David: [electronic music] Will you follow the will of God, the will of the Father? And Jesus passes the test. He lays down his life. He proves whose God is really in control. The gods of this world claim that they hold all the cards, that death is in their hand, and they wield it against whomever they will. But Jesus and Daniel prove that true life and true ruling happens whenever we obey God's commands, despite the fact that it looks like they'll end in our death.
Intro: [electronic music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible was about Him. So each week, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and His good news. Let's jump in.
David: [electronic music] Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are in Daniel chapter one today.
Seth: That's right.
David: So Seth, how you feeling?
Seth: I'm feeling really excited.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's a lot that happened. I'm excited for the book of Daniel.
David: In general. We, we, we got to-
Seth: In general
David: ... unpack a lot of that in the introduction episode.
Seth: Yeah, and I love the opening of the book of Daniel.
David: You do?
Seth: Yeah, I really-
David: Oh, it's so sad, though.
Seth: Ye- yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Um, it is sad. I like sad. [laughs]
David: I like sad. I'm a very melancholy person.
Seth: [laughs]
David: So whenever a book starts off and people are being carted away from their homes, and there's-
Seth: I'm like-
David: You're like, "Great"
Seth: ... it's a good day for Seth today. [laughs]
David: [laughs] It's so, so terrible.
Seth: Well, it's just a fu- it, the, the story of the 10-day test and the food-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and them gaining weight on a diet of vegetables.
David: That is cool.
Seth: And also all the parallels with the Joseph narrative, all the things that we've discovered with the temple, I'm just excited-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for everything that's on the line in Daniel 1.
David: I, okay. I'll, I'll let you off the hook for that. I'm excited, too. So Daniel chapter 1, right? It starts off, and it sets up what's on the line-
Seth: Yep
David: ... in the book of Daniel. The people of Israel have been carted away from their homeland, and the temple has been robbed. Why is that so significant?
Seth: So yeah, you can read about it in 2 Kings 24.
David: Okay.
Seth: The King Jehoiakim is carted off away into exile, um, and then this is what it says in verse two. "And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into Nebuchadnezzar's hand, and some of the vessels of the house of God, and he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god."
David: This is such a loaded verse.
Seth: So, so many things are happening right here. The first thing you see is the destruction of the people and nation of God. That's a big deal.
David: Yes, and it's ratcheted up by the very first words of verse two.
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And the Lord-
Seth: "The Lord gave."
David: It's like, ho- wait, hold on. So it's not, right from the start-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... it's not, "And so God's people were overpowered," you know? Or-
Seth: Yep
David: ... a- and so Jehoiakim was outwitted by-
Seth: By
David: ... military strategy. No.
Seth: Yep.
David: This is a spiritual exile.
Seth: Yeah, and 2 Kings 24 tells us that. It says in 2 Kings 24:4, "Surely all these things happened to Judah according to the Lord's command-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh in all that he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. He had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the Lord was not willing to forgive."
David: Right. So this exile and destruction of the temple is a result of Israel's sin and a direct act of God himself.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, I, I, I think of the prophet Ezekiel, and Ezekiel kind of has this vision of God's chariot riding out to war.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then-
Seth: Is that the one with all the eyes and the wheels?
David: All the eyes and everything, and then it's like, but the weird thing is, it's riding toward the temple.
Seth: Oh.
David: God is riding out to war against his own house.
Seth: Mm.
David: And it's terrifying.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, and then here in Daniel, it's happened, and the people are being carted off.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay. So like,
Seth: And it's a big deal because the nation of Israel, the kingdom of God at that stage of God's plan for remi- h- uh, redemptive history was, that's how God was gonna rule the world. He was gonna rule-
David: Right
Seth: ... from Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: He was gonna rule from his temple. He was gonna usher in a reign of peace and justice for all people from Jerusalem. So for Jerusalem to be burned-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then the artifacts of God's temple to be stashed in the temple of another god-
David: Right
Seth: ... this means that the era of God's people has ended.
