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Daniel 11-12: Not a When, But a Who

About This Episode

The final visions of Daniel are some of the most interesting and leave us asking, with Daniel and the angels around him, "When will all this happen?" But instead of getting an answer to "when", we're told about "who." Seth and David talk about the good news of a God who knows history, even when we don't.

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The Sealed Scroll and the God Who Knows History Before It Happens

Show Notes

In this final episode covering the Book of Daniel, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart conclude their journey through one of Scripture's most challenging prophetic books. What they discover is that Daniel's final vision isn't primarily about predicting dates or identifying future rulers—it's about trusting the God who holds all of history in his hands.

A Prophecy Unlike Any Other

Daniel 11-12 stands apart from nearly every other prophecy in Scripture. While most biblical prophecy comes in the form of poetry filled with vivid imagery—beasts rising from the sea, stars falling from heaven—this passage reads more like a dry military briefing. It contains detailed battle reports, treaty negotiations, and geopolitical maneuvering described in prose rather than verse.

This unique style actually mirrors an ancient form of writing called "ex eventu prophecy," where rulers would write predictions after events had already occurred to claim divine approval for their victories. The Dynastic Prophecies from Babylon follow this same pattern. Because Daniel's prophecy so closely matches this genre and maps onto history with remarkable precision, some scholars argue it must have been written after the events it describes. However, the entire purpose of the prophecy is to offer hope to God's people facing an uncertain future. If Daniel wrote this after the fact, his audience would need to be deceived into thinking it was genuine prediction—a manipulation that seems incompatible with Scripture's character. The prophecy makes far more sense as what it claims to be: God revealing history before it happens to build trust in his people.

Israel at the Center of World History

The content of Daniel's vision spans roughly 200 years of conflict between world empires. The spiritual being speaking to Daniel summarizes it simply: the Prince of Persia will fall, and the Prince of Greece will rise, but Michael will stand guard over Israel the entire time. What follows is the geopolitical version of that spiritual reality.

Four Persian kings rise and fall until the last one provokes Greece into war. Alexander the Great conquers the Persian Empire but dies young, leaving his kingdom not to his son but to his four generals. These generals eventually consolidate into two major power bases: the Seleucid Empire in Syria to the north and the Ptolemaic Empire in Egypt to the south. Throughout the prophecy, these are simply called "the king of the North" and "the king of the South." The directional language only makes sense from one reference point—Israel sits directly between these two superpowers. For 150 years, God's people are caught in the crossfire of empires battling for supremacy, ping-ponging between northern and southern control. Yet in God's prophetic imagination, Israel remains the center of the world. The nations may be more powerful, but they all revolve around the place where God has chosen to dwell.

The Contemptible Ruler and the Abomination

The prophecy zeroes in on one particularly vicious king of the North: a "contemptible person" who obtains power through flattery and who harbors special hatred for God's covenant people. Scholars universally identify this figure as Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Three times the text emphasizes his antagonism toward the holy covenant. He profanes the temple, removes the burnt offerings, and sets up "the abomination that causes desolation"—a reference to his erection of a statue of Zeus in God's house and his sacrifice of pigs on the altar.

This desecration represents the ultimate nightmare for Israel. The temple was God's dwelling place on earth, and its destruction or defilement signaled cosmic catastrophe. Yet God tells Daniel about this horror in advance, not to torment him but to assure him that even this unthinkable evil falls within divine sovereignty. The news itself isn't good, but knowing the news before it happens changes everything. It means God isn't surprised. It means God isn't defeated. It means that even when the center of Israel's worship lies in ruins, the God who knows history before it happens remains in control.

The Mountain Range of Prophecy

Beginning in verse 36, the prophecy becomes controversial. The language shifts from dry battle reports to elevated, almost apocalyptic descriptions: a king who exalts himself above every god, who speaks astonishing things against the God of gods, who magnifies himself above all. Some details don't match what we know of Antiochus Epiphanes—he never conquered Egypt or built palaces in Israel as described. So who is this king?

Three main options exist. First, this still describes Antiochus Epiphanes, and we simply misunderstand the symbolic language. Second, the prophecy leaps forward to describe an antichrist figure at the end of time. Third—and this view deserves careful consideration—Daniel sees what might be called "prophetic telescoping." Imagine Daniel looking at a distant mountain range. From his vantage point, it appears as one mountain. But as history unfolds and we gain a closer view, we realize it's actually multiple peaks spanning great distances. Daniel sees Antiochus Epiphanes, the destruction of the temple by Rome in AD 70, and a final conflict at the end of history as one connected event. Jesus himself seems to confirm this reading when he applies Daniel's "abomination of desolation" to Rome's coming destruction of the temple in his Olivet Discourse. The prophetic mountain has multiple peaks, and Jesus reveals another one that Daniel couldn't distinguish from his position in history.

The vision culminates in chapter 12 with language about resurrection and final judgment: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." This is one of the Old Testament's clearest statements about eternal destiny. No matter how many iterations of Antiochus Epiphanes arise throughout history, no matter how many times God's people suffer under contemptible rulers, the end of the story remains fixed: the wicked will be judged, the righteous will live forever, and justice will be done.

The Scroll Sealed Until Jesus Opens It

After delivering this vision, the divine being gives Daniel a strange command: "Shut up the words and seal the book until the time of the end." Daniel has questions—of course he does—but the scroll contains more than he's permitted to know. The rest of history has been written, but it remains sealed.

This sealed scroll doesn't appear again in Scripture until the Book of Revelation, where John sees it in heaven and begins weeping because no one is worthy to open it. Then the Lion who is also a Lamb—Jesus himself—steps forward, and the hosts of heaven declare him worthy to break the seals. When Jesus opens the scroll, what do we see? The wicked judged, the righteous living forever, justice accomplished. The prayers of the saints rise like incense before God's throne. The temple that Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated, that Rome destroyed, is no longer a building that can be ruined. Jesus is the temple now, and his people can always be with him. The abomination of desolation is not the end of the story—it's a chapter that the risen Messiah has already overcome.

Living Between the Times

Daniel's final verses contain a riddle that has puzzled interpreters for millennia. When will all this happen? "A time, times, and half a time." How long until the end? "1,290 days... Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days." These numbers resist precise calculation not because God doesn't know the timeline but because precise dates aren't what Daniel—or we—actually need.

The same pattern of "two, one, half" appears in Daniel 5, where the writing on the wall humbles King Belshazzar. The numbers aren't meant to give us a calendar; they're meant to drive us to the humility Belshazzar lacked but Nebuchadnezzar eventually found. Nebuchadnezzar's final words in his story arc are the appropriate response to all of Daniel: "His dominion is an everlasting dominion. His kingdom endures from generation to generation. He does according to his will among the hosts of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand or say to him, 'What have you done?'"

This is why God gives asynchronous timelines—1,290 days here, 1,335 days there. Christians live in what theologians call "inaugurated eschatology": the Kingdom has come in Jesus, but it hasn't fully arrived. Sin's power is broken, yet we still struggle. Death is defeated, yet we still die. The righteous are vindicated, then crushed, then raised up again throughout history. Why does God allow this gap between the already and the not yet? Two reasons emerge from Daniel. First, the longer the story, the more fully we see God's sovereignty displayed across empires and centuries. Second, God's patience is kindness—every day history continues, more people are brought into his eternal Kingdom. The scroll remains partially sealed not because God is cruel but because he is merciful, waiting for more sons and daughters to come home.

Transcript

David: [upbeat music] And so like this big abomination which causes desolation, the defeat of the temple, which is like the end of the world to Israel, is not the end of the world anymore. It's not the end of the story.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The seal's opened, and we, we learn that Jesus is the temple, and we can always be with him.

Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast and the last episode in the Book of Daniel for us.

Seth: I feel a great sense of relief.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And, uh, that's about it right now. [laughs]

David: Just, yeah.

Seth: Like, a great sense of relief. It has taken a lot to get here.

David: We have fought the good fight.

Seth: We have.

David: We've run the race. [laughs]

Seth: And like uniquely of all the books we've done is like there's just heavy lifting to get-

David: Every time

Seth: ... every time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I'm ready, but like I'm ready to download 300 years of Persian history into our listeners' skulls because that- [laughs]

David: Everyone just back out of the podcast now.

Seth: Wait. Abort!

David: Never mind.

Seth: Abort! [laughs]

David: Never mind. [laughs] No, it's gonna be really good.

Seth: It's gonna be great.

David: It's gonna be great.

Seth: I promise.

David: Yeah. Okay, so we, we just wrapped up last week on Daniel at the, at the end of his like season of mourning and fasting, seeing this vision of, of, of God, this vision of Jesus as the bright burning metal man-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and then having a hand touch him, hearing about the, the restraint of the Prince of Persia-

Seth: Yes

David: ... all that crazy stuff. And then that person, that spiritual being, set up for us in a two-sentence summary-

Seth: Yes

David: ... um, everything that we're about to walk through.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And we kinda teased that in the last episode.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But let's set it up again here now.

