Seth: [upbeat music] The statue of Daniel chapter 10 is a symbol of the same thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Who's in control? Jesus is in control.
David: Mm.
Seth: And in Revelation, we see that, yes, Jesus is God.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's the one who rules over the entire world. [upbeat music]
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about Him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our study in the Book of Daniel. Seth, how are you?
Seth: I'm wishing myself a happy April Fools'.
David: Ooh, yeah. Today is April 1st.
Seth: It'll be belated for all of our friends-
David: Yes
Seth: ... [laughs] uh-
David: Listening [laughs] to this.
Seth: But-
David: But yes
Seth: ... I just keep laughing about our April Fools' video that went live today. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: I've watched it a couple different times. [laughs]
David: I have too. I watched it with my family this morning. If you haven't watched it, Seth and I did a, um-
Seth: So many dad jokes
David: ... like the top 40-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... at least in our categories-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... uh, Bible jokes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it was really fun, and uh, you should go watch it on YouTube. It's, it was fun.
Seth: So I'm just feeling humorous as we come into the last two centuries of-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... Israel's history and the last two chapters of Daniel.
David: Oh, yes. Three chapters.
Seth: Three chapters.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Three chapters.
David: So what's the, the plan is to, to talk through chapter 10 today.
Seth: Chapter 10 today.
David: And then try to attack 11 and 12 next week.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: They are technically one unit.
David: Right.
Seth: Chapter 10 introduces this giant metal man-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... who gives a vision that is, goes all the way through chapter 11, and then part the way into 12, and then there's some final questions that angels and Daniel start asking the figure that's about to be described.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then the book ends.
David: Okay.
Seth: So it's all one unit.
David: This is, this is the end.
Seth: But like, there's a lot to talk about.
David: Okay. So, uh, what are we coming from? Like, position us in the book-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and, and what are we entering into?
Seth: We've just come from a series of apocalyptic visions. And so we've talked about the apocalyptic genre a couple different times, um, on the podcast so far.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But functionally, in the ancient Near East, the apocalyptic genre of writing was done to prove the supremacy of one god over another. And so what we've had over the course of these last couple weeks that we've been in Daniel are these, Daniel's own apocalyptic prayers, apocalyptic visions that prove the supremacy of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... over all the other gods of the nations.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We had that with... And then you have terrifying beings. You have rams with giant horns and a unigoat.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then we had this crazy vision of a 70 weeks, uh, this prophecy about when the end will come, and f- atonement will happen, and ultimate forgiveness will be ushered in.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so the heels of all this, we get another one of those apocalyptic visions.
David: Okay. And that's what we're about to see in this video.
Seth: And that's what we're about to see.
David: Okay. So walk us into this apocalyptic vision that we see in the third year of Cyrus, King of Persia.
Seth: So Daniel has spent the last three weeks mourning.
David: Mm.
Seth: So presumably, we don't know why, but presumably, according to chapter 9, he was mourning over the sin of Israel, like he was-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... lamenting and repenting and asking God to come and rescue Israel. So maybe he's still mourning over his lost homeland.
David: Right.
Seth: It makes sense.
David: Could be for any number of reasons.
Seth: Could be for any number of reasons.
David: He's, he's in a rough spot in exile there. Yeah.
Seth: And what's interesting, in verse 3, he says, "He ate no delicacies, no meat or wine entered his mouth."
David: Mm.
Seth: Uh, which is kind of similar how we were introduced to Daniel-
David: Right
Seth: ... back in chapter 1.
David: The Daniel diet. [laughs]
Seth: The Daniel diet. And back then, it precipitated him rising to power.
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: He, it was his favor, like, was shown through that test of not eating any of these things, and he rose to power. So like, oh, if I see this now, I- I'm kind of expecting another miraculous event to happen. Daniel, faithful, he's not eating. He's fasting. He's waiting for the Lord's direction.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then he gets it.
David: Okay, that makes sense.
Seth: Yep.
David: Yep.
Seth: Stay-
David: And so he, he goes through this time of mourning and fasting, and then what does he see?
Seth: So on the 24th day of the first month, he's on the bank of a river, the River Tigris, and he lifts up in a h- uh, his eyes, and he sees a man clothed in linen with a belt of gold. His body is like beryl, a precious stone. His face looks like lightning. His eyes are flaming torches. His arms and legs are the, have the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words sounds like a multitude. And Daniel himself is with two other men-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who do not see the vision-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but are so overcome with a sense of spiritual power-
David: Oh
Seth: ... they start trembling, shaking, and then running away.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Daniel himself faints or goes into a coma for a period of time.
David: Okay.
Seth: And that's the start of the vision. [laughs]
David: Okay, coming out, coming out a little strong.
Seth: Com- coming out str- God's coming out strong. Um.
David: Okay, so Daniel's fasting. He's mourning. He's walking around with two other dudes, goes to a river. Any significance to the river and the location itself? Like, why are they there? What's the point?
Seth: Well-
David: What's the point?
Seth: ... I don't know if the river necessarily is an important, like, marker. I didn't think of anything.
David: Mm.
Seth: However, the prophet Ezekiel is walking along the, another river-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when he sees a very similar vision to this, and actually uses some, and Daniel uses some of the same language that Ezekiel uses-
David: I see
Seth: ... to-Uh, describe his experience with a spiritual being.
