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Daniel 9: 70 Weeks and a Prayer for Mercy

About This Episode

Daniel has just read the book of Jeremiah, and Jeremiah prophesied that in 70 years, Israel's exile would end. Daniel asks God for forgiveness and mercy and wonders if the 70 years are finally up. An angel appears to give Daniel good and bad news. Seth and David talk about Jesus as the fulfillment of the 70 weeks and spend way too much time talking about covenants.

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A Unique Chapter in Apocalyptic Literature

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart continue their journey through the Book of Daniel, arriving at chapter 9—a passage that breaks from the apocalyptic visions of chapters 7 and 8 to present something unexpected: a prayer. This chapter stands out not only for its literary shift but also for being one of the most explicit moments in Scripture where a biblical author directly engages with and interprets another biblical text. Daniel reads the prophet Jeremiah's writings about 70 years of exile and responds with a prayer of repentance, hoping that the prophesied restoration might finally come to pass.

What makes Daniel's prayer striking is his willingness to take responsibility for Israel's situation. Rather than positioning his people as victims of Babylon's geopolitical aggression, Daniel confesses that Israel's exile is the direct result of their own disobedience. This might seem like an unnecessarily harsh self-assessment, but Daniel arrives at this conclusion through careful study of Scripture—specifically the covenant curses outlined in Deuteronomy.

The Covenant Framework Behind Daniel's Confession

To understand why Daniel blames Israel for their exile, one must grasp the nature of God's covenant with his people. A covenant in the ancient world was an agreement between a powerful party and a weaker one, typically following an act of rescue or liberation. The greater party would promise certain protections and blessings while establishing laws the people must follow. If the people obeyed, they would receive the covenant blessings. If they disobeyed, they would face the covenant curses.

God followed this same pattern with Israel. After rescuing them from Egypt, he established his covenant through Moses, promising that obedience would bring flourishing in the land while disobedience would result in exile. Deuteronomy 28 spells out these curses in vivid detail: children given to other nations, enemies consuming the fruit of the ground, and ultimately captivity in foreign lands. Daniel, reading these texts, recognizes that everything happening to Israel in Babylon was explicitly predicted as the consequence of covenant unfaithfulness. The exile was not random misfortune but divine discipline.

Yet the covenant also contained hope. Deuteronomy 30 promised that when Israel returned to God with all their heart and soul, he would restore their fortunes, gather them from the nations, and circumcise their hearts so they could truly love him. Solomon echoed this promise when dedicating the temple in 1 Kings 8, declaring that if exiles prayed toward Jerusalem and repented, God would show compassion. Daniel, praying toward the ruined temple as Solomon instructed, is attempting to fulfill these conditions for restoration.

The Significance of Seventy Years

Daniel's attention turns to Jeremiah's prophecy that Babylon's dominion would last 70 years before God would punish them and restore Israel (Jeremiah 25:11-12; 29:10). With Persia having just conquered Babylon and Darius now on the throne, Daniel calculates that approximately 66 years have passed since Nebuchadnezzar first took power in 605 BC. The prophetic timeline seems nearly complete.

But the number 70 carries significance beyond mere chronology. The chronicler interprets this period as the land enjoying its Sabbaths—the rest that Israel had denied it by never observing the seventh-year fallow commanded in Leviticus. Every seven years, the land was supposed to lie untilled, but there is no evidence Israel ever practiced this. God therefore imposed a Sabbath on the land by removing the people from it. The 70 years represent not just punishment but a divinely mandated rest, preparing the land for a restored people who might finally live in proper rhythm with God's creation.

This Sabbath framework connects to the year of Jubilee—the 49th year when all debts were cancelled and ancestral lands returned to their original owners. Israel had essentially leased their land to Babylon during exile. The prophetic expectation was that after this period of imposed Sabbath, a great Jubilee would come when the land would be permanently restored.

Daniel's Prayer of Repentance

Armed with this biblical framework, Daniel turns his face to God with fasting, sackcloth, and ashes. His prayer is remarkable for its theology: he appeals not to Israel's righteousness but entirely to God's mercy. He acknowledges that God has kept the covenant—including the curses—because Israel rebelled, ignored the prophets, and turned aside from God's commandments. Open shame belongs to Israel; righteousness belongs to God alone.

Daniel functions as a representative Israelite, described throughout the book with priestly characteristics. He confesses sin on behalf of all the people, past and present, asking God to act not because they deserve restoration but because God's own name and reputation are bound up with Jerusalem and its people. The prayer demonstrates that the return from exile cannot be earned through religious performance. It must come as pure gift, rooted in God's character rather than Israel's achievement.

Gabriel's Interpretation and the Seventy Weeks

While Daniel prays, the angel Gabriel arrives with an answer—and a reinterpretation. Rather than confirming that the 70 years are nearly complete, Gabriel speaks of "70 weeks" decreed for Daniel's people and holy city. This language draws from Leviticus 25, where "weeks of years" describe the cycle leading to Jubilee. Seventy weeks of years—490 years—represents a Sabbath of Sabbaths, the ultimate fulfillment of everything the Jubilee pointed toward.

At the end of this period, Gabriel announces, transgression will be finished, Sin will end, iniquity will be atoned for, everlasting righteousness will be established, prophetic vision will be fulfilled, and a most holy one (or place) will be anointed. These promises far exceed a simple return to the land. They describe the complete resolution of humanity's problem with Sin—the inauguration of God's eternal Kingdom.

Gabriel then provides a breakdown of this period into seven weeks, 62 weeks, and a final week, involving an anointed one who will be "cut off," a prince who destroys the city and sanctuary, and one who makes desolate. Interpreters have understood these details in vastly different ways—some seeing fulfillment in the Maccabean period, others in Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, still others in events yet to come. What unites every interpretation is the recognition that this prophecy ultimately points to Jesus as the anointed one who brings the promised atonement and establishes the everlasting Kingdom.

Jesus as the Fulfillment of Daniel's Hope

The good news Daniel longed for arrives in Jesus. At the Last Supper, Jesus declares a "new covenant" in his body and blood—the very covenant Jeremiah prophesied would replace the one Israel broke (Jeremiah 31:31-34). This new covenant differs from the old not because the old lacked grace but because now the covenant curses fall entirely on Jesus rather than on God's people. He becomes the ultimate Day of Atonement, bearing the exile and punishment his people deserved so they never face it again.

Jesus also fulfills the Jubilee hope of land restoration. The Gospel promises more than forgiveness of personal sins—it promises a place. Biblical salvation has always been about returning home to Eden, dwelling with God in a renewed creation. Through Jesus, believers receive the Holy Spirit as a down payment of that inheritance, making the church itself a temple where God's presence dwells. But the full reality awaits Jesus's return, when he will grant his people permanent plots in a new heavens and new earth that can never be taken away.

The number 70 times 7 appears one more time in Scripture when Peter asks Jesus how many times he should forgive. Jesus's answer echoes both Lamech's boast of building a kingdom on 70-times-7 vengeance and Daniel's prophecy of 70-times-7 restoration. Where human empires are built on unforgiveness and retribution, Jesus builds his Kingdom on complete forgiveness. This is the city Daniel glimpsed from Babylon—not another empire of violence but an eternal dwelling place founded on mercy, where the homesick finally come home forever.

Transcript

Seth: [electronic music] [paper rustles] And like that sense of like rootlessness and placelessness will ultimately be solved in Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because one day I'll live somewhere forever-

David: Right

Seth: ... with him and that land will never be taken away-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... by anything.

David: Right. [electronic music]

Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [electronic music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are continuing our series in the Book of Daniel. Now we're in Daniel, chapter nine. Seth, how you feeling?

Seth: I feel like I'm rounding a corner.

David: Yeah?

Seth: Like Daniel's going downhill.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Is that a bad th- [laughs] Daniel's going d-

David: Well-

Seth: Not downhill in like it's getting, like-

David: Like, you know, like you're-

Seth: Descending the mountain.

David: Oh, I got it. I thought you meant like it's getting bad.

Seth: But I was gonna say also that going down the mountain is also the most dangerous part-

David: That's true

Seth: ... of the, uh, [laughs] expedition. Most injuries and deaths happen on the other side of the mountain.

David: [laughs] Is that true?

Seth: And I... Yeah, it, uh, it's actually true.

David: That's crazy.

Seth: 'Cause everyone's tired and exhausted and-

David: And running downhill's hard.

Seth: And running downhill's hard. And I kinda feel like that immense sense of relief, "Oh, we're almost down the mountain."

David: Also, I don't wanna trip over myself.

Seth: Also, this is the most dangerous part of the mountain. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: And so Daniel 9 and 10 and 11 and 12 feel like that's-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... in my brain.

David: That feels good. Okay.

Seth: This feels super good.

David: I get that.

Seth: Feels super good.

David: Okay. So, uh, what is kinda on the line for us here in Daniel 9, and w- what are we gonna have to go through in order to understand it?

Seth: Yeah. Daniel 9 is a really unique chapter in the book of Daniel. Daniel, the first six chapters were stories, narratives from Daniel's time in exile. Chapter seven introduces apocalyptic literature-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... visions of the future. And Daniel chapter 9 kinda breaks the flow of the apocalyptic visions-

David: Right

Seth: ... for a prayer, and it's a prayer based on Daniel's reading of another piece of scripture from the Book of Jeremiah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which is just-

David: We don't get that a lot in the Bible.

Seth: We don't get that a lot in the Bible.

David: Where you have one, o- uh, someone from one book-

Seth: It's one of the-

David: ... doing theology from another book.

Seth: Yeah, and it's one of the most explicit times in scripture that you have one biblical author referring to another biblical author.

David: Yeah, it really is.