David: Yes.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that, that's-
David: And, and their access to God is completely cut off.
Seth: Access to God, the ability for God's kingdom to move forward, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God's plans have stopped-
David: Yep
Seth: ... when Nebuchadnezzar took over, or so it seems.
David: Right, yeah.
Seth: Or so it seems.
David: But it's being done at God's hand.
Seth: Right.
David: That's the weird thing. And so like, that should mean-
Seth: So if God is controlling of the fact that his own kingdom and his own temple is destroyed-
David: His plans can't-
Seth: ... have, is it really destroyed?
David: ... be stopped because he's the one doing it. It is his plan.
Seth: And this, us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... us sarcastically questioning back and forth, that's the tension.
David: That's the tension.
Seth: That's the tension of Je- book of Daniel.
David: Yes. And so what, so that's on the line.
Seth: Mm.
David: What else is on the line here is the vessels are being carried away.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, the, the temple is being gutted.
Seth: Yep.
David: And this is so significant because I- Israel's worship of God-Um, has now been halted
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that they are no longer able to make their sacrifices, their offerings, their incense. How will their sins be atoned for?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, how will they commune with God? How will they be in His presence?
Seth: Yeah.
David: How will God be among them?
Seth: Not only is the, yeah, not only is the temple burned-
David: Right
Seth: ... everything inside of it is now booty.
David: Right
Seth: It's just warts.
David: And it's not, and it, yeah, and it's now in the house of a false god in Babylon
Seth: Yeah. But there's also, in the same way if, well, if God controls the exile, maybe He can bring them out of exile. There's also a little bit of weird hope here, too. There's another story in the Bible where the vessels of God's house are carted off to another nation. It's in the Book of Samuel-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when the Ark of the Covenant is stolen by the Philistines and goes through these five different cities, and as it's in those five different cities, plagues of rats and tumors comes on each city until they get rid of it and can go back to Israel. So it's also maybe a hint that, well, they've stolen God's things, maybe the same thing will happen again.
David: Oh, maybe, maybe the vessels that they stole from the temple will end up being a judgment against them?
Seth: Yes.
David: And that,
Seth: That actually happens-
David: That happens
Seth: ... in Daniel chapter 5.
David: Oh, that's, that's so interesting because Belshazzar actually takes the vessels out of the treasury so he can- Drink from them? Drink from them
Seth:... drinking to his own power and celebrating his own gods. And it's in that moment, when that type of blasphemy finally comes, that God strips the kingdom from.
David: And, yeah, and Babylon is given over to the Medes and the Persians.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: It's kind of a, the shotgun over the mantelpiece. It's gonna get fired-
David: Ah
Seth: ... later on.
David: So the vessel being taken out is like a, just wait to see what happens with this. It's like the Ark of the Covenant again.
Seth: It's, it's like the Ark of the Covenant.
David: Mm.
Seth: But to your point, too, it's also representative of proper worship of God that's been halted and stopped.
David: Right
Seth: And the hopelessness of, and, and the wondering, will, will we ever get back to where we were supposed to? Will God ever reign from Jerusalem again?
David: Right. And it's like, it's really hard, I think, for us today, for several reasons, to know why that's so significant. I don't even know if I'm going to be able to articulate it well enough, but I'll try. Like, think about, uh, uh, I, I think it's because, one, for one, we don't see worship as tied to place. We don't see God's presence as tied to place, right? God's presence is everywhere. You can worship Him-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... everywhere. You can pray to Him anywhere. You can sing songs to Him anywhere, and it's equally good no matter where you do it from.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And that's true. That's absolutely true.
Seth: It was true for Israel, too.
David: Right. But, but, like, it- Kind of
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not kind of. I would actually, I would actually take a little bit of issue with that.
Seth: Well, God says it. He says, "I don't dwell in temples made by man." He said that to Solomon while he-
David: He does-
Seth: ... built the temple
David: ... but then He chooses to as a condescension.
Seth: Yes.
David: And He also says, "Do not make sacrifices to me anywhere except this one place."