Seth: Yes. In Daniel 10 and verse 20 and 21, he says, "This is why I've come to you. I have fought against the Prince of Persia, and behold, the Prince of Greece is about to come. But let me tell you this, inscribed in the book of truth, there's none who fights by my side except Michael, your prince."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So what we're about to read is a description of the conflicts between Persia and Greece and Israel's role in the middle of all of it.

David: Okay.

Seth: Super clear.

David: Yeah, that's very helpful.

Seth: It's like, it was so helpful for me to be like, "Okay, I g- I've got my head on straight." Now, before we start-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... this is one of the most unique prophecies in all of scripture.

David: What makes it so unique?

Seth: Well, generally, prophecies are poetry-

David: Okay, yeah

Seth: ... in scripture. This one is prose.

David: Mm.

Seth: Um, and kind of odd prose.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's not exalted language. We're not seeing beasts come out of the sky, like we're not seeing stars fall from heaven. We don't have a lot of metaphorical language. We have kind of really strictly worded battle reports-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and treaty negotiations.

David: Oh, yeah. That is strange.

Seth: Then verse five, "Then the king of the South will be strong, but one of his princes will be stronger, and then he will rule. And his authority will be a great authority. And then some years later, they'll make an alliance, and the daughter of the king of the South will come to the king of the North and make an agreement."

David: Yeah. Compared to the rest of Daniel, this is kinda dry.

Seth: Yeah, and/or Isaiah or Jeremiah or a-

David: Any, any idea what's going on there literarily with the style?

Seth: So most scholars believe that Daniel is cribbing off an ancient form of prophecy writing.

David: Okay.

Seth: It was really common for leaders of large empires to write prophecy after the fact, to pretend as if they, their victory over X nation was predicted long, long ago in the annuals of history.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And they would go into these very detailed accounts of nations and alliances, one against the other, until the inevitable rise of their own power.

David: Ah.

Seth: And they would generally be kind of vague like this. They would have like... It shares a lot of similarities.

David: Okay.

Seth: You can go read one. It's called the Dynastic Prophecies.

David: Oh.

Seth: You just go read it.

David: Okay.

Seth: Like read it for yourself. So, uh, Daniel is using that same form-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... here, so much so that, um, many scholars think that Daniel must have written this after the fact.

David: After all of this history already occurred.

Seth: He described about 200, 150 years of history between the Persians and the Greeks.

David: Mm. So it follows the formula of this genre so well-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that people think... And it's very, so accurate-

Seth: And it's so accurate

David: ... that people think, uh, this could only have been written after the fall of the Persian Empire-

Seth: Right

David: ... after all this transpired with the Grecian Empire. There's no other way it could've been written.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: And what's crazy is that the history it details is so accurate. Nobody debates, critical scholars-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... conservative scholars, like, no, this describes the period of the fall of the Persian Empire to the rise of Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

David: Yeah, because it maps onto history so perfectly.

Seth: It maps onto history so perfectly.

David: Okay.

Seth: The only debate is when did Daniel write it, before it happened or after it happened?

David: Or after it happened. And so y- what, what do you think then? Because it maps on so well, not only with history but with this literary genre that's notorious for writing events after the fact.

Seth: Right.

David: What may... Where do you stand on like, and why, why should we think one versus the other, before or after?

Seth: Well, if you're writing history after the fact-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... the reason why you would do that is to prove-That there was, like, divine consent, divine approval over your nation-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... perhaps. Like, that god's hands were in it. See? And we've rewritten history to articulate that fact.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Makes God complicit in your history type of role-

David: Sure

Seth: ... to do it that way, right?

David: Yeah. There's probably, like, a more innocuous way to talk about it, where you get through a really difficult time, and then you look back and you're like, "Oh, I think God was with me through that."

Seth: Yes.

David: It's the, it's the footprints on the beach.

Seth: Yes.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And, like, and here's the way God led us to this par-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yes, that's exactly right.

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, but-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... one of the things that I keep feeling through the Book of Daniel is that Daniel is being offered hope.

David: Yeah, we're even told that in the last chapter.

Seth: And he needs hope in an uncertain future.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's-

David: And so does all of Israel.

Seth: And so does all of Israel, and it seems insincere-

David: Disingenuous

Seth: ... disingenuous to write prophecy after the fact to give hope to people-

David: Right

Seth: ... because you'd kinda have to buy into the lie. They'd have to be fooled into thinking that it was written beforehand-

David: Right

Seth: ... which was part of the intention of that prophecy.

David: Right.

Seth: But-

David: But the point of the prophecy is to say, no, God knows what's going to happen, is in control, and though it might be dangerous, you are safe.

Seth: One of the scholars that we've been reading, his name is Tremper Longman, he kinda s- he says it this way. "For this type of literature to work," meaning prophecy after the fact, "that is, for it to achieve its intended effect on the audience-"

David: Mm-hmm, which was to offer hope

Seth: ... to offer hope, "they cannot know that it's quasi-prophecy."

David: Mm.

Seth: They-

David: Fake, pseudo-prophecy

Seth: ... right. They have to believe it's real prophecy.

David: They have to believe it was actually predictive before the fact.

Seth: Which seems like a fiction.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Which seems like an-

David: A lie

Seth: ... a lie. And I, like, I have a little bit of trouble saying that Daniel authored something to be-

David: Manipulative

Seth: ... manipulative, and to be, like... Not to, to write something pretending to be that was in the past.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That feels at odds with my understanding of how scripture works.

David: Right.

Seth: There are people that disagree with me, conservative scholars-

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: ... that disagree with that consensus. But, like, for me, it's like, no, it seemed pretty clear that Daniel wrote this early in history before it happened-

David: Right

Seth: ... to give hope to God's people.

David: 'Cause what we're not saying is that looking back on 200 years of history that wa- lo- that looked chaotic and out of control, and having God say, "I was in control of that. Don't worry."

Seth: Mm.

David: Uh, what we're not saying is that doesn't bring any hope or any comfort. What we're saying is, how much more comfort and how much more does it sound like the kinda comfort Daniel wants and is saying he's getting-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... to say, "You have no idea what's gonna happen in the next 200 years. Let me tell you, it's this and this and this"? And as it unfolds, you're looking in Daniel and being like, "This is happening."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: How much more is your hope built-

Seth: Right

David: ... when that's true versus the other version?

Seth: That's right. So that's why I'm like, I think I lean on the side of like, Daniel probably wrote this way early, way before it happened-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and it gave a ton of hope to God's people.

David: Okay.

Seth: So are you ready for a dense history lesson?

David: Whoo. Let me, let me get cozy. Okay.

Seth: So we've heard the-

David: I'm ready

Seth: ... spiritual summary.

David: Yes.

Seth: The prince of Persia will be defeated by the prince of Greece, and don't worry, Michael will be with Israel the whole time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Ready for the, the geopolitical version of that?

David: Ready. Lay it on me-

Seth: Oh, man

David: ... history teacher.

Seth: Okay, so [laughs] I've practiced this like five times-

David: [laughs]

Seth: ... to get ready to synthesize what happens here.

David: You've got this.

Seth: So verse two. I'm gonna tell you the truth. "Behold, three more kings will rise in Persia, and a fourth will be richer than all of them. And when he becomes strong, though he is... through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece. And then in Greece, a mighty king will rise, and he shall rule with great dominion, and do as he desires. And as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom will be broken and divided towards the four winds of heaven." So kind of without fail, the scholars all agree that these... There were four representative Persian kings who fall.

David: Mm.

Seth: The last of which begins, or incenses, or finally antagonizes Greece to attack.

David: Mm.

Seth: The great ruler of Greece is Alexander the Great.

David: Oh, I know that guy.

Seth: We've heard of this man.

David: I've heard of that guy.

Seth: We know this man. He comes, he destroys the Persian Empire, and takes over its empire. However, he dies.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he leaves his kingdom to his son and his half-brother, but they die as well. And you notice, like, it will be divided towards the four winds of heaven, but not to his posterity.

David: Ah.

Seth: Alexander the Great's son did not truly inherit the kingdom.

David: No.

Seth: It was his four generals.

David: Mm.

Seth: The four winds of heaven. And then these four generals divide themselves into two power bases. One in Syria in the north, and they became known as the Seleucid Empire, and throughout the rest of this prophecy, they're just called the king of the South or the k- or the king of the North-

David: North

Seth: ... sorry.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then there's a power base in Egypt called the Ptolemaic Empire.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: And they're called the kings of the South. And there was another power base. And they fought with each other constantly, and they kind of represented large geopolitical powers over the course of the next 150 years. And then, geography lesson time, moving from history to geography-

David: Yes

Seth: ... who is right in the middle of Syria and Egypt?