David: Yeah, yeah. Ezekiel's kind of location, I remember him being, like, on the banks of Babylon, basically.
Seth: Yeah.
David: On the shores of Babylon.
Seth: He's in exile too.
David: I- in exile, but, you know, he lived on the hinge moment before-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Israel's temple was destroyed, and then got the news that it was destroyed, and then had to deal with the fallout.
Seth: Right.
David: And so he's standing on the banks of Babylon going, um, "I'm waiting to return. I'm expecting to return soon." Um-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but then he gets word that it's destroyed, and so he's, like, straddling the line between-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... home and exile.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so now we see Daniel at that similar location-
Seth: Mm
David: ... dealing with the idea of, "How do I get out of exile? When will we go home?"
Seth: Right. And-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if you remember, this is during the reign of King Cyrus. You already said it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So some of the decrees about Israel going back to their homeland have already happened.
David: That's right.
Seth: People are starting to rebuild the temple.
David: Ezra, Nehemiah's stuff is going on.
Seth: And, like, if you know the story of Ezra, Nehemiah, it's not, like, a totally clean story.
David: No.
Seth: It's fraught with problems. Maybe Daniel's mourning over the, like, start and stop nature of the rebuild.
David: Yeah, they rebuild the foundation of the temple and then weep because it's not very impressive.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: So it's like we... I mean, again-
David: Yeah, we don't know
Seth: ... so-
David: But okay, but back to Ezekiel.
Seth: Yeah, there's connections with the Prophet Ezekiel. In Ezekiel 1:4, here's how Ezekiel describes his vision of God.
David: Okay.
Seth: He says, "And as I looked, behold, a wind came out of the north and a great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually. And in the midst of the fire were, was gleaming metal." So, and then in verse 7 it says, "The legs of this image of God were straight and the soles of its feet were like calf's foot and they sparkled like burnished bronze."
David: Mm.
Seth: It's the same phrase used in the Book of Daniel to describe this vision of God who has lightning for eyes and brightness around him and whose legs are of burnished, gleaming burnished bronze.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So probably a couple things. So what, what we should just name, Daniel sees a vision of God.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And it's like the vision Ezekiel sees.
David: Right.
Seth: Ezekiel's vision's a little different. He sees God also like an animal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which makes sense because the all-powerful beings of the world are often described as, like, big beasts and things.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, he's seeing a picture of God. So it makes sense that he just faints. [laughs]
David: [laughs] I guess. But yes.
Seth: Justified.
David: Justified.
Seth: Justified, justified fainting at the sight of the omnipotent God who rules over all things.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I think it's important to draw on the Ezekiel connection because who is Daniel seeing?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Daniel never tells us that it, that it's God.
David: Right.
Seth: But the fact that he's borrowing language from Ezekiel's depiction of God makes us think this, he's probably seeing an image of God.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: And I think we should also think about the metal man we saw in Nebuchadnezzar's vision in-
David: The big, the big statue
Seth: ... the big statue in Daniel chapter 2. You had this giant statue-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... that was made of different types of metal.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it represented the kingdoms of the world ruling over the world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... until all of a sudden it was crashed by this other stone. And then what, what happens in the next chapter, Daniel chapter 3, we have that metal man, the image of Nebuchadnezzar set up in Babylon to prove what? That Nebuchadnezzar is the true sovereign of the whole world.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I think these images of, like, oh, this is God, he's described somewhat like a statue. There's lightning, which is a common way to think about God in the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Bible in general. It's, uh, this is a new statue. It's a new statue, a new Go- like, a new depiction of God who proves that he is sovereign over the whole world.
David: I see, because in the same way that, that, you know, the vision, uh, that Nebuchadnezzar had kind of worked from the top to the bottom and described-
Seth: Uh-huh
David: ... the different sections of this person.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Oh, his head was made of this, its body was made of this, its, its waist was made of this, its legs of this, its-
Seth: Yep, yep
David: ... feet of this. You kind of have similar descriptors.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: What was his body made out of? Beryl. You know, what, what was, what was on its head? Oh, lightning and torches. What were his legs made out of? Burnished bronze that were gleaming.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I was like, okay, so-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... he's describing a new sectioned statue-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that is now going to show you it's not the king of Babylon who's king of the world, it's whoever this is.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: This is the true God of the universe.
David: I, I understand.
Seth: This is the true God of the world, yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: But as we said, Daniel faints.
David: Right, right, okay, yeah.
Seth: He, he, he can't, he can't handle it.
David: Which is, which, I don't know.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is probably reading too much into it, but it is kinda funny that before the statue of, that Nebuchadnezzar raised, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego would refuse to fall down.
Seth: Mm.
David: But before the God Almighty-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... the true metal man, Daniel cannot help but fall down. [laughs]
Seth: Right. It just-
David: It just happens.
Seth: It, it's over.
David: It's involuntary. [laughs]
Seth: It's inevitable. [laughs] And then all of a sudden, "A hand touches me," Daniel, and sets Daniel to trembling on his hands and knees, and he says to me, "O Daniel, man greatly loved."
David: Mm.