Seth: Uh, author. So-

David: Mm

Seth: ... it's unique generally, but it's also kind of breaks the cycle that we were ex- used to experiencing in the Book of Daniel so far, visions and craziness. But prayer.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And Daniel is, it's a prayer asking God for mercy, uh, to deliver them out of exile.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, and what's kind of really interesting about Daniel's prayer is that as he's begging God for forgiveness and mercy and he's repenting, he basically blames Israel's exile on Israel.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he says, "It's our fault we're here."

David: That we're here, yeah.

Seth: "So please rescue us based on your mercy towards us."

David: Mm, okay. So yeah, I, I think like if, if [laughs] Daniel-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... had like a modern counselor sitting across from him during, and like overhearing that prayer, he would say something like, "Daniel, don't bla- don't blame yourself for this. It's, it's not your fault or your people's fault that you're here. It's the geopolitical maneuverings of other nations, and-

Seth: Yeah, Nebuchadnezzar's bloodthirsty.

David: You're a victim. Yeah.

Seth: You're, you're a victim in this situation.

David: You're a victim of circumstance. Don't beat yourself up." And he's saying, "No, this is my fault and my people's fault that we're here, and I know it to be true, and I'm gonna pray that to God." How did we get here? How did, how did he get here from Jeremiah?

Seth: Yeah, so-

David: Is the question.

Seth: Yeah, so how does Daniel get away with blaming Israel for their exile in Babylon?

David: Right. 'Cause it kinda feels like insult to injury.

Seth: It kinda does.

David: Like, you know, exile's been really hard.

Seth: So-

David: And it's our fault that we're here. [laughs]

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah, okay.

Seth: So the, the way you do this, so the way that you start to think like Daniel and start thinking that the exile, their time in Babylon, is part, is their fault-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is all the way back in the Book of Deuteronomy. So the de- book, Book of Deuteronomy enumerates God's covenant with Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So why don't you give us a really quick definition of what a covenant is?

David: Oh, fun. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] A spontaneous definition-

David: Spontaneous [laughs]

Seth: ... of covenant.

David: Of covenant. Uh, it is an agreement between usually a more powerful party and a weaker party. Um, often n- oftentimes it comes from the, the more powerful party saving the weaker party and engrafting them into their society or their culture or under their government, and it's the higher, more powerful party saying, "I will give you these kinds of benefits and protections. You will be my people, and as your king, I'll protect you in these ways. But as my people, as my citizens, you must live in accordance with my law now that you're members of my kingdom in these ways."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "So I'll be your king. You'll be my people. And if you follow my laws, here's all the blessings I'll give you." And if this was like a, um, a secular king doing this-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... he might say, "I'll make sure your taxes don't go above a certain percentage, and I will build walls around your cities to keep you safe."

Seth: "I'll give you this fertile plot of land over here."

David: That's right. Yep.

Seth: Yeah.

David: "And, and even though you didn't earn that plot of land, I'll give it to you 'cause I'm such a generous king. Uh, but if you break my commands-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... then I will bring hellfire and brimstone down on you. I will take the Roman army over to you and punish you," or whatever.

Seth: Right.

David: Uh, and so you have an agreement. Here's what the king will provide. Here's what the citizens will do. If they obey it-

Seth: Here's all the benefits

David: ... here's all the benefits, the blessings. And if they disobey it, here's all the curses, what's going to happen. And God follows the same exact formula whenever he writes the covenant to his people-

Seth: Yes

David: ... ah, recorded in, of, of other, other places, too, but in Deuteronomy.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So God enters into a covenant with Israel like that. And I mean, the easiest way to understand it, here's the Ten Commandments, Israel.

David: Right.

Seth: You will be my people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... if you do these things.

David: Right.

Seth: And you will not be my people if you don't do these things.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And Israel agrees to it.

David: Yep.

Seth: And part of what they're agreeing to isn't just the commands they're supposed to obey, but also the enumeration of the blessings-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and of the curses.

David: Right.

Seth: The blessings are kinda self-explanatory. You'll, you're, you kinda named them. The crops will grow.

David: Right.

Seth: People will be blessed. You won't... I mean, and the kind of amazing, miraculous one-

David: They are

Seth: ... your shoes won't wear out.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You'll never be, you'll never miscarry, like some-

David: Right

Seth: ... divine promises. Uh-

David: Things that an earthly king could never promise.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then in Deuteronomy 28, he als- God also lists the curses-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... for disobedience.

David: Right.

Seth: And what's interesting is the curses that God lists, a lot of them center around an idea of being sent out from the land-

David: Mm

Seth: ... into another land and being exiled from the land God promised them. Part of the blessing was to live in the land God gave them.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The curse was you would no longer be part of that land. So let me just read-

David: Right

Seth: ... a couple.

David: Well, and just to set the scene-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... for people in their creative imaginations, Deuteronomy was read while people were outside of the land. They w-

Seth: Oh

David: ... this was said before they were in the land of Canaan. And so Moses is giving this covenantal speech to the people before they enter the land saying, "When you enter this land, this is basically like you signing the dotted line of the covenant that you are going to do good in this land-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because this is a land that God wants to live in. God wants to make a new Garden of Eden here. So if you're gonna go in this land, you need to live a certain way so that God can dwell with you and make it this beautiful place that blesses all-

Seth: Yep

David: ... nations.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And if, if you come in here and you don't live according to it, like you said, you're gonna get kicked out, and it's gonna look like this."

Seth: It's gonna look like this. So this is Deuteronomy 28:32, "Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and flail with longing for them all day long. But you shall be helpless. A nation that you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground and all of your labors, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually." Verse, uh, 36, "And there in the nation you will serve other gods of wood and stone, and you'll become a horror and a proverb-

David: Mm

Seth: ... a byword among all the people." Verse 41, uh, "You shall father sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours, for they shall go into captivity."

David: Mm.

Seth: This is Daniel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: His father was back home. He was one of the sons who had left his father behind.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Verse 47, "Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you in hunger and in thirst and in nakedness and lacking in everything."

David: And it's amazing to think about that reality of you're about to enter into a new promised land, you've just been saved from Egypt, you know, you've wandered through the wilderness for 40 years, miraculously your shoes didn't wear out, and you're finally coming to the promised land. You're gonna go in, and he says, "You're gonna come in here for a while, but you're gonna mess it up so badly I'm gonna kick you out."

Seth: Well, yes, [laughs] that does come in just a second.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Which is kind of what's fascinating about this, he, so here's the blessings and here's the curses. This will happen to you if you disobey.

David: Right.

Seth: And then he says in the next couple verses, "You most certainly will disobey."

David: [laughs] Right.

Seth: However, and this is important for us to understand what Daniel is doing here, in chapter 30, after this prediction of disobedience, this prediction of exile, he also says this, "And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse," verse two, "and when you return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey His voice," a term that will be used a whole bunch in Dan-

David: Mm

Seth: ... Daniel chapter 9, "in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and He will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you." Verse six, "And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."

David: Yeah, so not only did he say, "You're going to disobey my covenant, and you're gonna be sent away, I'm also going to bring you back-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and I'm gonna change your hearts-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and I'm gonna make you like people who can live in this land forever."

Seth: Yes.

David: So not only are you going to leave, you're also gonna come back. [laughs]

Seth: That's right.

David: And so-

Seth: And it's gonna, you're gonna come back when you repent-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... and when you say sorry.

David: Ah. So Daniel is trying to inhabit that space.

Seth: Mm-hmm. And what's really, so that happened in Deuteronomy-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... before Israel had any kings or leadership to speak of.

David: Right.

Seth: But when King Solomon in 1 Kings 8 builds the temple-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you know what he says? He says this, he says this in verse, uh, chapter 8 verse 48. Let me start in verse 47, "So if you are carried away captive to the land of your enemy, far off or near, but if you turn their hearts in the land to which they have been carried captive and repent, and plead with you in the land of the captor, saying, 'We have sinned and acted wickedly,' if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies who carried them captive, and pray to you towards their land which you have given to their fathers, the city that you've chosen, you will return it to them. You will have compassion on them."

David: Mm.

Seth: So it's really interesting. Uh, we're told Daniel chapter 9 happens during the reign of King Darius.

David: Yeah.

Seth: We already have a story from the reign of King Darius in Daniel chapter 6 in the lion's den. Do you remember which direction Daniel was praying when-

David: Toward the temple

Seth: ... towards the temple in Jerusalem.

David: Which Solomon had just built when he prayed that prayer.

Seth: Right. So Daniel is praying to God. He's remembering the curses of the covenant. He's remembering how if I repent, there's a promise that we'll return to the land. He's remembering 1 Kings 8, where Solomon built the temple-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and said, "If anybody prays towards this, may God show compassion on them and return them to this land." And he's saying, "Okay, God,Will you do the stuff that you said you would do?

David: Mm.

Seth: Would you take away the curses and restore the blessings?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So that's, that's all happening in Daniel as we enter into Daniel 9.

David: Right.

Seth: But there's even more. [laughs]

David: [laughs] So not only is... I mean, 'cause I think it's really cool to s- think about Daniel as being a really good Bible student here, right? He knows his Torah, he knows the covenant blessings and curses that were in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, he knows his Old Testament history-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and the promises of the kings that Israel knows.

Seth: He knows there's a new covenant based on repentance.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's a good Bible student.

David: He's a really good Bible student, which is just a fun way of thinking about Daniel.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Anyway. So, but particularly in chapter 9-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... he doesn't reference the books of Moses, he doesn't reference the, the, the reign of Solomon, he references the Book of Jeremiah.