David: Well, and it's, it's really important, because the whole time, they're called the kings of the North and the kings of the South-

Seth: But in relation to what? [laughs]

David: ... this doesn't make sense if you live in Russia.

Seth: Right. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: Those are all south.

Seth: They're all south.

David: You know, it, it only makes sense to say, well, who's smack dab in the middle of them to where the Seleucid is in the north and the, what was the other one?

Seth: Uh, the, the Ptolemaic.

David: The Ptolemaic is in the south.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Who's in the middle?

Seth: Israel.

David: Israel. [laughs]

Seth: Isr- and so we talked about this last week, but there's a sense that these prophecies that are given to Daniel, Israel seems to be the center of the world.

David: Right.

Seth: The all the world, all the nations of the world are more powerful than Israel, but somehow they all revolve around Israel.

David: Yeah, I mean, well, if that's God's house-

Seth: If that's God's house-

David: ... it is the center of the universe

Seth: ... that's the center of the universe. So, um, and so much of Israel's geopolitical history throughout the next 150 years is defined by the battles that happened in the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic Empires.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's a period of time where Israel tries to revolt, verse 14, "In those times many shall rise against the king of the south, and the violent among your own people shall lift themselves up in order to fulfill the vision." What vision? The vision of God ruling the world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The vision of Michael fighting-

David: Mm

Seth: ... on behalf of Israel. That vision.

David: Yeah.

Seth: They're gonna try to fulfill it, but they will fail.

David: Mm.

Seth: And that's kind of the history that it describes. It goes into far more detail. You can go into history textbooks and biblical scholars if you want more.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But that's the general gist.

David: Okay.

Seth: Until verse 21.

David: Oh, boy.

Seth: "A king of the north falls and is replaced by a contemptible person-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to whom royal majesty has not been given." So this interloper, this contemptible interloper.

David: [laughs]

Seth: "He'll come without warning, obtain kingdoms by flattery, and he, his armies will be utterly swept away and broken, even the Prince of the Covenants." This is interesting.

David: Okay.

Seth: You have this contemptible ruler rising up, and he is able to wipe away the Prince of the Covenant.

David: Mm.

Seth: So my first thought is, like, is that Michael?

David: The Prince of the Covenant?

Seth: Prince of the Covenant.

David: Oh.

Seth: Some scholars think it's, like, the priest in Israel's temple-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that has been rebuilt over the course of the last 150 years. Other pe- like, people have different-

David: Sure

Seth: ... opinions, but the important thing to see here is that this contemptible ruler, which scholars agree is Antiochus IV Epiphanes-

David: Mm

Seth: ... had a special hatred for the people of God-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and for the people of God's covenant.

David: Right.

Seth: And he has this concerted attack against them.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And actually, three different times we hear about this antagonism towards God's covenant and God's people. In verse 28, "He shall set his heart against the holy covenant." Verse 30, "He shall turn back and pay attention to those who forsake the holy covenant, and forces from he, will appear from him and profane the temple and fortress, and he will take away the burnt offerings."

David: Mm.

Seth: "And he will set up an abomination that makes desolate or causes desolation."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So what, what we're see... And we've talked about this before, but what Antiochus Epiphanes does, what it's talking about right here, is that when Antiochus Epiphanes gets to Jerusalem, he sacks the temple, erects a fortress right next to it called Acra, and then puts a statue of Zeus inside the temple and starts to offer pigs to this god.

David: The ultimate desecration-

Seth: The-

David: ... of Israel's temple.

Seth: Yes. And immediately after that, we have this interesting, like, side note about how some people will agree with him and some people won't agree with him.

David: Mm.

Seth: The people of God themselves will be seduced into Hellenization-

David: Right

Seth: ... while some hold onto, and it says the word wisdom-

David: Mm

Seth: ... which will be interesting, uh, later on in the chapter.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, but the final result is, like, until the end of time, this will remain true. That's kind of like the ending-

David: Mm

Seth: ... salvo. Now verse 36 starts being interesting, but for now, let's just stop right there.

David: Okay.

Seth: What's crazy, as I said before, what's crazy about this, this is an unprecedented type of prophecy within scripture, these detailed battle reports that are anonymized.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's no names attached to them, but track so well onto human history. It's, it's crazy.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Everyone agrees what they mean.

David: Right.

Seth: It's the fall of the Persian Empire, the rise of Greece, until the desolation of the temple under A- Antiochus Epiphanes.

David: Mm.

Seth: What is good news about that?

David: Yeah.

Seth: If I'm Daniel-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... I hope for a vision of Israel's victory.

David: Right.

Seth: What I hear is that while Israel's the center of the world, it's always the embattled center of the world.

David: Right.

Seth: It ping-pongs between the Seleucid into Ptolemaic empires, and eventually Greece is gonna come and set up its own statues in your center of the universe. It's a- [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: You know what I mean? Like-

David: Yeah, totally. Um, the, the news itself isn't good, but why is it good that we know the news before it happens?

Seth: Because God knows history before it happens.

David: Right.

Seth: And I think that's, before we move on into, like, there's hope that comes.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, this isn't the end of the vision.

David: No.

Seth: There's hope that comes. But, like, we need to focus on the fact that, like, it's good news that God knows history before it happens.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's good news that Jesus is in history, is in control of history before it happens.

David: Yeah, and he's been doing this all throughout the biblical narrative. You look at Genesis 3:15, you know, like, right after the fall.

Seth: Yeah.

David: God knows exactly how he's going to, to defeat Satan.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's going to crush his head, and the, and the person who crushes Satan's head is gonna have his heel bruised, and this is Jesus.

Seth: This is Jesus.

David: He knows the end of the story. He's, he's gonna call out, um, Abraham, and he's gonna say, "All nations are gonna be blessed through you-

Seth: Mm

David: ... even though you're barren. But I know the rest of the story."

Seth: Right.

David: "I'm gonna give you a son, and that son is going to lead to Jesus."

Seth: I'm the God of history.

David: I'm the God of history. Uh, y- you guys are enslaved in Egypt. Guess what? I'm gonna raise you up, Moses, and you're going to rescue my people from Pharaoh. Well, what if he says no? What if it doesn't work?

Seth: Mm.

David: I know it's gonna work. I'm the God of history.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I tell you things before it happens. And Isaiah really leans into this-

Seth: Mm

David: ... throughout his whole story.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Is the, the anchor of Isaiah is the fact that God is the God who knows and controls history, and that's the same thing that's happening here is although-

Seth: Right

David: ... right now the narrative seems to say that the history that's coming is kind of bleak, the good news is that God knows it.

Seth: Yeah. He's, and He's not forgetting his people, who-

David: Right

Seth: ... in God's prophetic imagination as he's giving this prophecy, he never loses Israel as the center of history.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, Israel, the people north of you, the people south, that's the reference point.

David: The re- Israel is the reference point-

Seth: So it's like-

David: ... for the happenings of history

Seth: ... it's a bleak thing, but God seems to, has his own eyes laser focused on the center of the world still.It's bleak.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But God as the author of history still has his eyes trained on what he believes is the center of his plans Israel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, and that you kept quoting things from Genesis. Like, how does Genesis end? What man intended for evil, God intends for good.

David: Yes.

Seth: And I also think about Jesus. How does Jesus in particular-

David: Mm

Seth: ... the author of history, and I, I always go to this one, in Acts 2:23.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "Jesus delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you," Romans, Jews, "crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: What's God doing in that moment? Equally big picture, crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

David: Mm.

Seth: But God was the author of history, and what happened? He raised him up.

David: I see.

Seth: rai- he raised Jesus up in that moment.

David: Right. The destruction of the temple described at the hands of Antiochus Epiphanes here in the story seems like really bad news.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But if God is the one in control of the story, even the destruction of the temple can be radically good news whenever it's in God's hands.

Seth: Right.

David: Because this is proven when Jesus, the Son of Man, the Son of God-

Seth: Mm

David: ... was destroyed like the temple-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... was as-

Seth: As a temple

David: ... as a temple. Was it bad news? No, it's the greatest news in the world.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Why? Because God was orchestrating and sovereign over the events of history in order to make the worst news the best news.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's awesome.

Seth: It's awesome.

David: Because w- w- it's awesome because that means no matter what's happening in history, no matter how terrible it is, we know that God can take the worst news and make the best news out of it. Because God is the God who takes death and can make it life. He can take destruction and make it construction, right? He can take Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificing pigs and desecrating the temple into the rebirth of a nation.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He can do that.

Seth: That's amazing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's amazing what he's able to make out of human evil.

David: Yeah, it really is.

Seth: And it's also... I keep thinking about that phrase, "O man deeply loved by God."