Seth: "Understand the words that I speak to you and stand upright, for now I have been sent to you." And so you have this image, so Daniel's passed out. A hand touches Daniel. Daniel gets to his hands and knees. A, another spiritual being, uh, the same spiritual being?
David: Right.
Seth: It's not entirely clear. He speaks a word of comfort to Daniel, says, "You're deeply loved." That word is actually the word coveted, like deeply coveted-
David: Oh
Seth: ... deeply desired by God. God desires to encourage you in this moment of mourning.
David: God's jealous for you.
Seth: Right. This vision that just made you faint is actually for your encouragement.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, that's, that's what he's communicating here, like you're not seeing this image to kill you-
David: Mm, makes sense
Seth: ... which is what happened with Nebuchadnezzar.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You saw the image, you didn't bow, you died.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: He saw the image. He died in a sense.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: He fainted. He lost consciousness.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But then he's touched, resurrected.
David: Oh.
Seth: This isn't for your death.
David: Mm.
Seth: This is for your comfort and for your encouragement.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then Daniel's able to get back onto his feet, and the, this being says, "Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard."
David: Okay.
Seth: So three weeks ago when you started praying, we started responding.
David: Ah.
Seth: "I have come because of your words."
David: Okay.
Seth: So this vision is a response to Daniel's persistent prayer over the last 21 days.
David: Gotcha.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. But the question-Like, as you're reading through, it's like, whose hand is this?
Seth: Right.
David: Is it, is this the barrel man?
Seth: The barrel man? The, the-
David: The, the man of, of, with-
Seth: Oh, the barrel man. I thought you meant like barrel-chested [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, you know, like made of barrels.
David: The s- the body of barrel.
Seth: Body barrel. Uh-
David: The body barrel man.
Seth: Is he the metal man? Maybe.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So a lot of, there's a lot of debate about this, whether or not this is the same person. Like, if this is God, now God touches him-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and lifts him up and is encouraging him, saying, "No, I'm here not for your terror-
David: Right
Seth: ... but for your encouragement."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It could also be an angel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We've already had an angel, Gabriel, in an earlier vision tell Daniel the same thing, that he's a man deeply loved by God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... deeply desired for by God.
David: I see.
Seth: So it's unclear.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We don't know. Maybe it's an image of God and then an angel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... two different visions, or maybe it's the same thing. It's not entirely clear.
David: Okay.
Seth: But we get a new piece of information in verse 13. So I think the question I would have too is like, well, why'd it take three weeks?
David: Right. If you've been hearing me and I've been asking you to come to my aid or show me something-
Seth: Right
David: ... why three weeks?
Seth: And then the a- the angel, the spiritual being responds, "Well, the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me 21 days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia." And I-
David: Jake, Jake, is that, is this Jake Gyllenhaal?
Seth: This Jake... [laughs] The, the Disney movie with Jake Gyllenhaal-
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: ... who plays Prince of Persia?
David: Prince of Persia. It was a, it was a, it was a video game first.
Seth: It was a video game.
David: The Prince of Persia.
Seth: I forgot about that.
David: Yeah. And it was, like, a parkour video game. You, like, hopped around Persia. Like, I don't know what you did, but I, I used to play it.
Seth: Yeah. I never did.
David: And then they made a movie about it.
Seth: That's really funny.
David: But this isn't talking about-
Seth: This isn't talking about that
David: ... the, the political person-
Seth: I don't think so
David: ... who's on the throne, the prince of Persia-
Seth: Yes
David: ... a, a human.
Seth: I don't think so.
David: So then what's it talking about?
Seth: Well, let me just read the l- last part of that verse.
David: Okay.
Seth: "And ca- I, so I came. I was held back for a time by the prince of Persia, but now I'm here to tell you what's going to happen in these latter days."
David: Mm.
Seth: "It's a vision for the days yet to come." So, like, that's, that's just the full context of what's happening here. Daniel is praying for something, mourning for something. The angelic host, the spiritual beings of heaven, rush to respond. They're prevented by the prince of Persia, which I think is a spiritual entity.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The prince of Persia, the spiritual prince of Persia-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the demonic or angelic being that is guarding the-
David: The territory of Persia
Seth: ... the territory of Persia. They break through, and they're finally able to tell Daniel, "Okay, here's what's about to happen-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the land."
David: Yes.
Seth: So a couple big things we just opened up there.
David: We just kinda just said.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: Yeah. Um, the one is, hold on a second. Territorial princes. W- what, what are we talking about here?
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know. Now, now first off, it's not foreign to the Bible to say that a spiritual being that rules over an area of the Earth is called-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a prince.
Seth: Mm.
David: This is in Ephesians 2.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, you know, you have Satan called the prince of the power of the air.
Seth: Yeah. And back in the book of Deuteronomy 32, uh, verses 8 and 9, you get this really kind of odd understanding by, um, Moses of what he believes is happening around the globe at any given time.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He says, "The Most High," meaning God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "has given the nations their inheritance, and he divided mankind and fixed their numbers, fixed the borders of the people according to the number of the sons of God."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Which is an odd phrase for us in English, but for them it would've been like he's handed over kingdoms-
David: Yep
Seth: ... to people, to spiritual beings, to sons of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... to princes.