Seth: Yeah. Let me, let me read Daniel 9-

David: Okay

Seth: ... before jumping to Je- to Jeremiah. He says, "In the first year of Darius's reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books," meaning the books of the Torah, "the numbers of years that according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely 70 years." So, like, okay, what's he talking about in the Book of Jeremiah? He's talking about Jeremiah 25:11, which says this, "This whole land," meaning Israel, "shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon 70 years. Then after 70 years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity," declares the Lord, "making that land, Babylon, an everlasting waste." And he says a similar thing again in Jeremiah chapter 29, verse 10, where he says, "For thus said the Lord, 'When 70 years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place,'"

David: Mm.

Seth: Meaning Israel.

David: That is really interesting to have... You have Daniel reading Deuteronomy, you have him reading the book of, uh, is, is... Was it Kings you read from?

Seth: Kings, yeah.

David: Yeah, the Book of Kings, and he's saying, "Okay, I get it. I get that we broke the covenant, and therefore God held us liable for the covenant curses-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and we have been kicked out of the land. But now I know that we can come back if we turn toward the temple and repent-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... God will bring us back. But the one thing I don't know yet is how long between us getting kicked out and us coming back, how long do I have to wait before-

Seth: Yes

David: ... we can come back?" And that's the piece of the puzzle-

Seth: That Jeremiah offers

David: ... that Jeremiah offers. And then you, you actually do see it in other places, but he hones in here-

Seth: And what's-

David: ... on Jeremiah

Seth: ... really fascinating about Jeremiah's prophecy in particular is that 70 years are up, and Babylon has just fallen. Darius is on the throne. Ameir is on the throne.

David: Oh.

Seth: Cyrus the Persian has taken over. So Daniel-

David: Right, 'cause it says, "In the first year of Darius."

Seth: Yeah.

David: This is right after the changing of the guard. Babylon fell. Is this coming true?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Oh.

Seth: So he's tuned into his Bible, he's tuned into his politics, and he's like, "Oh, wait a second. This is exactly what Jeremiah said, and I wonder if that means what God said all the way back in Deuteronomy, all the way back in 1 Kings, all the way... And in... It's coming true. Is it coming true? Is this finally the moment that it's gonna happen?" So what do you do if you think it might be the moment that God's about to return you to your land? You must repent.

David: Right.

Seth: That's what, that's what we were told to do.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: That's what he's expected to do.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that's what most of Daniel chapter 9 is about.

David: Okay, but why 70? Why 70 years?

Seth: Mm.

David: Is it just like God looked into the future, said, "I'm going to wait, no, not 68 or 69 years, not 72 years. I'm gonna wait 70 years, 'cause that's, that's the right amount of time"?

Seth: Okay.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Great question.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Um, what's great about the Book of Daniel is that we have some really concrete dates for things.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And what's fascinating is that 70 years have not passed yet.

David: [laughs] Okay.

Seth: There's only been 66 years.

David: Really? [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, so we know the date when Babylon took power.

David: Right.

Seth: 605 BC.

David: Okay.

Seth: And we know when Persia took power.

David: Oh, sure.

Seth: 539 BC.

David: Interesting.

Seth: That's s- only 66 years.

David: Right. I mean, that's close.

Seth: It's close.

David: [laughs]

Seth: It's, uh, within the rounding margin of error.

David: Yeah, God's... G- Daniel's like, "Come on, God. Fudge the numbers."

Seth: Fudge the numbers a little bit.

David: "Let's get back to Israel."

Seth: But I think my point here is that, okay, okay, why 70? Why, why-

David: Right

Seth: ... this number 70 here?

David: 'Cause that's n- it doesn't feel like an arbitrary number. That's, that feels like a very specific Bible number.

Seth: It's a very specific Bible number.

David: [laughs]

Seth: So if you go to the book of 2 Chronicles-

David: As, as one often does

Seth: ... I mean, it's not the book I turn to first-

David: No

Seth: ... in the Bible. Um, and I've been putting off writing devotional content-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... for this [laughs] for a long time. But the very, very last chapter of 2 Chronicles-

David: Which, to, to name this, was the end of the scriptures for the Hebrews.

Seth: Yes.

David: This is where the Bible ended for the Hebrews. It didn't end in Malachi for them, it ended right here.

Seth: Yes. And the Book of Chronicles chronicles the history of God's people-

David: I see what you did there

Seth: ... and offers a theological interpretation of what God did through Israel's history.

David: Right, because, like, we have Samuel, we have Kings.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Chronicles just repeats it, right?

Seth: Right.

David: No, right? I mean, it, it-

Seth: That's right

David: ... it's giving commentary, theology about what had transpired through Israel's history-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and in a really big way, that's what the end does.

Seth: And so here's what, how he interprets the 70 years of exile. He says, "He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him," meaning Nebuchadnezzar, "and his sons until the establishment of the king of Persia." So Cyrus and Darius.

David: Mm.

Seth: We're right here with Daniel.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's 66 years after 605 BC. "To fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah," the prophecy that Daniel just read-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... "until the land had enjoyed its Sabbaths."

David: Right.

Seth: "All the days that it lay desolate it kept Sabbath, to fulfill-70 years.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he knows it's 66 because he just referenced the exact dates of the fall.

David: Mm.

Seth: The... You know, he knows it's only 66 years.

David: Right.

Seth: He knows when Nebuchadnezzar took control. He knows when Persia took power. He's... But no, this is to fulfill the 70 years, as if it's like this prophetic category.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he calls it a prophetic category of Sabbathing.

David: Right.

Seth: Of Sabbath.

David: Which would be really appropriate because when does the Sabbath take place? On the seventh day.

Seth: On the seventh day.

David: But there's not only weekly Sabbaths-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... right? There were also seven times seven Sabbaths, mega Sabbaths.

Seth: There was years of jubilee-

David: Right

Seth: ... every fif- 49.

David: 49 years.

Seth: 49 years.

David: Seven times seven years.

Seth: And then-

David: And there was also a month, like the seventh month was kind of like the Sabbath month-

Seth: Yes

David: ... 'cause there were so many parties packed into the seventh month-

Seth: Yes

David: ... that you really couldn't get any work done.

Seth: Right. [laughs]

David: And then you had the y- the seven-year Sabbath, and then you have the seven times seven year Sabbath, which is the year of jubilee.

Seth: Yeah. So then, so you asked me what's the significance-

David: Right

Seth: ... of 70 years.

David: Right.

Seth: So the idea here is that after 70 years in exile, after a period of time in exile, after a prophetic time in exile, Israel re- would return prophetically to a time of rest, restoration, and celebration. Jubilee back in their homeland.

David: Mm.

Seth: That's like, that's what's the hope at the end of Jeremiah or through the 70 year prophecies.

David: Right.

Seth: That the promise of rest, the promise of restoration, the promise of restitution would finally come true-

David: I see

Seth: ... for Israel.

David: Okay. I have, I have two, two questions.

Seth: Yeah.

David: One is, uh, so do you... Are you saying that when Israel comes back into the land, that is them completing the Sabbath rest because they're now back home and they can rest? So in a sense, exile has been 69 years or, like, 60, 60 years.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then the s- the 70th year is the year of Sabbath rest, and it's been... Like, a long time of being away from home has been, like, the work week. [laughs] And then at the end of that time-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... we finally get to come home and rest. Is that the picture?

Seth: I think that's, I think that's part of the picture.

David: Okay.

Seth: So part of the picture is that once our time in exile is over, we will return-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... to a, a Sabbath return.

David: Right.

Seth: A s- a, a year of jubilee where we get our land back.

David: Okay.

Seth: That's what the year of jubilee was. The, that 70th-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... the... You, you keep talking about the year of jubilee. You got 70 s- that seven sevens.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, that's the year of jubilee when land that you had to borrow or lease out is returned to you.

David: Mm.

Seth: So Israel had to lease, leased out its land-

David: Right

Seth: ... in quotation marks, to Babylon while it was in Babylonian exile.

David: Mm.

Seth: But then it returns on the year of jubilee. That's-

David: Right

Seth: ... part of the picture.

David: Okay.

Seth: But there's another side of that picture as well.

David: Right. Is it, does it have anything to do with this idea of the land shall have its Sabbath?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, 'cause that's a strange phrase. I didn't... I know, I, I know like, like, you know, Jews in the Old Testament and maybe, you know, today, we're supposed to Sabbath as people.

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: And people were commanded to Sabbath.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I never, I never in the creation story or in the Ten Commandments saw God turn around and look at the ground and say, "Rest, ground. Make sure to take your Sabbath-"

Seth: Yeah

David: ..."Y- y- you dirt."

Seth: Y- y- you dirt. [laughs]

David: So what's happening, what's happening here where it's like the land will have its Sabbath while Israel is in exile?

Seth: So every seven years-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... the land was supposed to lay fallow. It was-

David: Don't plant any crops in year seven.

Seth: Don't plant, don't reap-

David: Mm

Seth: ... don't harvest. Let it lie.

David: Hard to do in agrarian society.

Seth: And there's no evidence that Israel ever did it.

David: Right.

Seth: So when Daniel's repenting for the sins of Israel, he's in part repenting for the fact that they never followed this Sabbath law.

David: Mm. How can I, how can I claim the 70-year return of ultimate Sabbath to our land after exile if we never repented for the fact that we never celebrated the Sabbath rest in the first place?

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so some commentators will point to the fact that Israel's exile was a, a divinely imposed Sabbath for the rest that the people of God never let the land have.

David: Right.

Seth: The land was, was due a Sabbath-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... every 70 years.

David: Overdue. Yeah.

Seth: And the people of God would never give it to it.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: So God sent them out of the land to give the land its Sabbath-

David: Right

Seth: ... so that when they returned, the land would be at rest and they could rest in it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So those are both ideas operating here.

David: Right. What is it... Like, that just is a really interesting idea for me that I've always loved, is this idea that the land needs its rest, you know?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, and I don't... I'm not a farmer.

Seth: Right.