David: Mm.

Seth: That God, he touches Daniel.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "O man, deeply loved by..." Or the angel touches Daniel. "O man, deeply loved by God." And in the middle of all the chaos of the Seleucid and the Ptolemaic empires, we keep saying God's eyes-

David: Mm

Seth: ... didn't leave Israel. Um, and that was encouraging before the resurrection.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so I'm even thinking now, more than likely, I'm not gonna see resurrection until I die.

David: [laughs] Right.

Seth: You know-

David: More than likely.

Seth: More than likely. [laughs] And the world around me will look a lot like the Book of Daniel.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Empires falling, chaos, pride, contemptible leaders, contemptible rulers.

David: Mm.

Seth: People more powerful than me controlling me.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, that's my general state of being. And in the middle of all that, where is God's sight?

David: Mm.

Seth: On his people.

David: Right.

Seth: Laser focused on his people. The reference point for all the kingdoms of the world and the chaos of the world is still his people.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, that, that's still true. So, like, I have this, like, before I get resurrection, before I get the promise of resurrection, which is great, I know that when I die, I get it. Before that, I have the deep desire of God, that I'm a man, a child, a family, deeply loved, deeply coveted by God.

David: Mm.

Seth: And he looks at me and references history... Like, I am the reference point for history in God's eyes. Like, you know what I'm trying to say?

David: [laughs]

Seth: I'm like, I'm like, I'm trying to, like, land this plane because I'm like, if Israel is the reference point for history-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... God's people now, before history ends, are his reference point. His eyes are trained on us-

David: Mm

Seth: ... so that he might care for us now and eventually give us resurrection.

David: Yeah. That's just really heavy good news.

Seth: [laughs]

David: 'Cause I, I think words like from the Psalms, like, "Keep me as the apple of your eye."

Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

David: Like, kind of roll off my back. But then when you say in a kind of an inescapable way, I think you're right that the church, the body of Christ, God's people here on the planet, which I'm a part of, are the apple of God's eye, the reference point for history. That wherever we are, the Seleucid Empire is north of us, you know? [laughs] Like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... that [laughs] it just is a little overwhelming-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... to have that much of the gaze of God on me. A- a, like, to have that much value, to be that deeply loved by the Metal Man.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: That I can see why Daniel fainted.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I just, that kind of radical love, that he keeps his sons and daughters at the center of his sight, even whenever there's chaos in the world, and he's actually orchestrating that chaos to make-

Seth: Mm

David: ... sure he takes care of us, is just-

Seth: Mm

David: ... a lot of love and care for us.

Seth: Yeah, and it's counterintuitive, because I would assume that God's, God's gaze on me would mean protection.

David: That there would never be chaos swirling around me.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right.

Seth: But that's not life as it's lived, is it?

David: No, no.

Seth: And so what I'd need in a life of chaos is to know that God sees me.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And he does. That's the good news of the first part of this prophecy. [upbeat music] Are you ready for some controversy?

David: Always. I, I live on controversy.

Seth: Oh. [laughs]

David: No, not at all. Yes, I'm ready. Okay.

Seth: So verse 36-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... to the end of chapter 11, and then onwards into Daniel chapter 12, verse four.

David: All scholars agree on

Seth: No scholars agree on it. [laughs]

David: [laughs] Oh.

Seth: Oh.

David: Right, controversy.

Seth: Oh, oh, yeah.

David: I forgot.

Seth: Controversy.

David: Okay, sure.

Seth: We forgot-

David: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure

Seth: ... what we're, we're, what we're talking about here. Um, so what ends up happening in verse 36 is that a lot of people think that the prophecy Daniel gets continues to describe Antiochus Epiphanes and the end of his reign.

David: Mm-hmm, because he, he just is talking about all the things that this king will do, and then in 36 it says, "And the king shall do as he wills, he shall exalt himself and magnify himself above every god." And without skipping a beat, the reference point just seems the same. This king.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: However, uh, verse 42-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... talks about the conquering of Egypt.

David: Right.

Seth: And it als- in verse 45, talks about this king building palaces in Israel. These are not things that Antiochus Epiphanes ever did. These are historical inaccuracies if this king is supposed to be Antiochus Epiphanes.

David: And if those two things are literal historical events.

Seth: Right.

David: Okay.

Seth: So this is where th- the controversy comes in. So ha- is this king a different king?

David: Right. Is this not Antiochus Epiphanes-

Seth: Or-

David: ... it's something else?

Seth: If it is Antiochus Epiphanes, maybe Daniel got the prophecy wrong.

David: Right.

Seth: Or maybe these things don't mean what we think they mean, and conquering Egypt is code for-

David: Something else

Seth: ... being super powerful.

David: Right. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Right, you know.

David: He was greater than Pharaoh.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right.

Seth: And, like, making a palace in the temple is just code for the abomination of desolation.

David: Sure.

Seth: So like, so that's part of the controversy.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like, okay, we seem to be th- talking about something that's not as clear as what happened before.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: On top of that, we got, we get different kind of language here than we had previously.

David: Right. It's not the old boring battle strategies that preceded it.

Seth: Right. Now we get some like, really elevated, almost apocalyptic type language. Verse 36, "And the king will do as he wills. He will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god, and speak astonishing things against the God of gods. He'll pay no attention to the gods of his fathers or to the one beloved by women. He shall not pay attention to any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all."

David: Yeah, it's getting theological up in here.

Seth: It is.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And, like, no other king of the north or king of the south has been described this way. Like-

David: No, they've been described very dispassionately

Seth: ... even, and, like, even Antiochus Epiphanes, the first time he's mentioned, contemptible ruler.

David: Right.

Seth: Super-

David: A- anonymous, yeah

Seth: ... anonymous, but also, like, clearly that he's different.

David: Yep.

Seth: But not the level of detail we're given here.

David: Right.

Seth: So a lot of scholars think this means that we're moving from the prose prophecy-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that has its own unique style-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and back into apocalyptic genres-

David: I understand

Seth: ... where we need to start pulling on different skills in order to understand it.

David: Okay.

Seth: So all that being said, here are the options.

David: All right.

Seth: One, this is a f- talking about Antiochus Epiphanes-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and we just misunderstand what's happening here.

David: Sure.

Seth: Or Daniel got it wrong.

David: Those are your two options.

Seth: [laughs]

David: The, the second option doesn't, doesn't work for us.

Seth: [laughs] The second option-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... that most, I think most Christians will probably fall into this camp.

David: Mm.

Seth: This is talking about the antichrist at the end of time.

David: Mm.

Seth: The prophecy doesn't stop at the end of chapter 11, but goes on to chapter 12 and says this, um, "At that time," continuing the prophecies of here, "Michael shall arise, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as has never been seen since there was a nation till that time. But at that time, your people will be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And those who are asleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt."

David: Mm.

Seth: So the end of the prophecy talks about the eternal destiny of souls. So we haven't reached a point where eternal destiny of souls is written, been here like this. This must be the end of time.

David: Oh, sure.

Seth: This must be the antichrist coming. There's a final conflict at the end of history, and then finally, Jesus Christ returns-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and all those who are dead rise from the dead, and they're judged in that day, and they go to their eternal destiny.

David: I see.

Seth: And I think that's probably the majority view of many, many people.

David: Okay.

Seth: Um, there's another way to think about this-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... uh, that I, that says that both of those things are true.

David: Mm.

Seth: There's a technical term called prophetic foreshortening.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, and I'll just talk about, like, prophetic telescoping.

David: Yes. I li- like that better.

Seth: Um, so imagine Daniel's being given this vision.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And God shows him this great vista, and he sees a mountain range in the distance.

David: Yeah, far, far away, it's this-

Seth: In the distance

David: ... little mountain.

Seth: This giant mountain, and as he's looking at it, he understands that he sees these kings of the north battling these kings of the south. At a point in history, this great leader comes, more proud than all of them. It ends in this massive conflict-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that brings us to this moment where eternal souls are judged.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, okay, I see it.

David: That looks like a singularity.

Seth: A single-

David: A single mountain

Seth: ... a single mountain. Antiochus Epiphanes brings on the end of the world and the final judgment.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then as history goes on and Daniel has died, we're given a telescope.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And as we zoom in on that same mountain range that Daniel has, we realize the mountain isn't one mountain, it's a mountain range.

David: Right.

Seth: It's 10 mountains.

David: Yes.

Seth: Four mountains, and what he saw as one event is actually four events.

David: Yes.

Seth: And we already have a picture of this, the happening in the Book of Daniel.

David: Mm.

Seth: If you go back to those beasts that Daniel sees rising out of the ocean.

David: Oh, yes.

Seth: One of the beasts has four horns.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But that represents four different kings that exist over a span of time.

David: Right.