David: Yeah. How many countries were there in the world when Moses was writing that? Whatever that number was, which, you know-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we kinda usually contend to 70 or 72.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, why were, why were there that many? Oh, the geopolitical situations led to that, and people formed borders, la-da-da-da-da. No. The way Moses saw it was because there were 70 princes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... angelic beings that God was going to give territory over for them to rule. And so he separated the, the world up into that number so that each angelic prince had-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... territory to be sovereign over.
Seth: Yeah. And the other prophets will talk this way about human conflicts too. It's never just a physical king against-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... another physical king. There are physical kings involved, but there's also spiritual powers behind the powers. This is the way that Isaiah says it in chapter 24. He says, "On that day," of this great coming battle-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "the Lord will punish the host of heaven"-
David: Ah
Seth: ... "in heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth."
David: Yep.
Seth: "They will be gathered together," and he continues that they'll-
David: Right
Seth: ... be destroyed. So, like, the Bible understands that when battles are happening, particularly when it impacts the people of God, there isn't just political nations fighting against political nations.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's also spiritual beings animating the pride, brutality, uh, and warfare-
David: Right
Seth: ... of one nation against another.
David: That's right, which fits into the apocalyptic genre itself.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because oftentimes, and we've said this before if you've been listening through the series on Daniel here, oftentimes, let's say, one nation goes out and fights another nation. Nation A goes out and fights nation B. Nation A wins. Well, they're going to write an apocalyptic epic about their victory over nation B.
Seth: Right.
David: But nation A is going to say something like, "And our god, who looks like an eagle with the horns-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of a bull-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... rode out on the field, and across the field was another thing that looked like a fox with the wings of a griffin."
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: "And they battled, and our eagle, uh, go- god tore him down."
Seth: I like to think of my nation's god as, like, a penguin-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... with the head of a hedgehog. [laughs]
David: [laughs] But yeah, that's exactly right.
Seth: Yes. Right.
David: They would go, and they would fight, and then the prince of Persia-
Seth: Right
David: ... would have defeated the prince-
Seth: Yep
David: ... of Israel.
Seth: The spiritual authority, the god, the lower-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the lowercase G god-
David: ... of nation A-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... would beat the lowercase g god of nation B.
Seth: And so what you have here then is the angel of God or God himself saying, "I've done battle with one of these spiritual forces. I've broken through. I've been victorious over them, and now I'm here to comfort you with more knowledge about what's to come, not just on Earth, but in the heavens as well."
David: Okay, so hold on. Let me- let me say that back to you.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 'Cause so- so Daniel's praying, and an angel is like, "Oh, I need to come respond to him" so he starts heading his way but gets detained by another prince or-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... spiritual being, has to do battle with him for three weeks-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... finally beats him, and then gets to Daniel.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: I don't- I don't have the worldview-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... to- to support this. [laughs]
Seth: Try to live in the world of the Bible. Moses had this worldview. Apparently Isaiah did as well, and, and Daniel does too.
David: I know. It's cool. I just love when the Bible challenges our worldview.
Seth: Right.
David: It's just like, "You need to think about the world differently."
Seth: And this also s- makes me think that whoever Daniel's talking to i- in this moment isn't the metal man. It's another being-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that's, like, coming to communicate on behalf of the metal man.
David: Right, 'cause I feel like if this metal man, wh- which we've said is God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... an image of God, he would've just kicked the prince of Persia in its teeth.
Seth: Right. He doesn't-
David: You know? [laughs]
Seth: He doesn't need-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... time in order to do so.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um-
David: He rules over all those princes.
Seth: Right. But okay.
David: Okay.
Seth: So then Daniel's told that all this spiritual battle has been going on behind the scenes, but don't worry, the armies of God are being vi- victorious, and I've come to you to tell you what's about to happen. And then verse 15, "And then when he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face to the ground, and I was mute." [laughs] Like, he's like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... "I cannot handle the amount of information I am being given right now." [laughs]
David: There's a similar reaction-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to the words of this- of this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... spiritual being that he does to the appearance of the metal man.
Seth: Right, which mean- which means that maybe it is the same person.
David: Sure.
Seth: You know?
David: Yep.
Seth: "And then behold, one in the likeness of the children of men" similar phrasing to, like, one like the Son of Man-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... back in Daniel 7. "He touched my lips" which is, again, another prophetic image that we have in the Bible in Isaiah. Isaiah, an angel comes and touches Isaiah's lip with a coal to purify him.
David: Yep.
Seth: So now an angelic being is coming and touching him, and it strengthens him. He stands up before the Lord, and he says to God, he admits his weakness. "Lord, by the reason of the visions you've given me, I have no strength." [laughs] How on earth can you talk to me? "No strength remains in me." And then another being or the same one with the appearance of a Son of Man touches him again and strengthens him, and he repeats the same thing. "O man" greatly loved, greatly desired, greatly coveted by God, "fear not. Peace be with you. Be strong and of good courage." Um, so I just wanna, like, stop there for a second. Like, that's the purpose of this vision.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, when we come to this and start to sh- talk about where do we find Jesus, what's the meaning of this vision, what does it represent, the purpose of it is peace, strength, and courage.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's mo- meant to give Daniel peace, strength, and courage in a moment of mourning. And then right after that, we're given the content of basically the next chapter and a half-
David: Mm
Seth: ... uh, in two sentences.
David: Okay.