Seth: That's right.
David: And He says, "If you do it, if you try to make a sacrifice outside somewhere else, I'm gonna kill you."
Seth: I mean, we have that same sense of rootedness and placedness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in Christianity.
David: Mm.
Seth: The place of sacrifice is Jesus Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: There's a s- there's a specificity.
David: Salvation is found in no one else.
Seth: Right, like, there is a specificity, a rootedness to our worship, but also an acknowledgement of, like, God is everywhere-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but He is especially in the image of Jesus Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: We have that same... We, there's a sp- a spiritual and physical embodied reality for us as Christians that was national and, um, religious for, for, for-
David: It was, yeah-
Seth: ... the Jews
David: ... it was in, it was in a building.
Seth: Right. So I mean, then that's interesting.
David: That's really helpful.
Seth: In the same way that we're like, there's only salvation in Jesus-
David: Mm-hmm. There's only-
Seth: ... even though God-
David: ... salvation in the temple
Seth: ... there's only salvation in the temple.
David: Yeah, Go- yeah, Daniel can pray to God in Babylon, but salvation is found in nowhere else but the temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So if the temple's gone, what's gonna happen? Like, how are we and God gonna be okay? Um, and-
Seth: Can I up the ante a little bit on that, too?
David: Oh, please, yes.
Seth: So, like, yeah, that's all in the line, and where is all God's temple things?
David: In Babylon's courts.
Seth: The, in the land of Shinar.
David: Ah, yes.
Seth: If you remember from Genesis 11, the land of Shinar was where the Tower of Babel was built.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Babel, there is the word Babylon. It's the same word all throughout scripture.
David: Right.
Seth: It's just translated Babel in that one place. Babylon, there, all the articles of God are in the place that God cursed.
David: Mm.
Seth: And Babylon has been rebuilt. Like, maybe this is the final word of where God's people should live.
David: Mm.
Seth: In the Bible story, Babylon was built, it was torn down, and God made His own people in Abraham.
David: Right.
Seth: God's people have had a chance to have a kingdom. It's fallen, and it's all been absorbed back into Babel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Babylon has retaken over the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Will God curse it again?
David: Right.
Seth: And the implic- it's, goes back and forth.
David: It does.
Seth: Maybe this is the final word of the empire of Babylon, or will-
David: Maybe this is the final word against the people of God.
Seth: Yeah, or will God do what he did to Babylon again?
David: Right.
Seth: Was what happened to Babel about to re- repeat it in Babylon?
David: Yes.
Seth: So-
David: And we'll find out. That is what happens.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: And it's like, so what's gonna happen? Like, what hope is there when the place of God's worship and salvation is torn down and the vessels are carted off, the priests are nowhere to be found, the people who mediate between God and man, what hope is there? Who can stand in the gap between the people of God and a broken temple? They need a new and a different kind of mediator, a priest to go between them, and that is the next clue we get when we're introduced to Daniel and his friends.
Seth: Yeah. The king commanded Ashpenaz, his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family and of nobility. So this is part of the, m- the Babylonian colonization method. They would skim off the top of the, uh, the nations they conquered, the best and the brightest students-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and then indoctrinate them into the, to the culture of Babylon.
David: Yeah, they put them in a three-year crash course.
Seth: Yes, on how to be good Babylonians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to be the best representatives to their people on Babylonian values.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So the idea here is like, oh, no, you can trust, these were your kings. These were your leaders previously.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And they agree with Babylon.
David: We've brainwashed them now. [laughs]
Seth: And they agree with us, so follow the, your old leaders, your old politicians.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what's interesting, so that's like-
David: Yeah, that's their strategy
Seth: ... culturally fascinating.
David: Yeah
Seth: But then verse four, "They are youths without blemish-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding, learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace and to teach them literature in the language of the Chaldeans."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So on one level, it just sounds like, okay, these are the cream of the crop.
David: Right.