Seth: Not one king in one moment of time that happened to have four horns.

David: Right. You have a prophetic singularity representing multiple historical phases.

Seth: Yes. Um, and even in the dream of, like, Nebuchadnezzar, that he goes insane.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Like, the dream happen- like, he turns into an animal, dream ends.That represents seven years. Like, one event-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... telescoped out-

David: Yes

Seth: ... means more than just that.

David: Right.

Seth: And so what I think is happening here is Daniel has a vision of a mountain that's actually a mountain range.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And as history progresses, we see different peaks of this mountain, and this contemptible ruler that turns into this extremely proud man who exalts himself above all the gods, and then who, who overtakes Egypt and builds a temple, uh, builds his own palace in the, in Israel-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and then eternal souls are judged. I think what Daniel saw was multiple events throughout redemptive history.

David: Mm.

Seth: The prophetic to... And I think Jesus proves this.

David: Mm.

Seth: When Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple in AD 70-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in Matthew 23 and 24 and 25, um, he borrows language from the Book of Daniel to make the point.

David: Yes.

Seth: And he calls the abomination that causes desolation what Emperor Titus did in AD 70. So is Jesus right or is Daniel right?

David: Yes.

Seth: Yes.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Daniel saw the mountain.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Jesus sees five mountain peaks ahead-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and he's giving us one more iteration of what this prophecy looks like-

David: Right

Seth: ... in real time until the end.

David: Yes.

Seth: Does that make sense?

David: I think so. Yeah, I think so. Uh, it, it makes as much sense as maybe it should [laughs] right now.

Seth: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I could be wrong.

David: Sure.

Seth: I totally could be wrong. But I think what this allows us to say is that we see here, Daniel sees part of history accurately.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And then as his imagination stretches into the apocalyptic and he sees further and further, it gets a little bit more fuzzy. And as time goes on and as Jesus comes, he reveals more and more clearly what's gonna happen. Yes, it's, it was about Antiochus Epiphanes. Also yes, it was about Rome in AD 70. Also yes, it's about a final conflict when Jesus will defeat all evil and rule forever and all souls will be judged.

David: Mm.

Seth: It's about all of them.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And the good news of all these things, um, is in chapters 12, verses one and two.

David: Mm.

Seth: "But at that time your people will be delivered,"

David: Mm.

Seth: "everyone whose name shall be found written in that Book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting contempt." What's the end of history? What's the end of the prophetic cycle? That the wicked will be judged, the righteous and the wise will live forever, and justice will be done.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: No matter how long history takes to be accomplished, no matter how many versions of Antiochus Epiphanes there are, what is God's plan? What is the metal man's plan for all of history? The wicked will be judged. Evil will be vanquished. The righteous will live forever.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Justice will be done.

David: Right, which is really good news when you have a prophetic telescope that shows you that 200 years of history is not gonna turn out great in the immediate future for you and your people, and you're like, "Well, I'm gonna be dead before any good stuff happens."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "What's my hope?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Other than the fact that God's in control and is keeping me at the center of his, his eye, good news.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But still, still just gonna die in exile.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah, but that dust you go down to die in-

Seth: Mm

David: ... is not gonna be your final resting place.

Seth: Yeah.

David: You will be raised up to eternal life with me.

Seth: Right. And I think what that, that, that vision of, like, this double resurrection, this is one of the few times in Old Testament that-

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: ... this idea of, like, there'll be, like, a reckoning where wicked people are judged and righteous people are given eternal life-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it's one of the few places it happens in the Old Testament.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, what I think that does is it gives me, like, three different ways to think about that reality.

David: Mm.

Seth: It happens in history. Antiochus Epiphanes is dead.

David: Right. He was judged.

Seth: He was judged.

David: Yep, his kingdom's over.

Seth: And what happened? Israel got its land back.

David: Right.

Seth: The people of God had a temple again.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Sacrifices returned for a time.

David: Right.

Seth: Um, and then it ha- then Rome came.

David: Right.

Seth: But during that time, Jesus died-

David: Right

Seth: ... and rose again. And right now on the earth, what happens when you die?

David: Mm.

Seth: Some are raised to eternal life-

David: Right

Seth: ... and others to shame.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then what happens at the end of time? The same thing. There's a prophetic telescope even to this hope right here. And I think that was n- a little bit new for me as I was coming to this. Like, I'm used to hearing language like, "Those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life."

David: Mm.

Seth: There's only one reference for that, the end of time-

David: Oh

Seth: ... when Jesus comes back.

David: Right.

Seth: That's when that's all gonna happen.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: But, like, I think Daniel's teaching me to think about it happening more than once. It happens in history with every proud ruler that ever falls-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and every good person that ever survives, happens again when Jesus saves me-

David: Right

Seth: ... and promises me eternal life.

David: You are there now.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And it will happen ultimately when all evil, all evil, proud empires are done away with and only the Kingdom of God is left.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That happens multiple times.

David: Yeah. That's really good.

Seth: Do you wanna hear how the divine being ends this?

David: Oh, do I wanna hear how the divine being finally lands this plane?

Seth: Yes.

David: Yes, I do. Where, where do we go from here? [laughs]

Seth: Verse four.

David: Okay.

Seth: "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, seal the book until the end. Many will run to and fro, and knowledge will increase." Period.

David: Mm.

Seth: And that's it.

David: It would be a really strange publishing error if you just had the, the words, "But you, Daniel, shut up" and then-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... you had to turn the page, "the words," and seal the book.

Seth: [laughs]

David: You're like, "Whoa, that's mean. Oh, okay." But what he's telling him is, he's like, "I know you have a lot of questions. I know there's a lot of things left unsaid and unanswered, but here's what I need you to do. You need to shut up the words of these book, uh, uh, and seal it, because the, the questions that you have about, 'Well, what will this look like? How long will it last? When will it happen? When will we actually have a temple that we can worship in forever?'"Like when are these answers gonna finally come it's, it- it's not time to tell that part of the story yet I've read as much of the scroll to you about the future-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... as I'm gonna read, so roll up the rest of the story-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... put a seal on it and we're not gonna open it again for a while.

Seth: The, yeah, the end of human history has been written down.

David: Mm-hmm. It has been written. The whole story, not just what we read here.

Seth: The whole story.

David: There was more on that scroll.

Seth: Yeah. It's like the prophetic telescope has more layers.

David: Yes.

Seth: There's more lenses. The, the, the mountain range might be 100 mountains.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They've all been written down. It has been sealed.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's the end of the vision. [gentle music]

David: So why is it good news that Daniel's story ends with a sealed-up scroll, that all the answers that he wanted, that we want, that the rest of the story ends up being hidden and put away instead of unfurled? Why is, why is a, a [laughs] a shorter story better than a longer story? 'Cause I feel like we want, we always want more answers and more clarity, and yet I think God knew what was right and said, "This is what you need now. Seal up the rest." Why is that good news-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... without getting to the final, final, final version of the good news in Revelation-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... for now? Why is it being sealed good news?

Seth: Well, so Daniel hasn't asked any questions about this vision yet.

David: Mm.

Seth: But the words Daniel needs are ended.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And so just also seeing Daniel's reaction to more minor images and representations and visions where he's just laid out flat and basically goes into a coma, like maybe there's just mercy-

David: Right

Seth: ... in some mysteries being kept hidden.

David: It's like, man, if I told you more than this, if I didn't seal it up, you would die. [laughs]

Seth: Yeah. Yeah.

David: You, you would go nuts. Your brain would fall out of your ears.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Obviously, he has questions. He's about to ask them.

David: Right.

Seth: He's about to ask them.

David: Yes.

Seth: Um, but I think there's probably just mercy in the fact that God doesn't tell us all the details of history, instead says, "Will you just trust me with history instead?"

David: I think that's really good. I have two, I have two thoughts based on that 'cause I think that's really good. I think, one, is the seal is meant to lead us to trust, that the best thing we need are not answers.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: It's not history before it happens.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The best thing we need is what God was trying to do in telling Daniel history before it happens.

Seth: Yeah.

David: What was he trying to do? Build his hope and build his trust. Faith and hope.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And love is in there, too. Like love, faith, and hope, that's what we need. And so-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... what we need to get out of-

Seth: Mm

David: ... Daniel is not all the answers-

Seth: Right

David: ... and the exact timeline and what's the perfect history. What we need to get is this, the, the reason it was given in the first place, which is-

Seth: Mm

David: ... can you trust me-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that I'm in control? Can I give you hope that the future is sure? Can you take my love for you and know that you're, you're in the center of my vision?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That's what we need more-

Seth: Can you trust that history has a definitive end, and that I've sealed it up-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and that it's mine?

David: Right.

Seth: Will you trust me until it unfolds?

David: Yeah.

Seth: You know, like-

David: Mm-hmm. The secrets in God's hands are better than the answers in ours.