Seth: So should I go there right now?
David: Um, yeah. I mean, let's finish out the chapter here, uh, and especially because we're like, okay, these... the- the- the princes are fighting and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but, like, what's the st- I'm curious. Like, what's the state of Israel's prince?
Seth: Oh, right.
David: Like-
Seth: Right, right, right, right. Okay, so here-
David: 'Cause they're in Babylon. [laughs]
Seth: Right, yeah. So here... so the- the content of the vision is summarized in these two verses, and here's what the being says.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, "Do you know why that I've come to you? I have returned to fight against the prince of Persia" which he's already described.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "And when I go out, behold, the prince of Greece will come" another spiritual being, "but I tell you that it is inscribed in the book of truth that no one fights beside me except Michael your prince." [laughs]
David: Mm.
Seth: And those two verses give us, like, the, a summary of everything that's about to happen-
David: In the last two chapters
Seth: ... in the last two chapters.
David: Okay.
Seth: But what's interesting there is, like, for now, after the vision of this metal man and these angelic beings, we have a framing of what's to come around the spiritual powers at work in the world. The prince of Persia exists, but he's gonna fall to the prince of Greece, and don't worry, Daniel, Michael is still by your side.
David: Mm.
Seth: So why do you think Michael would be good news to Daniel this... We, we keep talking about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I'm like, okay, it's already a stretch for me-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... to get to that there are princes that overlook different world empires-
David: Right
Seth: ... and they're battling with God. That's already-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a big deal.
David: Totally.
Seth: But why would Daniel be encouraged by one of these beings saying to him, "But don't worry, no one fights by my side except Michael your prince"?
David: Well, it's weird 'cause he mentions it in 13 too. He's like, "I was fighting the kingdom of Persia and was withstood, but then Michael-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... came to help me." And it's like, hold on a second. I thought that when kingdoms fell in this-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ancient worldview and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in apocalyptic literature, when king- when kingdoms fell, their spiritual princes were slain along with them.
Seth: I think-
David: Like, the gods of the nations died whenever the nation itself died, so I thought Michael maybe was dead or severely wounded-
Seth: Right
David: ... or maybe not ready for a fight.
Seth: I mean, I think, uh, the average person in the ancient Near East would have read one of these apocalyptic tales, and Ba- Babylon has their own. There's one called, um, oh, I forget the name of it now, but you can l- you can look up one of these-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... tales that Babylon has. And, like, they'll... "M- our gods came to Israel and destroyed their gods."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it seems as if Michael seems to be, like, the chief of the angels, the chief of the heavenly hosts.
David: Mm.
Seth: So one way that Babylon could have described it was like, "Our gods went in and destroyed Michael."
David: Right.
Seth: "Destroyed the prince of Israel. No... There's no spiritual protector left-
David: Mm
Seth: ... over Israel."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what's interesting about this is in a moment where Daniel might be feeling the weight of that worldview-I'm surrounded... Like, I can't go anywhere without seeing a different god on a Babylonia- or a, not a... At that point, it was a Persian wall.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Can't go... So different Persian gods all around me, and then he hears, "No, the spiritual being over Israel is still in control, and the metal man that is God himself is still standing."
David: Yeah.
Seth: The statue has not fallen.
David: Right.
Seth: The spiritual beings are not overthrown.
David: Right.
Seth: They're all still active.
David: Yeah, because Babylon's god defeated Israel's lowercase G gods, you know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... Michael, for instance.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But then Persia-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... they came in and beat Babylon. How much stronger than Babylon must this, this Persian god, this P- this Prince of Persia must be? Um, and Michael might be dead. But then all of a sudden, Michael and this other person Daniel's talking to defeat and-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... get through and are not able to be withheld by the Prince of Persia, no matter how-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... strong it seems that he is, and they're able to get through and come speak to the people of God.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I'm like, oh, this is a foreshadowing of the, the fact that Israel will be able to rise out of their oppressor's grip.
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's exactly right.
David: Because why? Because the gods were able to get through. The princes were able to get through.
Seth: Right.
David: They, they were not defeated. They're not dead.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And in fact, they're strong enough to beat the other gods.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, that's just cool.
Seth: It's really cool. It's, it's c- it... This chapter, in one sense, it's just an introduction to the long thing that you're about to read in Daniel 11. But like, there's so much loaded into it that I think we're like... It's taken me a long time to see what we're talking about here because it's kind of like buried beneath like three or four layers of worldview that I-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... don't quite share, but that's exactly right. Daniel is mourning. He's in exile in Persia. He was just told that it'll be 70 times sevens before Israel's sins are forgiven. He's mourning.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And Persia is in power. Israel's in ruins. Oh yeah, Ezra and Nehemiah have gone out there, but, like, the temple restoration project is, is kind of, like, not great.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, things look bad. Is God still in control?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, does he still reign?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Are his powers still on the throne? And everything in these first introductory passages hint to the fact that, yes, God's still in control, spiritual powers have not been defeated yet, and God is so powerful that he's not just beating the gods of other nations, he's telling the g- when the gods of other nations can actually come and attack. Did you catch that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: In verse 20, he says, "I'm gonna go fight the Prince of Persia, and when I go out, behold, the Prince of Greece will come." W- he's saying... Normally, we've talked about it multiple times now, Babylon goes and fights the other gods. They win. The Babylonian god is never saying, "Hey, come here. I know and am in charge of all the gods of all the other worlds, and I can dictate who battles who when."