David: So it doesn't feel like there's enough on the line for me to really be struck by awe and wonder with this.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But it, it is a really cool conceptual category to think about the land having its Sabbath rest. I also think the land was ended up being a place where there was a lot of sin and-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... turmoil and disobedience. It wasn't only bad farming practices, you know, where they wouldn't let the land lay fallow.

Seth: Mm.

David: It was also, they were working out their slavery to sin in the land where they were meant to rest under God's freedom.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it just was a place that was meant to be-

Seth: Well-

David: ... light and blessing, became a curse.

Seth: Well, think about Cain's murder of Abel.

David: Okay.

Seth: What are we told the blood does?

David: Cry out from the ground.

Seth: It cries out from the ground.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so, like, the bloodshed of Israel had caused the ground itself to mourn and wail.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And if you think about some of those stories about what happens if somebody is killed in the field-

David: Right

Seth: ... or-

David: The ground

Seth: ... the ground will, like, bear witness. Like-

David: Right

Seth: ... there was a, a poison, a stain on the land.

David: Yes. They had to go and purify it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... even if it was an accidental murder.

Seth: The land was haunted by Israel's sins.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And God was removing the cause of the sin out of the land to purify the land so that he couldInvite a new people who, having repented of their old sins, could enter into the land purified to enter into a new kingdom and with rhythms of rest and productivity, and that was the hope that Daniel was praying towards as he comes in to Daniel chapter nine.

David: Okay, so Daniel is praying in Daniel chapter nine. He has read his Bible well. He knows that they've broken the covenant. The covenant curses have come. They've been kicked out of the land in exile, but he knows there's a promise that they're supposed to come back, and it should come at the end of 70 years. Well, they're at 66 years. They're almost there, but also maybe they've completed their Sabbath rest for the land, and maybe all that's left and all that's needed is for Daniel to be the representative to finally repent and look to the temple, and then would that end the 70 years, and they could finally come back to their land. Is that where we're at?

Seth: That's where we're at.

David: Okay. I think, I think we, I think I got it all.

Seth: Okay. So let me just read a couple of the things that Daniel prays.

David: Okay. Yeah.

Seth: So it's like, okay, we've talked about how Daniel will get to his prayer-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... but here's what he says. He says this in verse three. "Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy, with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. And I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, 'O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant...'" And think about how loaded that phrase is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's kept the covenant by sending them into exile.

David: Yeah, he kept the covenant curses.

Seth: Yeah. "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments."

David: He's also like, "But you also said we'd come back." [laughs]

Seth: "We have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. We have not listened to your servants, the prophets, who spoke in your names to all of us. To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all of Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you." He's-

David: Oh, there it is right there. Yeah.

Seth: He-

David: We've been driven far away because of the treachery that we've committed against you

Seth: ... to us, the Lord belongs open shame.

David: Mm.

Seth: To our kings and to our princes and to our fathers because we have sinned against you.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He's acting as a representative Israelite, as the only one of the few Israelites in power-

David: Right

Seth: ... that is left.

David: True.

Seth: We've mentioned in previous podcasts that he can kind of function like a priest. He's described-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... as a priest throughout.

David: Without blemish.

Seth: Without bl- he's praying toward the temple like Solomon told him-

David: Yep

Seth: ... to do.

David: He's really concerned about the returning of the burnt offerings and incense throughout the book.

Seth: So he feels like he is this kingly, priestly representative for Israel-

David: Right

Seth: ... repenting on their behalf-

David: Mm

Seth: ... in hopes that his repentance would bleed out in the forgiveness of all of Israel's sins. And then he says this, "To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because we have rebelled against him and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord." [laughs]

David: He's like [laughs]

Seth: I was like [laughs]

David: That makes me, that almost makes it sound like the ball's in your court, God.

Seth: That's exactly what it is.

David: Oh, okay. It is-

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: Okay.

Seth: It's like w- there's nothing within us-

David: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah

Seth: ... that would qualify us to enter back into the land.

David: Mm.

Seth: But in you, there is mercy and forgiveness, and he even says it again in a different way, uh, in verse 18. "We don't present our pleas before you or pleas for return because of our righteousness but because of your great mercy."

David: Wow.

Seth: "O Lord, hear. O Lord, forgive. O Lord, pay attention. O Lord, act. Do not delay. For your sake, O God, because your city and your people are called by your name."

David: What a prayer.

Seth: What a prayer.

David: Man.

Seth: It's a great prayer. [laughs]

David: I wanna pray like this.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I don't really wanna have to be in the situation though. [laughs]

Seth: It's like we all are, David. [laughs]

David: We all, we all are. That's true. We're all in exile. Okay, so I mean, a few interesting things there. He has said in no uncertain terms that he definitely knows it's because of their sins-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that they have been driven out from the land. And now he's not saying, "Well, I've, I'm repenting. I'm saying the words. I'm looking to the temple, so because of my prayer, I've fulfilled the qualifications. Let us back in." He's saying, "We have nothing to offer. All I can bring is my unrighteousness, and so I need your mercy."

Seth: Yeah. He's begging God for a new covenant not based on who he is.

David: Whoa, hold on now. You're gonna have to say that again 'cause that's really good.

Seth: He's begging God for a new covenant not based on who he or Israel is.

David: I didn't think about that, uh, because thi- okay, so if Israel violates covenant one-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... they break it, and so they get the curses. They get kicked out of the land, but then God says, "I'm gonna bring you back in." What he, what he doesn't make super clear, but there are some interesting hints in Deuteronomy-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that you read earlier-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is like okay, but what are we g- what, what are gonna be the conditions-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... of my new residency in this Sabbath land? What, how am I going to live in this land in such a way that I won't get kicked out again?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's, it, you read it earlier. It's, he says, "I'm gonna-"

Seth: He'll circumcise your hearts

David: ... "circumcise your hearts and the heart of your offspring so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."

Seth: Jeremiah says something remarkably similar in Jeremiah 31:31 through 34. "Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day that I took them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband," declares the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days. I will put my law in them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be my people." Daniel even does some of that work here in this prayer, chapter fif- verse 15. He says, "And now, O Lord our God, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt-

David: Oh

Seth: ... with a mighty hand." One of the things that you left out of the general way that covenants are made-

David: Mm

Seth: ... between two parties, it starts with what the k- benevolent king has done to the lesser nation.

David: That's right. I've rescued you from the hand of a tyrant.

Seth: Right.

David: Yes. Therefore-

Seth: So Daniel-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is preloading the covenant for God. He says-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: The preamble to the covenant. Here's what you've already done. Make, give us a new exodus so that we might have a new covenant.

David: Right. 'Cause the grounding of even, like, let's say the, the Ten Commandments is, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt."

Seth: That's the first word of the commandment.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Therefore, do these things. He's saying, "Okay, if we are going to have a new covenant where we can actually obey you from our hearts because you've given us hearts that love you, in order for us to do that, you're gonna have to first perform a new exodus."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "You're gonna have to part the proverbial Red Sea and get us out of Babylon."

Seth: Yes.

David: "And then once you do, we're gonna need a new covenant."

Seth: That's right.

David: Interesting. That's so cool.

Seth: So do you know who gives us a new covenant?

David: Man, I do. [laughs]

Seth: It's Jesus.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Surprise.

David: Man, that's so loaded, though. Like, that's so loaded now. When Jesus sits down with his disciples at the, at the Last Supper and says, "A new covenant I give you, and it's my flesh and my blood, and it's based on love." He says, "The new, a new command I give you too," right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: "To love others as I have loved you."

Seth: Yeah. It is interesting, too. I'm just reflecting on Daniel Chapter 1, where the king offers Daniel the best food of Babylon.

David: Yeah.

Seth: A covenant with the King of Babylon.

David: Oh, yeah. Totally.

Seth: And he says, "No, I'll only drink the vegetables and the water."

David: Right.

Seth: And then Jesus comes with a meal just as simple.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's just the bread and the wine.

David: Right.

Seth: It's the simple, the simple elements. This is my new covenant. Eat this in remembrance of me. This is the new covenant in my blood, and this is th- what will transform you into the people that Daniel hoped you could be, people that would enter into a land that would be at rest, that people could work in it in productive cycles and restful cycles-

David: Mm

Seth: ... filled with the law of God, obeying it perfectly to please the Lord, to be with God forever.

David: Mm.

Seth: Like, that's the new covenant that Daniel hopes will be inaugurated-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... at this end of 70 years. [gentle music]

David: Okay, we have a lot to unpack.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay. First off, how is Jesus giving the bread and the wine that he says represents his body and his blood, how is that the constitution of a new covenant?

Seth: He just says it. [laughs]

David: [laughs] When Jesus says something, it just happens. [laughs]

Seth: So, um, I, um, I'll lead my own question.

David: Okay.

Seth: Okay. So I'm thinking of a couple of things. Number one, I'm thinking of when God made his covenant with Abraham, there was a covenant ceremony that they went through where God rends different animals in half, or Abraham does it-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... but at God's command.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And they split animals in half, and that's the sacrifice. And then typically what would happen is the two parties that have made the covenant would walk through the ripped open sacrifices together, signifying that if either of them breaks the covenant, then what happened to those animals should happen to them. But interestingly, in the Abraham version, uh, God alone walks through the, the s- the ripped open sacrifices and, like, the smoking pot, signifying that he

alone will uphold the covenant, and that's because sacrifices often are the beginnings of covenants.

David: Same thing happens with the covenant that God gives to Israel. They set up a new altar not touched by human hands, which, again, Daniel-

Seth: Daniel picks up

David: ... picks up on, which is really interesting, and sacrifices are instated-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... at the temple. That is a result of this first covenant. So Jesus is saying that in order for a new covenant to begin, there has to be a sacrifice to begin this covenant. I am going to be that sacrifice. I'm going to inaugurate a new covenant based on this sacrifice of my body-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and my blood.