Seth: Yeah. And I think this is probably a good point. Another way to say this is we just recounted a lot of Persian and Greek history.

David: Yes, we did. [laughs]

Seth: Daniel would've known none of that.

David: Right.

Seth: And yet it would still have been an encouragement to him. Why? Because God knew history down to the detail, and Daniel didn't need to know the names of the kings.

David: Right.

Seth: Didn't know, need to know the names of Antiochus Epiphanes. We get the benefit of knowing that.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's an additional encouragement for us. But for Daniel, what he really needed in that moment of exile was a detailed knowledge, not of history before it happened, but of the God who knows history before it happens.

David: Right. Which is what we need, too.

Seth: Which is exactly what we need, too.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because we d- the scroll is still sealed for us.

David: Mm.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um-

David: There's still, there's still history to tell.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The end of time has not come.

Seth: Right.

David: Time marches on. Russia and Ukraine are at war. Like bad things are happening.

Seth: Bad things are happening.

David: The story's still... We still don't know the rest of the story.

Seth: Right. And imagine God came to us and gave us this prophecy about kings of the north and kings of the south.

David: Right.

Seth: And we wouldn't know the references for this necessarily.

David: Mm-mm.

Seth: Right? Like-

David: No, we wouldn't

Seth: ... we... I was like, is that Canada and Mexico?

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: Like, or, or is that... Yeah, right [laughs] like who, like what are we talking about here? [laughs] Like I don't know the names of these unnamed kings. Which daughter? Which man?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which contemptible ruler? I don't know.

David: That's not what matters.

Seth: That's not what matters.

David: What matters is God is trying to come to you and say, "I've got this. Trust me."

Seth: Yeah.

David: "I love you. Hope in me."

Seth: And I think that gets to, like the difficulty of faith in God.

David: Mm.

Seth: God is not giving you the answers. He's giving you himself.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He's saying, "I'm the God of history. Trust me."

David: Yeah.

Seth: And then the same thing happens with Jesus. "I'm the God who enters into human experience."

David: Yeah.

Seth: "Will you trust me while your human experience looks like mine, suffering, crucifixion, death?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: "Will you pick up your cross and still trust that I control death and life? Will you die trusting that there's life on the other side?"

David: Mm.

Seth: "Will you trust me knowing that history will be bleak until it's not?"

David: Man, that's a r- really interesting way to think about it because, you know, Jesus comes to us and he gives us commands like, "If you wanna save your life, lose it." Right? That's a prophecy. I know that there's gonna be a king of the north and the king of the south.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You're like, "Okay, uh, can I get some more details about what it will look like if I give up my life? Will you really save it?"Like, are you really asking me to quit that job and take this one?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Are you really asking me to take this leap of faith here?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Can I get some more details?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: He's like, "No, no, no, I'm not after giving you the details. I'm, I'm, I'll give you what you need, which is give up your life and, and you'll save it."

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: "Now I, now, now what you need to just trust me-

Seth: Mm

David: ... that I'm able to do it."

Seth: Yeah.

David: God wants your hope and your trust, uh, because He's proven time and time again that He deserves it.

Seth: Yeah. And after the fact, we can read 200 years of God being faithful-

David: Right

Seth: ... to unfold history as He said it would.

David: Yeah, that's amazing. Okay. But we have to get to something that is really cool.

Seth: Okay.

David: Because in our Bible... Oh, I, oh, hold on. Speaking of the Bible, I have to say something-

Seth: Speaking of the Bible. [laughs]

David: ... I have to say something else. I w- i- that was only one part of my reflection after hearing-

Seth: Mm

David: ... everything that you, you said. The other was, um, it's an interesting way to think about the Bible itself as, you know, the canon of scripture is, um, a scroll that was sealed up. Could God have said more than the books we have?

Seth: Mm.

David: Yes, tons more. [laughs] Could, could He have given us more of the story? Yes, tons more, but that's not what we need.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: What we need is what He's given us, and what we need is the God that the, the, what the, that the Bible's trying to get us to hope in.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So I just think it's interesting to think about the sealed scroll that Daniel was seeing-

Seth: Right

David: ... kind of like the Bible is, is like-

Seth: Yeah, there will always be an... Like, we will always have a question the Bible can't answer.

David: Right. But that's not a problem.

Seth: Right.

David: [laughs] That we've been given enough because we know the God in whom we hope.

Seth: We know Jesus.

David: We know Jesus. Okay. Anyway.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But that Bible that doesn't tell us everything does tell us something very significant about this scroll and its seal-

Seth: It-

David: ... because it comes back in Revelation.

Seth: There's no other time in scripture a seal is broken and opened until after this point-

David: Right

Seth: ... until the Book of Revelation.

David: Right. So, so the scroll is sealed and shelved-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... and it's not picked up again until Revelation. And John sees this scroll. John is kind of experiencing Daniel 2.0.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: I mean, he's already seen the metal man and described him just like Daniel did, and then he sees the scroll of Daniel again. He's like, "[gasps] Okay, I've seen the God of Daniel. There's the scroll of Daniel, but I don't know how the story's going to end. I wanna know where Daniel left off. What, what happens after Daniel? What's the rest of the story?"

Seth: Right.

David: And he, like, starts crying. Like, John just starts crying 'cause no one can open the scroll.

Seth: First-

David: It's sealed up

Seth: ... Revelation 5:3, "And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look into it."

David: Right.

Seth: "And I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll and to look into it." No one was worthy-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to open the scroll of history to find out how God's plans for the world end.

David: Yeah, until this lion/lamb figure shows up, which is Jesus himself, and all of the saints around the throne start saying, "Worthy, worthy, worthy are you to open the scroll."

Seth: [sighs]

David: Like, the, the person has finally arisen who can-

Seth: What-

David: ... read the end of the story.

Seth: What Daniel has helped me so much with, and even you said that lion/lamb figure.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like, who's worthy to open up the scroll of history?

David: Mm.

Seth: What are the kings of the... The, and the kings of the, and the empires of the world have been consistently described as animals.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Right?

David: Yep.

Seth: A beast, a half-ox, half-bird nightmare.

David: Right.

Seth: Even God is described that way.

David: Half lion, half lamb.

Seth: He's half lion and half lamb, and He's the one worthy to unlock history-

David: Right

Seth: ... to unlock the end of God's plan for the world.

David: Yes. And so He opens it, and what do we see? Now, I can get into all the prophetic language, but to say it simply as you've said it before, Seth, what happens? The, the wicked are judged.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: The righteous live forever, and justice is done. [laughs]

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Everything Daniel hoped for-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... is the end of the story. [laughs]

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, the seal is broken, and y- the wicked are wiped out. The seal is broken, and the righteous are then able to return to God, and they're able to praise Him and worship Him and send their prayers to Him, and what is it described as? It's, it's described as sacrifices and incense rising up to the throne of God. What is he saying? In Revelation, he's saying, "Guys, the seal's gonna be broken, and let me tell you the end of the story. The temple that Antiochus Epiphanes destroyed, the temple that's about to be d- destroyed again by the Emperor Titus is n- is not going to be able to be destroyed forever." Sacrifices are happening now.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Sacrifices to God and communion with Him will happen forever, no matter what country you're in, no matter which angelic prince, territorial thing you might be under. [laughs] Like, you have always, you always have access to God because the temple is you-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... my people, and your prayers are the incense.

Seth: Oh.

David: And so, like, this big abomination which causes desolation, the defeat of the temple, which is like the end of the world to Israel, is not the end of the world anymore. It's not the end of the story.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The seal's opened, and we, we learn that Jesus is the temple, and we can always be with Him.

Seth: Yeah. You know, I keep thinking about, um, the end of history, the end of the scroll. The wicked are judged. The righteous live forever. Um, and justice is done.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Um, who are the righteous?

David: Mm.

Seth: What qualifies you as a righteous person? To be in exile because of your sin?

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Like, who, like, who's, who is Daniel assuming the righteous are? Oh.

David: Yeah, the people of Israel.

Seth: The people of Israel who have been exiled because they've been so sinful.

David: Yeah, just a few chapters ago, he was admitting all that. [laughs]

Seth: Right. So I just keep meditating on this.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I'm thinking, like, you know, whenever I, like, well, the wicked-Will be judged, but the righteous-

David: Mm.

Seth: I just have these, you know, strong categories. Like, well, that seems unfair. [laughs] Well, you know what I mean.

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: You know what I mean?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, but the people who are righteous are not different from the wicked-

David: Mm

Seth: ... except that they trust the end of the story.

David: Right.

Seth: And that they're willing to trust the God who writes history.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think it's really interesting. I told- We- I s- I flagged the word wisdom before.

David: Mm.

Seth: After Antiochus Epiphanes comes, there's a split.