David: No.
Seth: That-
David: It's breaking the rules.
Seth: It's breaking the rules of what, what the gods are supposed to do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the apocalyptic genre in general does not claim omnipotence for a single god.
David: No.
Seth: The apocalyptic genre assumes polytheism. There's hundreds of gods, and-
David: Yep
Seth: ... some gods can kill other gods, defeat other spiritual beings, and have supremacy for a time before being overshadowed by another. But the apocalyptic genre, as in the mouth of Daniel and as in, as in the mouth of these angels, is, no, God determines where the angels go, which kingdom rules when, and he's ruling over them all. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we've kind of outlined chapter 10. We've, we've set up all the, all the characters-
Seth: Gospel dominoes
David: ... and the gospel dominoes. Let, let's knock them down. What, what are... How do we see Jesus in a very crazy story like this where you have a fiery man and angels fighting angels and... What's the, what, what's the good news here in chapter 10 of Daniel?
Seth: Well, we said it all the way back in our podcast on Daniel chapter 2, that the true statue of the world, the true image of God that rules over the world is Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: And we're seeing a similar thing play out here. Who is this metal man, this man of gemstones and thunder and lightning? Um, I think it's an image of Jesus.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I think the Apostle John agrees with me.
David: Right.
Seth: In the Book of Revelation, uh, John himself sees a vision of God, and he borrows all this language from Daniel to describe Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: So let me just read it to you from Revelation 1:13 and 18. "And in the midst, in the middle of the lampstands, there was one like a son of man"
David: Mm.
Seth: Daniel language.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "Clothed with a long robe and a golden sash. The hairs of his head were white like wool and like snow. His eyes were a flame of fire," just like they're here. They look like furnaces here. "His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze," same description.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Isn't that interesting? There's another furnace reference, just like in Daniel chapter 3. We're in the same universe. "And his voice was like the roar of many waters."
David: Like-
Seth: "Voice of a multitude"
David: ... a multitude.
Seth: A- yeah. So, like, what do we... So when the Apostle John sees a vision of Jesus-
David: He sees Daniel's vision
Seth: ... he sees Daniel's vision.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And the... Or the other way to say it is, like, he doesn't know quite what to make of it except to borrow all the language Daniel uses-
David: Oh
Seth: ... of his vision of God to describe what Jesus is like when he's coming in glory.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if, if the statue in Daniel chapter 2 was meant to be a symbol of who's in control, the statue of Daniel chapter 10 is a symbol of the same thing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Who's in control? Jesus is in control.
David: Mm.
Seth: And in Revelation, we see that, yes, Jesus is God.
David: Mm.
Seth: He's the one who rules over the entire world.
David: What is happening with these descriptions? Because, um-I've heard it a couple of ways. One is John or Daniel are seeing something so overwhelming that they have to use the raw material of the Earth and the things that they're familiar with to try to explain the extravagance of what they're seeing.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: They're not trying to get you... They're not painting a literal picture of what they're seeing, but they're trying to say, like, "His eyes were so beautiful, they were like this."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Or, "I was so overwhelmed with this presence, it was like standing before a fire."
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's not exactly what he looks like, you know-
Seth: Right
David: ... but it's, um, the, the closest approximation I can find metaphorically to describe what it was like to stand before it. That's one version I've heard.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: The other version is all of the things mean something, so it's not describing what he saw-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's describing who he is.
Seth: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
David: So, like, why describe Jesus like this?
Seth: I think you're right. I think it's like the author... You can't contain God with words.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is a true fact. [laughs]
David: [laughs] This is true. You've spoken wisely.
Seth: This is a true fact. So you have to scour your vocabulary-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for the things that... Your- scour your universe for descriptors that make sense of that God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But you could use a whole universe of words to do so. Instead, you have to choose. You can only say it in 30 words, and you have to be very specific about which words you choose.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the words I think Daniel chooses and the words John chooses are really intentional to demonstrate something about the character of God. I don't think you can say anything other than that.
David: Mm.
Seth: The fact that he's wearing linen suggests that he's a priest-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that God is a priest somehow-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because linen is what the priests of God wore as they entered into the temple.
David: Right.
Seth: And it's what Jesus wore as he died on the cross, as a priest for all humankind.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Something that's like beryl or chrysolite, depending on, like, your translation. It's like bright, bright, bright green.
David: Mm.
Seth: Also, if I'm not mistaken, one of the gemstones on the ephod of the priests as you walked into the temple. Burnished bronze is a symbol of a kingdom, but also, like, a weapon of war. It's like, y-
David: Mm
Seth: ... fire and lightning. Where did that happen? On the top of Mount Sinai.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like these are all, like, images to tell you something different about the character of God.
David: Yeah. That's helpful. I can't, I couldn't help but think, um, about the amazing truth of the incarnation then.
Seth: Mm.
David: That on both sides of the incarnation when Jesus became flesh, right?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: On both sides of the incarnation, we meet Jesus like the metal man.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You've got Daniel seeing him, and he faints, and it's just too extravagant.
Seth: Mm.