Seth: This is the best of the best of Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and we're gonna brainwash them so that they can communicate to our other conquered Israel, Israelites that we are really in control and they shouldn't try to revolt. Which by the way, is what Jehoiakim tried to do.
David: Oh, really?
Seth: When Nebuchadnezzar conquers Jehoiakim, which is what we're told-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... verse one, he then tries to lead a revolt.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: So by, by taking away all the politicians and brainwashing them, you're undermining-
David: The ability to revolt
Seth: ... yes, or the will of the people to revolt.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's interesting.
Seth: But the most in- So that, that's interesting-
David: Yep
Seth: ... for the, just as a demonstration of the power of Babylon.
David: Totally.
Seth: Wouldn't you wanna submit under these circumstances?
David: Wouldn't you? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah. To submit under these circumstances? Yeah.
Seth: Uh, but what's interesting is that phrase, the, um-
David: The youths
Seth: ... youths without blemish.
David: Yeah, the blemish thing. So that's the Hebrew word meyum, which is a, a kind of a rare word in the Hebrew Bible. And as you look at it, uh, throughout the Hebrew scriptures, uh, with a few exceptions, it is always tied to the, um, qualifications of the priests. And-
Seth: That the priests need to be without blemish?
David: That's right. The priests had to be without blemish. So Leviticus 21, uh, and 22 outline this for the first time.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, in 22, God is speaking to Moses and tells Aaron, the, the first chief priest, and says this. He says, "None of your offspring, your young people, throughout their generations, who has a blemish," same word, "may approach to offer the bread of his God."
Seth: Interesting.
David: And then he goes on to, to find what kind of blemishes, what qualifies as a blemish, so as only those without blemish can come near. Same thing is said of the type of sacrifices that could come to God, only a lamb without blemish, right?
Seth: Interesting.
David: And so you have this priestly qualification being given to this group of people of which Daniel is going to be a subset.
Seth: It's interesting. Uh, what it keeps making me think is it keeps, like we say, like, these things could mean two things. The fact that God's in control could mean that this is the end of Israel, or it could mean that he could bring them out.
David: Right.
Seth: The fact that's in Shinar could be that Babylon has finally won, or the Babylon won't fall like it did before.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: It could be that the vessel had been stolen and absorbed by another god, proving his power, or it could be the shotgun on the mantelpiece proving that it's gonna die. And now we have sacrificial priests-
David: Right
Seth: ... and then they're in the indoctrination camp-
David: That's right
Seth: ... of the king of Babylon, and he goes on in verse five, "The king assigned them food that the king ate," which is, this is an invitation to his table.
David: Really important, yeah.
Seth: And then if they did well, they would stand before the king, and then these priests of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are given Babylonian names.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I've heard this before, I'd have to go back and check, but the, the, they might all be riffs on Babylonian gods' names.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So, which is interesting, so you have potential-
David: The, mm-hmm
Seth: ... priests of God named after the gods of Babylon.
David: That's right.
Seth: So have the people of God been absorbed by the gods of Babylon?
David: The answer comes in the test.
Seth: In the test. [laughs]
David: In the test, and it's really important how it starts. So verse eight of chapter one says, "But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the king's food." So another big part-
Seth: Well-
David: ... of Leviticus 21 and 22, along with the blemishes, is that a priest cannot be defiled e- especially by food or by sex or by touching a dead body, anything like that.
Seth: This is more like sacramental-
David: That's right
Seth: ... like-
David: Sacramental language.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And a- again, we're seeing that, that Daniel is a priest without blemish, and well, how's it gonna go? You know, is he-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... is he gonna be the brainwashed priest of the Babylonian gods, or is he gonna stay true to Yahweh? Well, he's gonna resolve here not to defile himself with the king's food. He is choosing to obey the Torah that sat inside the, the temple, even whenever it's destroyed, and he's going to remain ceremonially clean so that he can continue the priestly office that he's being set up to fulfill.