Seth: Yeah. Another way to say that is not just a new sacrifice but a new exodus moment.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, so I brought you up out of the land of Egypt, therefore be my, be my people. Um, I brought you out of the land of the Chaldeans, which is the promise God made to Abraham.

David: Yes.

Seth: God brings Abraham out of the land of Chaldeans, like, "I'm gonna make you a great people," and he does th- he promises this first before the sacrifices even happen.

David: Right.

Seth: Jesus similarly is offering an exodus from death and sin itself-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and then says, "Okay, and the sacrifice is me."

David: Right.

Seth: "Don't, you don't need to offer your own sacrifices."

David: Uh-huh. "And the exodus is me."

Seth: "The exodus is me."

David: Right.

Seth: "And now go and live as I've commanded you-"

David: Right

Seth: "... as my people."

David: It's amazing to think about in the Last Supper and on the cross, Jesus becomes the conquering king who rescues a nation in order to put them into a new covenant. You know, like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... we talked about what, when did covenants start? Well, you had this big, giant kingdom-

Seth: Right, right, right, right

David: ... that would come in and sweep away some other enemy nation and then take those that they were oppressing and make a new covenant with them.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: At once, Jesus is a king who's able to make a covenant, right? Like-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... that's who Jesus was claiming to be when he was at the Last Supper. He's like-

Seth: Yes

David: ... "I am a conquering king-"

Seth: Yes

David: ... "who has the authority to make a new binding covenant with all people."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay, that's amazing, but then at the same time, how does that conquering king make the covenant? He dies.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, he gives up his body and his blood. He's the lion and the lamb. Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's just so amazing to think about.

Seth: He's the sacrifice that points to the fact that there's nothing else left to be done, that the covenant curses will fall on him, but he's also the king who's able to lead us through the waters of death-

David: Right

Seth: ... and out the other side.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, he's both of those moments in one.

David: Yes, and so then you, you just opened up the second thing I think we have to unpack, which is going back to that line earlier I made you repeat, [laughs] which is you said something about th- this is a covenant that isn't based on what we do or-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... what was that?

Seth: I don't remember what I said. [laughs]Uh, but I said-

David: It was gold.

Seth: Yeah. Daniel is asking for God to make a new covenant, not based on who they've been, but who God is-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... on His great mercy.

David: So I think that is the n- the new thing that's happening in Jesus-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... is he says, "This is the new covenant right here. It's my body and my blood." But what happens when I transgress the covenant? What happens when I don't obey?

Seth: Mm.

David: "It's my body and my blood." But what happens when... "It's my body and my blood." But what if I... "It's my body [laughs] and my blood." The, under the new covenant, it's not based on what we do anymore.

Seth: Well, it never was under the old covenant.

David: No, it wasn't.

Seth: But what's interesting... Well, I just k- I just kept thinking like, "Well, it wasn't based on what Abraham did either-

David: No, it was, it was-

Seth: ... or what Israel did."

David: Right.

Seth: They misunderstood it that way-

David: Yes

Seth: ... sure. So it's like, oh, Jesus just does again what God has always been doing for His people.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But what I think is fascinating, and I think maybe what you're driving at, is, like, the covenant curses always fell on Israel.

David: That's right.

Seth: The covenant curses always fell on the people dwelling in the land or not in the land.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Now all the covenant curses have been broken open because Jesus has died on the cross.

David: Yes.

Seth: He's been exiled like Daniel was, so that no believer in the covenant, the new covenant, would ever be exiled again.

David: Right. Which leads me to the third thing I think we have to unpack here, is the 70 years or the 70 weeks or the-

Seth: Right

David: ... perfect amount of punishment-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that had to be executed on Israel, that Daniel's wondering if it, the time is up yet, was never up until Jesus.

Seth: Hmm.

David: We gotta unpack this.

Seth: Yes.

David: Because I think what you said, the real distinction between the old covenant and the new covenant is where the curses fall.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I mean, that is really helpful.

Seth: So why is that so helpful for you? [laughs] Why does that feel like it breaks categories?

David: Yeah. Man, I, I think be- I think it's helpful to me because, not for the obvious reasons. I think it's helpful to me because I think it's really easy for me to create a caricature of the Old Testament law as a works-based law-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... intrinsically, that it was built to be a works-based law.

Seth: The only way God likes you in the Old Testament is if you sacrifice enough animals-

David: [laughs] Right

Seth: ... and obey enough laws.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And that's just not true. Um, that's a caricature of the Old Testament. It g- it got turned into that, in a sense, and I think it continues to get turned into that when people-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... read it.

Seth: I know a lot of Christians who've turned their relationship with Jesus into that.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yes.

David: That's the way our hearts tend, is toward making things that God intends for mercy into things for works.

Seth: That we have to earn.

David: Yeah. Um, so I think it's helpful for me to go, "Well then, what's the big difference? What's the big deal about a new covenant if the old one was also full of grace?"

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? Or it's just, it was such-

Seth: Right

David: ... a clear answer to me to say, well, the difference is at some point the piper has to get paid for all the broken-

Seth: Mm

David: ... all the breaking of the covenant. And it, we saw at the beginning of Daniel, it had to fall on the people of, of God.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But then in Jesus, He says, "I will be the person of God."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, "I will be Israel. I will be your representative, and I will get sent into exile for you. I will bear the curses you deserve. I will be the one who's sent out so you can be brought in." Uh, and that is just really beautiful to me, and it makes so much sense then why He inaugurates the new covenant by handing out His flesh and blood. Because He's like, "The only way this covenant will stick, the only way this covenant's gonna be forever, is if I bear all the curses for you. So here's my body, here's my blood. I'm gonna pour it out and break it open for you so that you can come in." It's just so good. I just think it's so beautiful. Um, but I think it does beg one more question.

Seth: Okay.

David: Which is, okay, cool, Jesus pays this incredibly merciful, huge price to buy a new covenant and bring us into it so that the covenant curses won't fall on us. But, like, what happens when we come into this new kingdom with Jesus as our new king and we've got a new covenant? Eventually, aren't we going to, like, sin so much that we'll g- get kicked out again, or even if we never get kicked out, what's going to make us not just be Israel again, where we just in, in, c- continually to put wrong kings on the throne and follow sin and pollute the land? How am I gonna break the cycle of the Old Testament that seems to be inevitable?

Seth: Well, Deuteronomy 30, Jeremiah 31.

David: Right, the texts that, that Daniel's pulling on.

Seth: The texts that... Yeah. Both prophesy a new heart, a circumcised heart.

David: Yeah.

Seth: A heart that intuits what God wants us to do-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and naturally inclines to do those things. In Israel, they needed a law to tell them how to live in all the situations they would face. In Jesus, we are, have a law written on our hearts, allowing us to encounter hundreds of new situations in more increasingly technological Babylons-

David: Right

Seth: ... knowing how to follow God perfectly-

David: Mm

Seth: ... even when everything around us is tempting us to do otherwise.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The Holy Spirit is one of the defining differences between the old covenant and the new covenant.

David: That's right.

Seth: That's, I mean, that's, that's the hope. That's the answer to your question.

David: Right, is that God's new covenant isn't written on tablets of stone that we look at and say, "Okay, those are the things I need to, to do," or, "That's what a citizen looks like, and I just didn't measure up." It's more, it's this, it's written on your heart. It's encoded into your DNA. That's why you not only get a new covenant, John 3 also says you get a new birth.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You become a new kind of person. Your DNA gets re-encoded with the Holy Spirit in it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And now you can become the type of person who actually does just break the cycle normally. It, y- like, following God becomes more and more-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... natural.

Seth: It's much more intimate-

David: Mm

Seth: ... too. Laws are fairly impersonal-

David: Right

Seth: ... written in a courthouse somewhere.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Uh, but a law written on a heart-

David: Mm

Seth: ... is much more intimate. It also means there's no...Barrier or mediator between you and right relationship with God

David: Mm.

Seth: In Israel, if you wanted to approach God rightly, you had to go through the law.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that law wasn't on your heart, it was in a tablets inside of a temple that you had to perform sacrifices to get near. Now, that law is written on our hearts that has been atoned for by the blood of Jesus, and what was once took an entire infrastructure of a nation to accomplish is now inside of me by virtue of Jesus's death on the cross.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Intimately, I have been forgiven of my sin, my iniquity's been atoned for. The Holy Spirit that used to animate the nation of Israel animates me and I live as a new Israel, as a new Eden-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... as a new representative of God in the world where I am right now.

David: Mm. That sounds like a different kind of covenant.

Seth: It's a new covenant [laughs].

David: [laughs] It's really good.

Seth: Jesus underestimated it [laughs].

David: He's like, "This a new covenant."

Seth: Yeah.

David: He's like, "Guys, this is really cool."

Seth: It's really, it's-

David: He should've said, he should've said really cool.

Seth: Yeah.

David: No. Okay. Ah, so we've, we've talked about Daniel's prayer, why he's repenting, why he's lamenting. It's because he thinks he's at the end of the 70 years. He's trying to obey Deuteronomy. He's trying to obey 1 Kings. He's trying to turn his heart toward Jerusalem, toward God, and come back home. He's like, "God, answer my prayer." And then what happens?

Seth: God answers his prayer.

David: Well, what do you know? God answers his prayer.

Seth: So an angel shows up just like he did in the previous chapter, and it's Gabriel.

David: As, as, as this happens.

Seth: As-

David: This is so normal

Seth: ... as old Gabe often does-

David: You know, when I'm-

Seth: ... he just comes in

David: ... when I'm in, in, finishing up my times of prayer, an angel often just shows up [laughs].