David: Yeah.

Seth: There's this group of Jews who want to Hellenize, become Greek.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And there's another group of Jews that become wise and keep to the scrolls-

David: Right

Seth: ... keep to the Torah.

David: Yes.

Seth: Verse 3 of Chapter 12, "And those who are wise," same word again, "shall shine like the brightness of the sky above, and those who turn many to righteousness will become like the stars forever and ever." And then again in Chapter 12, Verse 10, "None of the wicked will understand this, but those that are wise will understand." What's it- What is he talking about? The wicked don't understand that the end of the world is justice.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: They don't understand that the wicked are judged and the righteous live forever.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But what do the wise know? They trust through the chaos, knowing at the end of the day, the righteous are those who live by faith in the man who knows history before it happens.

David: Yep.

Seth: But-

David: And Jesus does the same thing in the Olivet Discourse when he's describing the destruction of the temple to the people, to his disciples. He's describing the end of the temple, and he says, "Let the wise understand."

Seth: Mm. That's right.

David: So he's saying the y- the destruction of the temple is not gonna look like good news, and he describes it like it's gonna be really bad for pregnant women on those days.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

David: It's gonna be a terrible day, such that has never happened before, but let the wise understand that this is part of my story.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: You gotta trust me.

Seth: And there's justice for you if you trust me-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and judgment for evil if you don't.

David: Yeah. The righteous are those who trust God's wisdom in writing the end of the story-

Seth: Right

David: ... however he chooses to tell it.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Mm.

Seth: I've got one last thing to throw at you.

David: Okay. What, what... Yeah, 'cause we still have verses left.

Seth: Still got a lot of verses left.

David: [laughs]

Seth: So the, Daniel hears all of that.

David: Okay.

Seth: We don't know how much he figured out after the end of that, but we're all of a sudden back on the banks of the river, introduced back in Chapter 10.

David: Oh, right, where he passed out.

Seth: Where he passed out.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And all of a sudden, two others, two new spiritual beings-

David: Oh, boy

Seth: ... are straddling the river along with this metal man.

David: Okay.

Seth: And one of the angels says, "Well, how long will it be to the end of these wonders?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: "When will all this happen?" And then I heard the man clothed in linen, which I think is fascinating. We've been calling him a metal man. The detail that Daniel points out is that he's clothed in linen-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... which, as we've said before, is a picture of, like, a priestly quality-

David: Mm

Seth: ... to this person, something he'll do in the priestly realm, however. And he was floating above the waters [laughs] of the stream.

David: Oh, my gosh.

Seth: And then he raised his right hand and his left hand towards heaven and swore by him who lives forever-

David: Mm

Seth: ... that it would be a time, times, and half a time. And then there would be a shattering of the people, of the power of the holy people, and then the end of all these things will be finished. So he, like the-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... prophecy keeps unfolding.

David: Right.

Seth: But here's some interesting things to point out. So we keep saying this metal man, this man in linen, is God.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There is another time in scripture where water and a divine being lifts up his hands-

David: Mm

Seth: ... happens, and it's in Deuteronomy 32. Moses is giving his song to Israel celebrating the fact that God has just liberated them from Egypt.

David: Right.

Seth: He's just parted the waters of the Red Sea. And then in the middle of the song, the tense changes and he starts speaking on behalf of God. And he says God himself lifts up one hand and he sa- and he promises to defeat all evil.

David: Mm.

Seth: So to see that same image here, but both hands to be lifted up above waters to be parted-

David: Mm

Seth: ... and monsters to be crushed is the same thing happening. God-

David: But more fully.

Seth: But more fully.

David: Yeah.

Seth: There will be an ultimate justice against the evil of the world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It will come after a period of suffering, which we all experience every day.

David: Yes.

Seth: It will come in a time, times, and half a time.

David: Right.

Seth: Daniel's like, "Well, tell me... Give me more details, God."

David: "Can I get more details?"

Seth: Time, time, a ti- half a time is very vague. Uh, and then the being says these are, words are shut up. They are sealed to the end of time.

David: Yep.

Seth: The wi- the wise will know that justice will win.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: The righteous will live forever. The wicked will be judged. But know this, between the days of the abomination of desolation, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is he who arrives the 1,335 days. [laughs] Go on your way until the end, and you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days.

David: That's the last sentence of Daniel.

Seth: That's the last sentence of Daniel.

David: It ends in a riddle.

Seth: And it ends in a riddle. So we got a lot of things to talk about here, but I want to say them briefly.

David: Okay.

Seth: Did the metal man, the man in linen-

David: Mm

Seth: ... give us a date?

David: Do you want me to answer that?

Seth: Yes.

David: No. [laughs]

Seth: He gave time, times, and half a time.

David: Right.

Seth: Which is interesting for a couple reasons.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's intentionally vague.

David: Right.

Seth: Two, it's been repeated already in the Book of Daniel.

David: Mm.

Seth: In Daniel Chapter 7-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... it's what the Ancient of Days says.

David: Right.

Seth: Or the, the, it's actually the angel that says-

David: Oh, okay

Seth: ... these things will happen. When will the beast be crushed, and when will the Son of Man rise and take his seat next to the right hand of God?

David: Mm.

Seth: In a time, in a times, in a half a times. A lot of people have seen this as three and a half years, right?

David: Okay. [laughs]

Seth: Uh, like times, two years, time, one year, half a time, half a year.Three and a half years.

David: Okay

Seth: And then 1,335 days and 1,290 days, about three and a half years. And, you know, 1,290 days and 1,335 days, it's about-

David: Half a year, or three, three and a half years

Seth: ... three and a half years.

David: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: Um, however, I, I think it's the wrong impulse to put a specific date on it.

David: Right.

Seth: Because it kinda seems to fight against the vagueness-

David: The spirit in which it was given [laughs]

Seth: ... right, the vagueness of the prophecy to Daniel-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is kind of obscured by the fact that we can look back on history and see how, na- name all the characters involved.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Daniel didn't know that. They were all vague things. Time, times, and half a time is an intentionally vague answer because we're already told twice that these things have been sealed up to the end of time.

David: Right.

Seth: Revelation also tells us the scroll isn't opened up again until Jesus himself takes the throne.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So I think, like, it's the wrong impulse to try to put, like, a specific date on this-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and to kinda live in the mystery of not knowing when these things happen.

David: Right. 'Cause the impulse is trust, like, is, is what you want.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Whenever you're given a vague timeline, what's the appropriate response?

Seth: Trust.

David: Trust.

Seth: Yeah. And it also actually makes me think about a story in Daniel 5.

David: Yes.

Seth: King, uh, Belshazzar.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's writing on the wall.

David: Right.

Seth: And it says, "Mene, mene, tekel, and parsin."

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Now, we talked about this back in our Daniel 5 ep- episode, but w- we mentioned that all those are unit of measurements.

David: Right.

Seth: You have a mina.

David: Yep.

Seth: Two minas.

David: Yep, two minas.

Seth: A shekel and a half shekel.

David: Right.

Seth: Similarly, we have two units of time, or double unit of time, times.

David: Yeah. Time, yeah. You have the time itself-

Seth: Yep

David: ... times, a couple of times.

Seth: And then half a time.

David: A, a shekel time [laughs].

Seth: And so it's interesting that you have a similar response in units of measurement, one u- measurements of time-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... another in measurements of weight in Daniel 5.

David: Mm-hmm, yes.

Seth: And in Daniel chapter 5, this two, one, half-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... type of riddley answer was meant to humble King Belshazzar.

David: Right, which it didn't.

Seth: Which it didn't.

David: [laughs]

Seth: And he died.

David: Yes.

Seth: I also think it's interesting that after Belshazzar heard that prophecy, his career as king ended.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And as soon as Daniel hears the same prophecy, his prophecy ends, too.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I think this idea of a two, one, half-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... type of fulfillment isn't supposed to give us a more concrete expectation of a particular day, it's meant to drive us to the humility Belshazzar didn't have-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... but Nebuchadnezzar did.

David: Right.

Seth: And remember how Nebuchadnezzar-

David: Mm

Seth: ... ended his story arc in the Book of Daniel?

David: By praising God, who has all authority.

Seth: His dominion is an everlasting dominion.

David: Yeah.

Seth: His kingdom endures from generation to generation. The inhabitants of the earth are like nothing. He does according to his will among the hosts of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Both the princes of Persia and Greece and the kings of the earth, and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"

David: Mm.

Seth: And I honestly think that is the point of the Book of Daniel.

David: Yes.

Seth: You're meant to say that-

David: Yep

Seth: ... at the end of the Book of Daniel.

David: That God is sovereign over all, and no one can say to him, "What have you done?"

Seth: Yeah.

David: Yep.

Seth: There are dates and timelines, and they have been sealed up.

David: And God knows them.