Seth: That's interesting. He never says that he, Daniel never says that he knows that he's a priest-
David: Nope
Seth: ... or that he functions as a priest.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But clearly the author of Daniel-
David: Yes
Seth: ... was pulling on some of these, like, priestly languages and, like... And I mean, 'cause that's on the line, right? We said it. It's like-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... the temple's on the line, the leadership of Israel is on the line. 'Cause the priests weren't just religious figures like pastors are today.
David: Right.
Seth: They were part of the leading class of people. The king would have a pre- a high priest that he consulted with about the law-
David: Totally
Seth: ... of the land.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what you would be thinking about if you were, if you were reading this. Like, if I said, uh, a, a s- a school bus full of kids was driving down the highway, and it was stopped by robbers, and the robbers came in, and they took out all the seats, uh, of the school bus, and they ripped off the stop sign off the side of the school bus, and they carted it off to their, their place, um, you'd be like, "Well, but what happened to the, the teacher and the school bus driver and- Yeah
David: ... the kids?" You'd be asking the question of, like, hold on, the temple's not just a place with stuff in it.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It's also a place with people in it.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And so as soon as the temple's destroyed, you're like, "Well, what happened to the priests?"
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: It's like, oh, well, there's a, people without blemish who are not defiling themselves. Ding, ding, ding. Like-
Seth: Yeah, the author's like, "Don't worry. The, the, we can still worship God. God's still in control."
David: Right.
Seth: "He's still above the gods of Babylon. Like s- like nothing's out of God's control-"
David: Right
Seth: "... yet." Uh-
David: So yeah, the author of Daniel is setting Daniel up as a symbolic priest-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in, in this, in this moment.
Seth: Interesting.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Okay. And then he asked one of the chief eunuchs to allow him not to defile himself. Uh, and God gave Daniel favor and compassion in the sight of the chief of the eunuchs. But the chief of the eunuchs was afraid to do this because basically the king could have his head, and if Daniel was seen to be of lesser health than the other men, uh-It would be his head for it.
David: That's right.
Seth: So which is also a interesting, like, bit of dramatic tension to add here. You have this king who's being really, really generous. You eat at the king's table-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... drink his food, drink his wine. Refuse, you die. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Like, like, yeah, right.
Seth: And if Daniel is being set up as a type of representative of God's religion, the, the Yah- the religion of Yahweh, Nebuchadnezzar is this other pole in that, right?
David: Yes. Yes.
Seth: He's the leader of a, a new religion, so and that one holds the cards of death. Can the god that's already been conquered, can it... the priest of the god that's already, whose temple's already been destroyed, survive in the-
David: Right
Seth: ... temple of this new god-
David: Right
Seth: ... with this new food and these new religious practices?
David: It's not just a test of Daniel's faith, it's a test of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: W- like, is God still going to win-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when his temple's been destroyed? I also was thinking-
Seth: Is God, God or is Nebuchadnezzar God?
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right. That's the test. And I, I was also thinking like, oh, like, this plays in, uh, with the whole, like, without blemish thing. Because-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the problem that the chief of the eunuchs bring, brings up is, "Hey, man, if you don't eat the food and drink the wine, you're gonna be gaunt and skinny-
Seth: Right
David: ... and pale."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "You're gonna be blemished."
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah.
David: And the king doesn't want you working in his temple if you're blemished. He wants you looking fat and healthy because it's a representative of who he is. I am rich and generous and powerful, and so my priests are fat and well fed and rosy cheeked.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he's like, "You can't be who he wants you to be if you show up looking bad."
Seth: Mm.
David: And he's like, "No, no, no, I guarantee you, if I stick to the laws of my God, I will look like a true priest."
Seth: It's interesting. The way that I wrote this in the d- the devotional, I think this is right. Like, Daniel has a choice in this moment. Will he trust the God that sent him into exile?
David: Mm.
Seth: Or will he be wooed by the power and promises of Nebuchadnezzar? And Daniel must decide if God is in charge of his suffering, or if Nebuchadnezzar is in charge of his promotion.
David: Oof.
Seth: Like, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... do you know what I see? Like, there's like a real... God seems to only be on the powerless side of things.