Seth: Just shows up.

David: "Hey, David."

Seth: Gabriel comes to interpret this, interpret God's plans in the same way that he interpreted his dream-

David: Mm

Seth: ... of the ram and the goat. So Daniel says, "While I was speaking and praying, the man Gabriel," whom had seen the vision at first, "came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice." And I wa- I wonder which sacrifice is he talking about here, the sacrifices in Babylon or the sacrifices that no longer exist in Israel, or the ones that had already started because Cyrus had sent Jews back to rebuild the temple.

David: Mm.

Seth: I don't know.

David: Yeah, I don't know either.

Seth: Just an interesting question.

David: Right.

Seth: And then-

David: It's... I mean, but you know, it's kinda like, uh, we still call it breakfast, you know, even though it's n- not often breaking a fast for us.

Seth: Right.

David: So we can refer to things-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... in time-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... that refer to relics of the past [laughs].

Seth: Right.

David: Anyway.

Seth: Anyway, Gabriel made me understand my prayer, made me understand the Book of Jeremiah more specifically-

David: Mm

Seth: ... speaking with me and saying, "O Daniel, I have come out to give you insight and understanding. At the beginning of your pleas for mercy, a word went out and I've come to tell it to you. You are greatly loved, so consider the words and understand this vision."

David: That's amazing. Can I make two really quick observations-

Seth: Please

David: ... that are probably off the track-

Seth: I love off the track

David: ... that we're going on? One is isn't it really cool that God sent an angel to tell Daniel that he's greatly loved? [laughs]

Seth: I... It happens multiple times throughout all these, these visions, and it kinda catches me off guard every time it happens.

David: Yeah. I mean, 'cause number one, poor Daniel, he's just, like, confessing his sins, and I know we were here. It's, like, because of our sins. It's our fault. And he's like, "I still love you."

Seth: Yeah.

David: You know, you're so greatly loved.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You're confessing your sin and you're saying, "Oh, woe is us," and you have nothing to bring. I mean, you're right, but man, I still love you.

Seth: It's like-

David: God, God wants you to know He still just loves you.

Seth: He loves you.

David: I just think that's really cool.

Seth: It is really cool.

David: Uh, the other thing, which is we, we don't do a lot of... We kinda just did one, so that doesn't really sound genuine. But we don't do a lot of... We do a lot of Jesus turns, but we don't do a lot of Holy Spirit turns.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But I just think it's interesting. If Gabriel is the one who comes-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to help him understand Jeremiah better [laughs]

Seth: Yeah

David: ... isn't it cool that we have the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, the author of-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... scripture as our guide through the Bible?

Seth: It is cool.

David: I just think that's cool.

Seth: That is cool.

David: That we don't need an angel to come-

Seth: We don't need Gabriels

David: ... and appear and be like, "Let me tell you what your reading is all about."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You have the Holy Spirit in you that you can pray to to help illumine your eyes-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... to understand scripture, and He's the author.

Seth: Mm.

David: Anyway-

Seth: So interesting

David: ... just a-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... little side note.

Seth: I like both of those things.

David: Great. A deeply loved man filled with the Spirit of God to understand the Bible. Seth Stewart, that's you.

Seth: Thank you.

David: You're welcome. [laughs]

Seth: That's kind of you.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Uh, so the angel interprets the vision and he says this, "70 weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city."

David: But I thought Jeremiah said 70 years.

Seth: Yeah.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Let me finish what this says.

David: I was trying to be Daniel-

Seth: And-

David: ... in real time arguing with the angel.

Seth: But that's exactly what you should be paying attention.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: W- but no, Jeremiah said 70 years.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: Now he's talking about 70 weeks. And what's gonna happen at the end of the 70 weeks?

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, transgression will be finished. An end will be put to sin. Iniquities will be atoned for. Everlasting righteousness will reign. Prophets and visions will be fulfilled, and a most holy thing will be anointed.

David: Hold on. [laughs] That's a lot.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You're saying at the end of 70 weeks, we're just gonna put an end to sin.

Seth: [laughs]

David: We're gonna stop transgression. Can you do that? [laughs]

Seth: Well, in Jesus you can.

David: Well, yeah. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: I mean, that's kinda the point. I'm like, you... What... I mean, what conceptual category would Daniel have to receive a word like that other than just like, "I don't know how you're gonna pull that off, God, but I trust that you will."

Seth: I, I think Daniel would've understood this as a prophecy of the new covenant and a return to the land.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: I think that's what he would've understood.

David: Right. He's like, "If, if God's gonna circumcise your hearts and make you love Him and obey His commands-

Seth: Yes

David: ... He's gonna do something-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that will enable us to put an end to sin and an end to transgression-

Seth: Yes

David: ... and we're gonna need a new place where righteousness dwells, and it's a holy place-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... where prophecies and visions are all fulfilled." Okay.

Seth: And to anoint-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... the Hebrew just saysTo anoint a most holy.

David: Oh, whoa.

Seth: So some translations will say most holy place-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... thinking temple. Other translations say most holy one-

David: Right

Seth: ... meaning-

David: Jesus

Seth: ... Messiah.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Uh, so I would just say the best way to understand it is probably both.

David: Right. [laughs] It's usually a good-

Seth: It's prob- [laughs]

David: It's usually a good guess.

Seth: Probably both. Um, you don't have to choose.

David: Nope.

Seth: The Hebrew author didn't want you to choose apparently, 'cause he could've said either one.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So he just left it ambiguous.

David: Mm.

Seth: So I think he would've understood this as the prophesied end for what he's hoping for. The, the, the end for his prayer is that restoration of Israel to the land with God, this is that thing. But the angel tells him that it's not gonna be 70 years from now, but 70 weeks. Now, weeks, what does weeks mean?

David: Uh, seven days.

Seth: Yeah.

David: [laughs] I know what a week is.

Seth: So, so what is 70 weeks? So either that's, you know, about a year and a half.

David: [laughs] Right. Doesn't seem likely.

Seth: Um- [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... from what I've learned from Daniel so far. And we've also already been introduced to this number 70 previously-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and its connection to the idea of Sabbath. That's not necessarily related to chronological history.

David: Right.

Seth: We know the time between Israel going into exile and coming back in the land was 66 years, but Jeremiah and Daniel both say it's 70, and they say that's because we're talking not about literal years necessarily, but about the concept of Sabbath.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so we have this metaphorical, kind of loose understanding what numbers mean.

David: Right.

Seth: So we come into here, the idea of a week is actually years. So 70 weeks of years. 70 sevens-

David: Oh

Seth: ... is the way that most people have understood this.

David: Okay.

Seth: After 70 sevens, all this will happen.

David: After the Sabbath of Sabbaths.

Seth: After the Sabbath of Sabbaths.

David: [laughs]

Seth: After the ultimate Sabbath of the ultimate Sabbath-

David: Mm

Seth: ... then all these things will happen.

David: Interesting.

Seth: So was that clear? I hope it was clear.

David: Oh, oh, clear as mud.

Seth: God. [laughs]

David: It was so good. No, I'm kidding, it was clear. Uh, it's just weird. But I think it kinda proves your point, or Daniel's point, or whoever's making this point, [laughs] that-

Seth: Whoever's making the point [laughs]

David: ... how, how could the angel come in and say 70 years, you know, Jer- Jeremiah was talking about 70 years, Daniel was praying about 70 years, and then the angel comes in and interprets it and says 70 weeks. It, it kinda proves a point.

Seth: Yes.

David: That we're not talking about chronological time.

Seth: Right.

David: We're not saying, "How many pages are in your calendar are you turning until this happens?" We're saying, "There's a theological category that needs to be satisfied-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... in order for the end of exile to come."

Seth: Yes.

David: Right?

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: And if you go back to the Book of Leviticus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... this phrasing, like, uh, the idea of weeks of years-

David: Mm

Seth: ... comes from the Book of Leviticus. So after the Day of Atonement, which this sounds like a pretty intense day of atonement.

David: Yeah, the end of sin. [laughs]

Seth: Transgre- the end of sin-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... the transgression finished, atoning for iniquity. He says, "You shall count seven weeks of years until the year of jubilee." So that's the 49th year will be the year of jubilee, and that's a way of him saying, "Okay, seven weeks of years, seven sevens-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... 49-

David: Right

Seth: ... equals year of jubilee." [laughs]

David: Right.

Seth: That's what he's, that's the math that he's doing in Leviticus. But he's picking up on that language here because I think he's also pulling on jubilee themes.

David: Right.

Seth: Which is the Sabbath of Sabbaths. It's the Sabbath of Sabbath, and as we've said before, what is the year of jubilee? It's-

David: A returning of land

Seth: ... a returning of land. So in 70 weeks, 70 sevens-

David: You'll get the land back

Seth: ... a day of atonement will come-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... just like before.

David: That first.

Seth: That first, and then after atonement will come the restoration of the land-

David: Mm

Seth: ... a rebuilding of the temple, and a vindication of all that the prophets saw and foretold. That's happening in 70 sevens.

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, we could end there-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... and be like, we've talked about a lot of these themes already.

David: Right.

Seth: We've talked about a new covenant, we've talked about Jesus. We've talked about him, is, h- he's the most holy place. He's the anointed one who brings about an end to sin, and he brings us back into our land. And we can talk about some of those things a little more detail before we go on. And maybe we should-

David: Mm

Seth: ... because Daniel, or the G- Gabriel, I should say, is going to unpack the 70 years in more granular detail.

David: Oh.

Seth: Uh, and we could talk about that.

David: In 10 and 11?