David: You've got John seeing him, and he freaks out, you know? It's just like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... but then-
Seth: Paul sees him, and he's not allowed to speak about it. [laughs]
David: Yeah. And he goes blind.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: But then people see him when he's a human-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and they eat with him, touch his feet.
Seth: Mm.
David: And you know, like-
Seth: And each one of those things tell us something about the character of God.
David: Right.
Seth: That he, God desires to eat a meal with us.
David: Right.
Seth: That God humbles himself to clean the feet of his own disciples. The fact, you know, like-
David: Yeah, it just, what's amazing is God could have chosen to reveal his son to us the way he revealed-
Seth: Mm
David: ... himself to Daniel-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and to John in Revelation. It could have been this bright, terrifying figure that everyone would have bound, bowed before out of fear-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and utter terror.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But instead, the ultimate way that we were, are supposed to see the image of God is in a human-
Seth: Mm
David: ... who did the things that Jesus did, said the things Jesus said, died the way Jesus died.
Seth: Mm. You know, it makes sense to me that God would reveal himself like a metal man.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it makes some sort of imaginative sense. Oh, God is all-powerful-
David: Right
Seth: ... so he's got feet of bronze, like all my weapons are made out of. I've got-
David: Yes
Seth: ... he's got eyes like lightning because his gaze is piercing, and it will scorch you. Like, you know, like, it makes sense to me that God is a burning metal man.
David: Yes.
Seth: It does not make sense to me that God becomes flesh.
David: No. And it didn't make sense to Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar is trying to flip the equation.
Seth: Mm.
David: He's saying, "I'm just a man, but I'm going to give myself the image of a statue."
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: "So I'm going to make this statue. I'm going to be what God alone is."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: But then God actually is the metal man, is the burning-
Seth: Mm
David: ... fiery figure-
Seth: Right
David: ... and then becomes like a human, like Nebuchadnezzar.
Seth: Mm.
David: He's humble instead of proud. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is the kind of characteristic you would want to define a reality as terrifying as what Daniel saw.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You wouldn't want a burning metal man-
Seth: At least-
David: ... who was not humble.
Seth: If there is a sovereign of the universe-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... who controls all the spiritual powers of all the nations-
David: Right
Seth: ... and who tells Greece and Persia when to fight, and, like, who-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you know, like, if you... That person, you would expect him to be pretty awfully terrifying.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he, he off, actually-
David: He is
Seth: ... he re- he reveals himself that way.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is terrifying. But the preeminent way that God, the metal man, chooses to reveal himself is in human flesh.
David: Right. And even to Daniel, after the crazy vision, what happens? A, a hand touches him, and he's told-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that he's deeply loved.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, but Jesus comes and does that to all of us himself.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He's like, "I am the metal man, [laughs] the, the fiery being, and yet I'm gonna come to you with a human hand and touch you and tell you that you're deeply loved."
Seth: Mm.
David: "I'm both. I'm the lion and the lamb."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "I am the metal man and the human that died on a cross."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you wouldn't want anybody else being the sovereign of the universe. What a beautiful thing that we have in Jesus. Wow.
Seth: I've got another thought-
David: Okay
Seth: ... as we think about this. I love the image of Jesus as both metal and flesh, but I'm also thinking, and I think we named it already, is that Jesus is, like, the first international deity.
David: Oh, sure, sure, sure.
Seth: Like-
David: Everybody, everybody so far has had national deities
Seth: Right.
David: The Prince of Persia.
Seth: Right.
David: Israel has Michael.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: But Jesus-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... tells Persia when to come.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He tells Greece when to come. He assigns Israel its Michael.
David: Mm.
Seth: I think we said it before, it's like none of the other gods in their apocalyptic literature are claiming omnipotence. They're just claiming superiority.
David: Yes.
Seth: But Jesus comes on the scene and says, "No, I am sovereign over all spiritual beings and all gods." And so I also think, like, man, like, as I think of, like, the true metal man being Jesus in the flesh-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Him as the sovereign over me, really powerful.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, I need someone, when I see the chaos of world empires, to touch me and say, "Oh, man, deeply loved."
David: Mm.
Seth: "I'm gonna tell you things for your courage and your comfort and for your strength." Right? Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... I need that. I am- as a person, as a human. But I also need to think about the metal man who is also God made flesh, who is also in control of spiritual realities.
David: Mm.
Seth: Why is it good news that Jesus is in control of spiritual powers behind the powers, the ones that I can't see?
David: Mm.
Seth: I wanna try to inhabit that world a little bit more than I do right now, 'cause it's, like, it's easy enough for me to be like, "Oh, yeah, the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece." But, like, when I'm thinking about, like, Russia and America-
David: Right
Seth: ... I'm not... I'm like, I'm only thinking geopolitically.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I'm not thinking that Jesus is the international deity over both.
David: Right.
Seth: And why is the fact that Jesus is a, a sovereign over the spiritual powers, over the world powers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... good news?
David: I, yeah. I think it's because, think about the Abrahamic blessing.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That in the descendant of Abraham, all nations will be blessed.
Seth: Mm.
David: Because every other deity over the other nations, all these spiritual beings, these princes, what do they have in, in, in mind? Their own superiority, the flourishment of their own people. I'm gonna go conquer that god, expand my borders.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But Jesus being the international deity has all nations' benefit in mind.