David: Mm.
Seth: Nebuchadnezzar seems to be on the up.
David: He has all the cards.
Seth: And has all the cards.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Daniel's still choosing to align himself with the God of exile-
David: Mm
Seth: ... before the, the, the God of the empire. Interesting. So the test.
David: The test.
Seth: He sets up a test.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So basically he said, "Okay, I know you can't just... I know what the situation you're in." And he says, "Just test us for 10 days, and after 10 days, we're not... We don't look as good as the king's other men, we will, we'll go back."
David: We'll switch.
Seth: "We'll switch."
David: So let's, let's, let's set this up here. Daniel is not saying, um, "Hey, we're all a little overweight, and so we're gonna do the Daniel diet and lose some weight." That's, the opposite is happening.
Seth: Right.
David: 'Cause I think when we think about the Daniel diet [laughs] here-
Seth: Yeah. It's like, I think about my mom went on the Daniel diet [laughs] at some point.
David: Yeah. [laughs] It's like, it's like, "Oh, I do the Daniel diet of vegetables and water, and I... to lose weight." It's like no... Oh, oh, sure.
Seth: Sure.
David: Go eat vegetables, drink water, lose weight. That, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
Seth: But-
David: But the point of what's happening here is Daniel said that there's going to be a miracle that happens, that he's going to drink water and eat broccoli and get fat. While other people are eating steak and drinking wine, he's going to get fatter than them by water and broccoli.
Seth: Yeah. I think, yeah.
David: Which would require... And in, and, and to do that in 10 days.
Seth: At the end of the 10 days-
David: Would be a miracle
Seth: ... it was seen that they were better in appearance and fatter than flesh, than all the youth-
David: Fatter of flesh. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] ... that ate the king's food. It's crazy. Like, yeah, I was like, I kinda thought it was a pretty funny irony for my mom, who, like, went on the Daniel diet to lose weight. I was like, "Did you read the end of that story?"
David: Yeah. Be careful.
Seth: Because- [laughs]
David: If God honors this diet-
Seth: If God honors this diet-
David: ... you're gonna be a fat. [laughs]
Seth: You're gonna gain weight after miserably eating vegetables for only 10 days.
David: It's so funny.
Seth: For all or however long she'd done it for.
David: Yeah. And so what, and so it happens, and what God is saying there is he's, is he's proving that he is the God in control.
Seth: Right. And what's interesting is then it also makes you think that the food being offered by Nebuchadnezzar isn't just food. It's, it's sacred.
David: Oh, he might be offering them sacred priestly temple food.
Seth: Or it's-
David: Is that what you're saying?
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It could be offered in favor of his gods, or to eat his food is a symbol of bowing to him.
David: Totally.
Seth: Right.
David: I mean, it's food... It could... It's very likely that it would be food sacrificed to idols, and the, the people of Babylon were bringing the f- the animals into the king's court. They were killing it to the name of the king's god-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and then the indoctrination of the, of, of whom Daniel was, was one, were made to eat it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it was like, "Oh, great. In eating this food, you're accepting-
Seth: Yep
David: ... the reign of the king's gods."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he's like, "I will not defile myself with that kind of food."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God honors it. [instrumental music plays]
Seth: Okay. So what's on the line in all this is who's really in charge. Is God in charge?
David: Mm.
Seth: Or is Nebuchadnezzar in charge? And is Daniel willing to trust a God who sends him into exile?
David: Mm.
Seth: Or will he trust the king who has all the trappings of the empire?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Daniel chooses to trust the God who sent him into exile. This is a really significant moment, just like for believers, for Christians-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the biblical narrative. Um, what a lot of scholars also point out that Daniel is not the first person to have this narrative arc.
David: Mm.
Seth: Joseph has the same narrative arc. He, by his brothers, is thrown into a pit. He's stolen. We're told he's stolen from the land of the Hebrews, just like Daniel is stolen-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... from the land of the Hebrews.
David: And we find out at the end of Genesis that it was God who did that.