Seth: In, no-

David: Or right here

Seth: ... in the next verses.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: He's gonna, like, tell you what's gonna happen in the first seven weeks, and then what's gonna happen in the next 62 weeks, and then what's gonna happen in the final week.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: He's in real granular detail. So let's zoo- before we get there-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... let's zoom out and say, okay, if we're talking about 70 sevens-

David: Yes

Seth: ... 70 liturgical-

David: Right. Levitical

Seth: ... Levitical-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... jubilee sevens and seventies and Sabbaths-

David: Right

Seth: ... what is being prophesied here?

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think we've said it. It's an ultimate day of atonement in Jesus.

David: Right, that there will be an ultimate day of atonement that leads to an ultimate Sabbath rest.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right. And that's what happens in Jesus. He says, "Here's a new covenant. It's my body and my blood."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He dies on the day of Passover.

Seth: Mm-hmm. Which is-

David: He is the Passover lamb.

Seth: Yes.

David: And he provides atonement. He is the day of atonement.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right?

Seth: Yes.

David: Jesus is the day of atonement, and then what happens after the big day of atonement in the year of jubilee? The year of jubilee happens.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And people, uh, get the land back.

Seth: They're-

David: They're freed from slavery.

Seth: [laughs] Right.

David: All these things happen.

Seth: So let's talk about the land, then. So on the year of jubilee-

David: Okay

Seth: ... if that's what we're pulling on here-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the year of jubilee oftentimes in Israel, all the times in Israel-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... the land was allotted to particular people within particular tribes.

David: Right.

Seth: And that land was supposed to stay within your family and within your tribe.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: However, sometimes you had a hard time. You had to sell your land or lease your land-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in order to make ends meet. However, every 49th year, all that land would be returned to you so that the original allotments of the land would remain the same-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in God's place.

David: Right.

Seth: How does Jesus fulfill the year of Jubilee in that sense for us?

David: Mm.

Seth: If he is forgiving our sins and giving us back the l-l... What is he talking about? Like, how do... I understand personal sins atoned for.

David: Right.

Seth: I u-understand that I own at least a portion of my home. The bank owns the rest of it.

David: [laughs]

Seth: But, like, what's he talking about now as I, I, like, enter in and have land restored to me? What's he talking about?

David: Well, I mean, number one, we have to understand that the way we think about salvation is very different than a way- than the way that Daniel or even a first-century Jew would have thought about it.

Seth: Okay.

David: They would not just think about it in terms of my soul leaving my body to go be with Jesus forever. That's not a biblical way to think about salvation.

Seth: Okay.

David: Is not a, a, a souled reality in heaven forever and not-

Seth: Okay

David: ... hell.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's not what salvation is in the Bible.

Seth: Mm.

David: It's always a return to place.

Seth: Mm.

David: Because how did the Bible start?

Seth: In a place.

David: In a place.

Seth: In, in the-

David: In the Garden of Eden

Seth: ... Garden of Eden.

David: And we left that place. We got exiled from that place. So everything in the Bible takes place in exile. The whole Bible's in exile.

Seth: Okay.

David: And there's these little hints in Israel, right, when they come into Canaan-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... where they're trying to get into a new Eden, and they don't. They get kicked out. Now we're in Daniel. We're in Babylon. But you're gonna come back into another Eden, and we're gonna finally finish the Eden project.

Seth: Mm.

David: And so what Jesus is saying as, as he is the Sabbath rest, as he is Lord of the Sabbath, as he is the one who ends up redeeming us and atoning for us on the ultimate day of atonement to then bring us into his rest, he's saying, "You're gonna become a placed people again. You're gonna have a place." Um, and I think we can read that two ways, and I think we should read that two ways. One is we can be placed right now because-

Seth: Mm

David: ... we have the Holy Spirit in us. Because the, the idea of place was always about where's the temple?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, where, where's the temple? Where's the presence of God? Where's the locus of divine encounter? And now Jesus, through his Holy Spirit, has made that us and the church. So in a sense, he's placed us now because we have the church. We have-

Seth: Mm

David: ... the body of Christ here on Earth-

Seth: Mm

David: ... to dwell in and around. Um, but then the other way we need to think about it, because we're still in exile, we're not with him fully right now, I can't see his face, the other way to think about it is he will return to allot to us a perfect land-

Seth: Mm

David: ... where we will be granted a plot of land [laughs] in the new-

Seth: Right

David: ... heavens and the new Earth, that he will... When Jesus returns, he will remake the Earth. And just like as there was a new covenant, there will be a new Jerusalem and a new heavenly city, and that will be here with us on a new created Earth, and we'll get a plot of land.

Seth: Mm.

David: And we'll be... That plot of land, we'll be with Jesus, and we'll never lose it again. We'll never have to have another Jubilee-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because the land that's granted to us will be ours forever, and we'll always-

Seth: Mm

David: ... be a placed people.

Seth: Mm.

David: So, like, that's kinda what's happening.

Seth: Yeah. That feels like a different, like, a different type of good news than I was expecting-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to hear. It's like, um, the idea of Jesus being the ultimate temple or being the ultimate prophesied one who fixes my problem of sin, I kinda, I kinda, I kinda can get there-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... you know, easily enough. Um, but if 70 weeks is a reference to Jubilee, and Jubilee is primarily about the canceling of debts and getting land back-

David: Right

Seth: ... I don't think I reflect on, like, that sense of loneliness and homesickness-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that I so often experience.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And that not just being incidental to my... Because I think, like, oh, I was a missionary kid-

David: Mm. Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and I've lived in a couple different states, and, like, I feel like that was home for this reason, that was home for that reason, and this was home for this reason. But they're not all quite home.

David: Mm.

Seth: And I really wanna plant a tree and see it grow one day and, like, eat apples from... that I grew in my yard, but I probably won't, because I'll probably move again. And, like, that sense of, like, rootlessness and placelessness will ultimately be solved in Jesus-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... because one day I'll live somewhere forever-

David: Right

Seth: ... with him, and that land will never be taken away-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... by anything.

David: Right.

Seth: It'll always be mine, and it'll always be returned to me. And even if I could sell my land in heaven-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and go somewhere else, I would come back to that land and see that tree I planted 49 years ago.

David: Yep, and eat its fruit.

Seth: And eat its fruit.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I don't know, I'm just... That feels really swe- like, sweet news, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... almost sentimental, but, like, really powerfully and imaginatively good.

David: Yeah.

Seth: My homesickness will be solved.

David: Yeah. And imagine if w-we lived with that reality in mind, you know. I think... I don't think we would build castles. I don't think we'd build mansions-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because we know that this isn't where I'm gonna live forever.

Seth: Mm.

David: I think we would live differently if we knew-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that ultimately my plot of land where I'm gonna live forever is in heaven, or the new Earth.

Seth: Or it would say, "Well, one day I'll come back and visit here."

David: Yes.

Seth: Because I think that's the other thing.

David: Right.

Seth: 'Cause what does land mean for Daniel? It meant Israel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: What does land mean now? It means the Earth.

David: Right.

Seth: What was part of... We keep talking about Tower of Babel themes throughout the Book of Daniel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The Tower of Babylon, back in Genesis 11, concentrated the world's people in one place.

David: Mm.

Seth: The Kingdom of Babylon did the same thing.But God's intention was that people would spread out through the whole Earth and make the Garden of Eden over the entire Earth.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And what ha- is the first thing that happens when the Holy Spirit comes, which we keep talking about, is he scatters all peoples, tribes, and languages throughout the earth to spread the Kingdom of God.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, the Kingdom of God goes out, and as we plant trees now or build homes, what are those places? Those are outposts of the Kingdom of God now.

David: That's right.

Seth: And some of those things will survive to the next life.

David: That's right.

Seth: Which, which is what, like, like, don't build it out of straw or hay, 'cause it'll be burned up.

David: That's right.

Seth: Build these out of gold-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... and they'll be there when we, when Jesus comes back. I'm like, I don't know what that means exactly.

David: Right.

Seth: But I'm wondering if, like, I'm stumbling into it, like-

David: Right. It means things that will have the same value that Heaven will have.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's stuff that's not made out of actual gold-

Seth: Right

David: ... but stuff that would, is so good and Christ-centered, that it will still exist in Heaven because it's heavenly.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's made of the fabric and the intention of Heaven. So I've, I've often heard people talk about, like, when you create or you build or you make something, a business-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... a home, a garden, whatever it is, whenever you ma- a piece of art.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Whenever you make something, try to make it so like Jesus, like Heaven, that you'll be able to pick up where you left off-

Seth: When you get there

David: ... when you get there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: 'Cause it'll be there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It makes-

Seth: Which is so-

David: Is a different way of thinking about, like, sending your treasures ahead.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? Is not just, which I don't disagree with this-

Seth: No [laughs]

David: ... please no one hear me say, like it's not just, well, when I donate my m- money to a charity, I'm actually sowing into the Kingdom. You are, but I don't think whenever you go, "Here's a bag of money," to a charity, that bag of money is waiting for you on your plot of land. I think instead-

Seth: Right

David: ... if you, you, you give money to a place that builds a home for a needy family, you could get to go visit that family in that home forever and, and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... know them and live with them.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And like, you know, like visit them and-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... have a meal with them. [laughs] Which sounds way better than just having a bunch of bags of money in Heaven. [laughs]

Seth: Right. Okay.

David: [laughs]

Seth: So we've spent a lot of ti- like, what-

David: [laughs]

Seth: I'm like, where, what are we even talking about anymore?

David: Are we in Daniel?

Seth: Are we in Daniel? I, I think we are.

David: Yes, we're definitely in Daniel.

Seth: Because the hope-

David: He's homesick.

Seth: Yeah, Daniel is lost in Babylon, homesick for a place where the new covenant actually reigns.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Where people are transformed by the gr- the Holy Spirit of God to do justice-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in a land.

David: I wanna say this too, 'cause it's like this is Daniel's hope for a new covenant because think about Eden. Eden was a place that was supposed to be perfect, and there was a tree of life there.