Seth: Mm.
David: Because He is the fulfillment of the covenant made to Abraham that all nations will be blessed. And so why is it good news that Jesus is the son, son, son, son, son, son of Abraham? It's because through Him, all nations are blessed. Because He's the international deity that decrees it so.
Seth: I'm thinking, too, like, Jesus as the metal man who comes in the flesh to me personally in the middle of international conflict.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Comfortable.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's good. I need that comfort, that courage, that strengthening. Um, but if I end there, I only have a Jesus that gets me through the next geopolitical conflict.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But if there are as many little G gods over as many countries as there are, and Jesus is saying one day they'll be all wiped out.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's a different kinda comfort and a different kind of peace. It's not a peace in the middle of exile-
David: No
Seth: ... and the, a peace in the middle of geopolitical conflict. It's this ultimate peace that all the enemies of God, all the spiritual one that's... Any war that you've ever known, any geopolitical conflict you've ever known has been animated by some dark force behind the scene.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that will always be the case. But don't worry, I'm in charge.
David: Mm.
Seth: Good news.
David: Yeah.
Seth: One day those powers will be gone too.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And there'll be no more wars either because there will be no more spiritual powers besides me alone.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's why, that's why, like, I was als- Like, it ratchets up the significance of Jesus as the international deity because one day He'll be the only one and all other gods will be destroyed.
David: Yeah, it puts some skin on the idea of King of Kings.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What are you doing with that title, Jesus? This. Controlling kingdoms and making sure that you have the hope to know-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that one day I will be the only ruler.
Seth: Mm. Last thing I wanna bring up-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is let's not forget in all this, like, geopolitical-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... spiritual chaos, like, God still hasn't forgotten Israel.
David: Right. I mean, they're still in exile. [laughs]
Seth: Still in exile.
David: The temple, though maybe in a really, uh, half-hazard [laughs] rebuilding project, is still not complete in the way it needs to be. Um, the sacrifices haven't returned in full force the way they're supposed to. Israel's still desperate.
Seth: Mm. Yeah, and to whatever extent they buy into the common imagination, maybe the spiritual powers of Babylon have defeated the spiritual powers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of Israel.
David: Just because Daniel saw a vision that Michael came back to the fight doesn't mean all Israel thinks that Michael's still alive.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if you're an Israelite in that position, the Book of Daniel is, like, good news for more people than just Daniel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because it reminds them that God hasn't forgotten His promises to Israel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in a, in an odd way, Israel is the center of the world, and, like, visions like this prove it to Israel. Like, you're used to Babylon and Persia and Greece being the big bad guys. Israel is a bit part in that. They are just another strip of land that they conquer on their way to their own ends. But the fact that, like, God keeps reiterating, speaking to the one Israelite in Persia, and then says, "No, and Michael, your prince, is still over your nation," it, it, it communicates something to Israel that they have not been forgotten by God. God's people are still a part of His plans.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're still the center of world history even if the center of world power is in Persia.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah?
David: Yeah. Yeah, he's saying, uh, "I'm telling the nations when to move, where to go."But ultimately, I'm gonna bring you back into the land. Like, the, the rise and fall of the different waves of history aren't going to utterly consume-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... destroy Israel and make you pass out of history.
Seth: Right.
David: I still am going to restore you to your land.
Seth: Yeah, I'm still gonna fight on your behalf.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, this is not the end of the story.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and like, why is that good news for us here and now?
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like, it feels like such a historical moment.
David: Sure.
Seth: An encapsulated historical moment. Israel didn't have a land, they were on, on their way to get it, and God, "Hey, don't worry, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure you get it."
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, but the fact that God didn't forget His people then, it means, really simply, it means He's not gonna forget His people now.
David: Right.
Seth: We still live in a world full of spiritual powers, political powers-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and for many of us, it feels like God's forgotten that, right?
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: But the visions of Daniel say something otherwise.
David: Mm.
Seth: There is a prince over your churches and over your homes. Wherever there are people of God, there are the promises of God to restore you back to the way things should be.
David: Yeah. And I'm sure there are Christians around the world in similar spots or worse spots [laughs] than Daniel and his people were in, wondering if the swells of the waves of the nations crashing down on them in their homelands-
Seth: Right
David: ... is ever going to, like [laughs] like stop.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And br- and like, create a time of peace where they can come back home. And God is saying, "Yes."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "In my kingdom-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the answer's always yes."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Because I'm the King of Kings, who will always have a place and a plan to bring my people back."
Seth: Yeah.
David: So that is really good news.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's really good news.
Seth: So this is really the end of part one of Daniel chapter 10 through 12.
David: Through 12.
Seth: Uh, this is all introductory comments-
David: Okay
Seth: ... to the big vision coming up.
David: The big vision.
Seth: God is in control of history, He's in control of the world, He hasn't forgotten Israel, He's the only international deity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Um, all those things will come into play again as Daniel wraps up his visions next week.
David: Okay, so next week, we're gonna jump into that in 11 to 12, and we will finish Daniel-
Seth: Yes
David: ... next week.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Thank you, Lord. It's been so fun. Well, thank you guys for listening. We're excited to finish Daniel with you all next week, and we will, uh, see you there. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]