Seth: God knows them, and we're supposed to humbly wait in suffering-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... until he restores everything.

David: Yeah, and that's what Jesus is doing right now.

Seth: That's exactly what he's doing right now.

David: And he's... And whenever he says, um, "No one knows the day or the hour, not even the Son of Man," instead of trying to figure it out anyway [laughs] which is-

Seth: Right

David: ... what a lot of people try to do.

Seth: I wanna know.

David: I think what he's calling us to do there is to be like, "It's time, times, and half a time, guys. No one knows. Don't try to figure it out." The point is humble yourself-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... under the master who has said, "I am coming back."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Don't try to just figure out when, but live in the fact that it's happening.

Seth: S- our staff writer, Christine-

David: Mm

Seth: ... pointed out that it's interesting that 1,290 and 1,335 is basically the same amount of time, you know, but they're also different.

David: Right.

Seth: There's an asynchronous chronology happening.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: There's two different dates that are around the same time, but they're not the same time, but we're commanded to hope in that same thing.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And she talked about how it's interesting that that's kind of the lived experience of Christians throughout the world and throughout the people of God in general, and after a certain number of days, uh, God's people are elevated.

David: Mm.

Seth: And then a certain number of days later, they're crushed under the boots. For a certain period of time, they will be harshly judged-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... under the, the whim of the empires, but then a certain number of days later, God will raise them up. The wicked will be judged 1,290 days. It will take a little bit, but then the righteous will rule again.

David: 45 days later.

Seth: 45 days later.

David: Yeah [laughs].

Seth: Or the other way around, like-

David: Right

Seth: ... the 1,290 days, the, the righteous... You know, whatever.

David: Yeah, whatever. The, the, the point is, um, it's kinda like what we were talking about earlier. We as Christians have been raised to life now, but we still die.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But we will be raised to life later when death is defeated.

Seth: Right.

David: It's safe-

Seth: Sin has been beaten-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... by Jesus' cross, but I still sin, and I still struggle with it, and... But its power is defeated.

David: Right.

Seth: Wait, what?

David: Asynchronous chronology, or another way to talk about it is inaugurated eschatology.

Seth: Like, we have part of God's kingdom living in us now-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... but not the full kingdom yet.

David: Right, the already and the not yet.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And Daniel is inviting us into that tension. You will be delivered, Israel, but Daniel's gonna die in exile.

Seth: Yeah

David: [laughs] It's the already and the not yet. And somehow that provided him hope and courage and freedom from fear.

Seth: And I think it does me too-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because I guess God could've done it a different way.

David: He, yeah, He's God. He probably could have.

Seth: He could've just come and ended it all.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Jesus came, the new world started.

David: Right.

Seth: So I guess the question is then if it's good news ... Well, I guess that [laughs] that's the question. Is it good news that there's an asynchro-

David: Right

Seth: ... synchronology?

David: Why, why didn't Jesus just come once?

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like-

David: Why didn't He just come and said, "I'm the king now."

Seth: Why didn't He just-

David: "Here we go"

Seth: ... destroy ... Why didn't when Nebuchadnezzar humble himself-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... that was the beginning of the kingdom of God and exile ended for Daniel.

David: Right.

Seth: Why did Daniel have to go to Persia and then Israel go through Greece and Antiochus Epiphanes and then Rome-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and then Nero? Why?

David: Yeah. I mean, I think-

Seth: Why space between-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... why gaps?

David: I think God gives us two really clear answers. I think one is the story He's telling, the long form of the story He's telling is a better story. It gives Him more glory than the short version. I think the other-

Seth: Meaning-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... meaning what? Meaning, like, the more history that plays out, the more that we see He's in control of history?

David: Maybe not exact- maybe a little bit of that, but that the glory of God that He wants all humanity to see in their lived experience takes longer to tell-

Seth: Like-

David: ... because He's too big.

Seth: If the, the universal sovereignty of the metal man takes longer than the year 2080 to tell-

David: Yes

Seth: ... is that kind of like what you're saying?

David: Exactly, yes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And it's only when we look back at however long this scroll is [laughs] that God is telling that we will be able to see the picture of His sovereignty that He wants us to see.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That is part of it. I think the other part of it is, and we've talked about this before, we love this idea, is that His patience is kindness.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: That, well, why didn't God just bring the kingdom there after Nebuchadnezzar humbled himself? Because He wanted David Bowden, me, to be in the kingdom- [laughs]

Seth: Yeah

David: ... f- through 2,500 whatever years later.

Seth: Yeah.

David: He wanted you in the kingdom, Seth, [laughs] like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... because He wanted you, listener, in, in His kingdom. He wanted to save you.

Seth: If Jesus' kingdom would've come the moment He died-

David: I wouldn't be a part of it

Seth: ... so the two answers are it's worth enduring a history of violence because we'll see God as a truer and better sovereign-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... in that time period.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's a hard pill to swallow.

David: It's a hard pill to swallow.

Seth: But I also, like, if Daniel was encouraged by it, I think I need to try to be as well.

David: Right.

Seth: But the other is, like, in that time period where God is the metal man that rules over all nations and spiritual powers-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and it, the more time that goes on, the more time He has to prove that reality-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... is that while He's doing so, it's not like other emperors who crush and kill people.

David: Right.

Seth: It's to show mercy to more and more people.

David: More and more people are being brought into the eternal life that God is offering the longer history goes on.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: Like, it seems so counterintuitive, but the longer Vladimir Putin is in power, the more people are going to spend with Jesus forever.

Seth: Hmm.

David: Like, that's-

Seth: Right

David: ... crazy.

Seth: Right. God could just wipe off ... W- God could just come now.

David: Yep.

Seth: But heaven would be less full.

David: Ugh. Yeah. Totally. Okay. That's good.

Seth: Th- that's the Book of Daniel. [laughs]

David: That's the Book of Daniel.

Seth: The Book of Daniel. [laughs]

David: Question mark. Let's seal it up until the end.

Seth: Let's seal it up-

David: We're just gonna-

Seth: ... until the end

David: ... this is the podcast until the end. There's, we're gonna put a seal on this podcast. Um, it's been a journey. Uh, man, I just wanna say thank you to Seth to- in front of everybody.

Seth: [laughs]

David: He's poured himself into this book, and you guys have probably heard it as you've walked through this with us how much work he's had to do to walk-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... us through this. So thank you, man.

Seth: Yeah.

David: I've learned so much from you. I'm sure everybody else has, too. I've just been so edified by this. I know you have, too, so, um, so thankful to have gotten to go through this with you. Thanks for all your h- hard, hard work and prayer that you've put into this. It's been really special.

Seth: Thanks, Sam.

David: Man, thank you all for listening.

Seth: Thank you so much. The Book of Daniel has ended.

David: [laughs]

Seth: Uh, we don't know what's next.

David: No.

Seth: Uh-

David: We're gonna go think about that

Seth: ... we are gonna go think about that. I th- it ... Potentially some epistles.

David: Ooh, that sounds fun.

Seth: Uh, potentially.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Perhaps Philemon.

David: Ooh, that also sounds fun.

Seth: We don't know.

David: And short.

Seth: Fun and short. [laughs]

David: [laughs]

Seth: The opposite-

David: Of Daniel

Seth: ... of Daniel. [laughs]

David: No, it's been fun. Daniel's been fun.

Seth: [laughs]

David: So yeah, thank you guys so much for listening, uh, to the Book of Daniel with us, and we will see you in time, times, and half a time. [laughs]

Outro: [outro music] Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spokengospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. See you next week. [outro music]

Related Resources

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The Sealed Scroll and the God Who Knows History Before It Happens

Show Notes

A Prophecy Unlike Any Other

Israel at the Center of World History

The Contemptible Ruler and the Abomination

The Mountain Range of Prophecy

The Scroll Sealed Until Jesus Opens It

Living Between the Times

Related Resources

Introduction to Daniel

View our devotional on Daniel 1

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Daniel Introduction podcast

Listen to the Daniel 1: A Test of Allegiance podcast

Listen to the Daniel 2: A Statue of Four Kingdoms podcast

Listen to the Daniel 3: A Raging Furnace podcast

Listen to the Daniel 4: Nebuchadnezzar Goes Insane podcast

Listen to the Daniel 5: The Writing on the Wall podcast

Listen to the Daniel 6: The Lion's Den podcast

Listen to the Daniel 7: A Cloud-Riding Son of Man podcast

Listen to the Daniel 8: Rams, Goats, and Abominations podcast

Listen to the Daniel 9: 70 Weeks and a Prayer for Mercy podcast

Listen to the Daniel 10: A Shining Metal Man and the Prince of Persia podcast

Listen to the Daniel 11-12: Not a When, But a Who podcast

Listen to the Daniel Sermon: Only God is in Control podcast