Seth: Right.

David: You live forever there.

Seth: Right.

David: And so of course you would work on an art project and then pick it up a thousand years later.

Seth: [laughs] Yeah.

David: 'Cause you, there's a tree of life there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You live forever doing that kind of stuff.

Seth: Right.

David: And so we're squarely in Daniel. [laughs]

Seth: We're squarely in-

David: Daniel from this side of the cross.

Seth: Right, yes. And like, yes.

David: [laughs]

Seth: I'm with us. I'm with us. The 70 weeks are 70 sevens leading us to the new covenant and ultimately the final reality where we're with God-

David: We're-

Seth: ... forever.

David: Forever Sabbath.

Seth: Yes. That's not quite the way that-

David: Daniel 9 ends

Seth: ... the way Daniel 9 ends.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The angel gives a further interpretation of what's going on here. Um, he says, "Know therefore, and understand, that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for 62 weeks it shall be built again with streets and a trench, or squares and a moat, but in a troubled time. And then after the 62 weeks an anointed one shall be cut off and have nothing, and the people and the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood. Desolations are decreed. He shall make a strong covenant for one week, and for half the week he shall put an end to the sacrifice and the offerings. And in the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

David: What does that mean, Seth?

Seth: I-

David: [laughs]

Seth: The more I've studied this, the less sure I am. There's four primary interpretations, and then I realize, after reading all those and understanding about 50% of each one of those positions-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... that I don't think that my study has not led me to any of those conclusions. [laughs]

David: Wonderful.

Seth: Um, we had mentioned last week that th- that number 62 seems significant in Daniel because that's the age that Darius takes the throne.

David: Right.

Seth: And King Cyrus, who places Darius on a throne in Babylon, is the one who tells Israel to go back and restore and bu- rebuild the temple.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And Darius is in charge as that's happening. So that makes sense that the one after that would be the kingdom of Greece, and Antiochus Epiphanes comes and destroys the temple.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And that would mirror the prophecies of Daniel 8, where it talks about Media and Persia being followed by the kingdom of Greece.

David: Yes. So this is an, and, and, and what you're saying is the, the seven weeks and the 62 weeks and the one week is another way of building the statue again.

Seth: It's another way of building the statue again, and then at the end of that time will come a new kingdom.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And who's that new kingdom? The kingdom we've been talking about this whole time.

David: That's right.

Seth: The ultimate kingdom that Daniel ushers in. Now, there's other people who say that that, that can't be what this means because this is obviously referring to Jesus and His baptism and, um, it's referring to Rome, it's referring to, uh, Titus in AD70 when he destroys the temple then. It's referring to none of those things. It's referring to the Antichrist and what he does at the end of time.

David: There are a lot of opinions.

Seth: So many-

David: What's the one thing, the common denominator, that really matters that we need to walk away from this with?

Seth: At the end of all that, there is a most holy place.

David: Mm. A most holy one.

Seth: A most holy one.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we will be with Him at the end of that time. Uh-

David: That's al- [laughs] that's what matters.

Seth: That's what matters.

David: [laughs] Yeah, right.

Seth: And all, I mean, I thi- I mean, unless you don't believe-That Jesus was real. That, those, that's where all of them end.

David: All the interpretations end with, "And Jesus is the answer." [laughs]

Seth: Right. And Jesus is the answer. He's one who forgives our sins-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and builds us a new land to live with him forever.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And there is one other way that I like to think about this.

David: Oh, okay.

Seth: And it goes all the way back to the beginning of the Bible, in the book of Genesis.

David: Those are my favorite ones.

Seth: Um, so this idea of 70 sevens.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: So we've talked about it as a reference to Sabbath.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: We've talked about it r- as a reference to the year of Jubilee.

David: Right.

Seth: We've talked about it as like a symbol of completion or fulfillment, a metaphorical. Um, side note, historically, 70 times seven is 490, and if you do some rounding, make some rounding errors, that's about the time between, you know, Darius and Jesus. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, there's like-

David: That's super cool

Seth: ... there's that going on. But 70 times seven is, is introduced to us all the way back in the beginning stories of Genesis.

David: Right. Right after the very meaning of seven got established-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... with the time of creation-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and rest.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's the cycle of the universe. Okay, yeah.

Seth: Cain kills Abel.

David: Right.

Seth: Cain goes and builds a city.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: The first city, the first empire.

David: Oh.

Seth: He makes new technology, just like Babylon perhaps.

David: Mm.

Seth: And one of his ancestors, uh, is named Lamech.

David: Yes.

Seth: And one of the promises that God made to Cain was that if anybody attacked him, God would hurt him or give revenge on him seven times over.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But Lamech, after building the city, after ignoring God's commands for who- however long it takes to build an empire and a city, said, "Well, if Cain got seven times revenge, I'm gonna build reven- a city on revenge 70 times 7 times."

David: Mm.

Seth: So, and then Lamech becomes kind of like this archetypical example of what proud rulers look like.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They build kingdoms of unforgiveness 70 times 7 times over.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then we have this interesting thing here about 70 times 7 in the Book of Daniel. In 70 times 70 years, what will happen? Sins will be atoned for.

David: Mm.

Seth: Forgiveness will be finally offered. For what? For people like the descendants of Cain.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: For people like Israel, who built a nation on bloodshed. For people like King Nebuchadnezzar, who is a spiritual descendant of people like Cain, because he's built Babylon, a city of vengeance and unforgiveness. And then the only other time in scripture that I know of-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that 70 times 7 is mentioned is when Jesus is talking to Peter.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And Peter asks, "How many times should I forgive my brother that wronged me? Is seven times enough?"

David: Sound, sounds like a good number.

Seth: And then Jesus says, "70 times 7 times."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And what's he talking about?

David: Right.

Seth: He's talking, I think, about this who builds the kingdom of God based on forgiveness.

David: Yeah.

Seth: He does.

David: Right.

Seth: In his message, in his body, in his teaching, there is a kingdom that will be built, a city, an empire that will be built based on forgiveness, not vengeance, 70 times 7 times over.

David: Wow.

Seth: And it's in him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's in Jesus.

David: Yeah, the place, we talked about being placed.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Living in a kingdom, and the kingdom we live in with Jesus is a kingdom not built on retribution and vengeance and grudge-holding and past records. You know, everybody's got a record, it's tied to your social security number or whatever.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: You know, you talk about like, oh, you got a mark on your record. That's how governments keep track of you.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Right? Jesus builds his kingdom on forgiveness.

Seth: Mm.

David: It's a different way to construct a kingdom.

Seth: Mm.

David: And so Peter asks like, "How many times should I forgive my, my brother, seven times?" He's like, "No, no, no, I don't build my kingdom that way."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "My kingdom's built on perfect, total, complete forgiveness."

Seth: The point is, whether it's the Antichrist, whether it's a literal 490 years, whether it's metaphorical about the year of Jubilee, whether it's about Sabbath rest-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... whether it's about a kingdom of vengeance versus a kingdom of forgiveness, where do all these things end?

David: Yeah.

Seth: They end in the good news of Jesus and his eternal kingdom, and that's the b- the good news of the Book of Daniel from the very beginning.

David: It has. [laughs]

Seth: It's the uncut stone that smashes the empires of the world.

David: Right.

Seth: It's the, it's the king who joins you in the fire.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's like he's the one who saves you from the lions, it's the one that he's coming to build something better than we've ever experienced in an empire on the earth. That's the good news at the end of the Book of Daniel.

David: That's so good. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us. This has been a really cool episode. Um, next episode, w- we are in Daniel 10, possibly wrapping up with 10 and 11.

Seth: I would love that.

David: I would love that.

Seth: And 12.

David: Oh, and 12. [laughs]

Seth: There's, there's, there's three.

David: There's more to come. [laughs]

Seth: We'll see.

David: Uh, w- anything to tease about 10, 11, 12?

Seth: There's a metal man, just like there wa- is in Daniel chapter 2, that statue made of different metals.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: There's now a new metal man, but he comes from heaven.

David: Oh.

Seth: So-

David: Metal man from heaven

Seth: ... metal man from heaven. Wonder who that could be?

David: That's interesting.

Seth: And then the final visions, the kings of the north and the kings of the south.

David: Yeah. And I'm most excited, if we get to it, to talk about the scroll that is sealed up.

Seth: We have to.

David: That doesn't get opened until Revelation. Can't wait to talk about that. So we will see you as we continue through the Book of Daniel. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. [outro music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]

Related Resources

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A Unique Chapter in Apocalyptic Literature

Show Notes

The Covenant Framework Behind Daniel's Confession

The Significance of Seventy Years

Daniel's Prayer of Repentance

Gabriel's Interpretation and the Seventy Weeks

Jesus as the Fulfillment of Daniel's Hope

Related Resources

Introduction to Daniel

View our devotional on Daniel 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Daniel Introduction podcast

Listen to the Daniel 1: A Test of Allegiance podcast

Listen to the Daniel 2: A Statue of Four Kingdoms podcast

Listen to the Daniel 3: A Raging Furnace podcast

Listen to the Daniel 4: Nebuchadnezzar Goes Insane podcast

Listen to the Daniel 5: The Writing on the Wall podcast

Listen to the Daniel 6: The Lion's Den podcast

Listen to the Daniel 7: A Cloud-Riding Son of Man podcast

Listen to the Daniel 8: Rams, Goats, and Abominations podcast

Listen to the Daniel 9: 70 Weeks and a Prayer for Mercy podcast

Listen to the Daniel 10: A Shining Metal Man and the Prince of Persia podcast

Listen to the Daniel 11-12: Not a When, But a Who podcast

Listen to the Daniel Sermon: Only God is in Control podcast