: Mm-hmm. So let me ask a question.
David: Okay.
Seth: I, I get all the typology. Okay. I get all— man, we talked about empires and kingdoms and my goodness, all the things. Um, I'm still a Jew. I'm still in exile. Ah, yes, under the thumb of Nebuchadnezzar. Sure, Daniel has been elevated above the magicians. He's the chief magician in Pharaoh— in Nebuchadnezzar's court. What's that doing for me right now? Like, sure, there's a representative doing powerful things in the courts, but like Why is that good news for me when I'm still in a slum in a back corner of Babylon?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You know, like,
David: yeah, definitely.
Seth: What's the hope for the beleaguered people of God?
David: Yeah.
Seth: As they see someone disconnected from them. And for us, 2,000 years into the past.
David: Yes.
Seth: What's the hope for people like that?
David: The hope is that there is hope. Daniel did not get to see this rock come, this uncut stone come,
Seth: right.
David: But he trusted that it would. Abraham, when he was called out of the land of Babylon to go live in the Promised Land, didn't get to see its fulfillment. David, when he wanted to build God's temple, didn't get to see it built. Like, this is the constant story of the Bible, that trust in the God who will bring to pass his promises despite what it looks like. Is what keeps us going. Um, the Bible in the New Testament will even say it's by this hope that we are saved. Like, our salvation is tied up in our ability to trust that God is going to do what he said he was going to do, even if we don't live to see it. And so the hope for the beleaguered Jew in exile when Daniel is being risen to ascendancy is that God is being true— proved as true and faithful and honest to his word, that God is the revealer of mysteries who does control the future. Therefore, even though I die, I know one day I will live in the new kingdom. So the hope is that there is a future hope.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Yeah. And that Babylon won't last forever.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the kingdom I belong to will. That's right. I might not live to see the day Babylon falls, but when I die, I join a different kingdom.
David: That's right. I do know Babylon will fall. And my kingdom will last forever. Yeah, so good. All right, well guys, that is the best we can do with Daniel 2.
Seth: I think it is.
David: And, uh, I'm excited to jump into Daniel 3 when the king's dream becomes a reality.
Seth: Yeah, come on, Nebuchadnezzar, you just have a dream about a statue being bowled over and then he builds the freaking statue in chapter 3. I feel like he might have been a little disingenuous in his prayer at the end of Daniel 2.
David: So, uh, and that's the fiery furnace.
Seth: That's the fiery—
David: so come back for the fiery furnace. And one like the Son of Man dwelling in the fire. Wow.
David: Okay, well, thank you guys for joining us, and we will see you next week.
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