Seth: That was God who did that.
David: Just like the beginning of Daniel, right? Yep.
Seth: Yeah. And the, and the very end of Genesis interprets that saying, "What you intended for evil-
David: God intended for good
Seth: ... God intended for good."
David: Okay.
Seth: You also have a moment where we haven't got to the interpretation of the dream yet, but he'll interpret dreams just like Daniel does.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And there's also, before he ever interprets a dream, just like before Daniel ever interprets a dream, there's a test with Potiphar's wife.
David: Right.
Seth: He's invited to sleep with the ruler of the home-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of the ruler of the h- home's wife, and he chooses to remain faithful to God rather than avail themselves of the bounty of the empire.
David: Mm.
Seth: And it's-In that process, he's actually gone, goes further down into exile. So there's a risk. Like, see, this is a... If you're paying-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... attention to the biblical story, we don't know if this test will work out in Daniel's favor.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: Daniel doesn't know if this will work out in his favor.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It also mirrors what happens in the fiery furnace. They say it, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, before they go in the fire, they say, "We don't know. Like, God, we believe God will rescue us, but if he doesn't-
David: Mm
Seth: ... there's a... We don't know how this, this story-
David: Right
Seth: ... story's gonna end here."
David: Right.
Seth: But there's also a hope in the Joseph story that he could be raised up.
David: Right.
Seth: Just like, and he became the vizier of Egypt.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is the same thing on the line here? And what's interesting, I think, is that that same invitation to accept the god of exile is the same invitation that Jesus offers us.
David: Mm.
Seth: He says, "If you wanna follow me, pick up your cross."
David: Right.
Seth: You must die if you wanna live. When Christians don't choose God, Jesus, because he offers a better life in Babylon-
David: Mm
Seth: ... they must trust the god of exile. All the information we have about God, Daniel's trust in God is one based off of-
David: He's sent him into exile [laughs]
Seth: ... sending him into exile.
David: [laughs]
Seth: There's hope that maybe in the future he could restore.
David: Right.
Seth: But the trust that Daniel is giving God is one like, "I can trust you with death and exile-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and being potentially put into the pit, and I would rather do that than des- enjoy the food of Babylon."
David: That's what Jesus is calling us to, is like, "It's better for you to obey me, even whenever it means eating vegetables" [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "Uh, uh, 'cause you'll have life."
Seth: Even if it means joining me in my death.
David: Right.
Seth: So that you might join me in my resurrection.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, because ultimately, let's, let's just say it, like, this is a picture of Jesus. Jesus endured the ultimate test.
Seth: Like Daniel and Joseph, he was sent into exile-
David: That's right
Seth: ... among the Romans.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and, and he, in the Garden of Gethsemane [laughs] was faced with a choice.
Seth: Well, in, it, before that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in the wilderness.
David: Yes. Oh, yes, the, yeah, the temptations.
Seth: Satan-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... Temptation offers him food.
David: Right.
Seth: Just like he's, Daniel's offered food here.
David: Yep.
Seth: He has a choice. Do you wanna rule the world-
David: Mm
Seth: ... with me, the king of the world?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So bow.
David: Right. So he's offered the same choice. Daniel knows-
Seth: It's the same choice
David: ... it's better to starve in the desert, uh, and be with God than to feast at the king's table a- and rule the world with Satan.
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then right after that story, in the, in all the gospel accounts, Jesus is lifted up. The, he's baptized, the clouds open up, God speaks from heaven.
David: Right, right before, right before this story.
Seth: Uh-
David: Right before the temptations.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes.
David: Yes, right.
Seth: Uh, and he's ascended. He's the, he's the chosen one of God.
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: And so here we're g- we're wondering, like, will this re- result in the same thing? Daniel's gonna be risen up above all the magicians here in a second.
David: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Seth: Just like Jesus is risen up above all his enemies, yeah.
David: Yeah, that's interesting. Um, and so, but yeah, but, but ultimately, though, going back to the Garden of Gethsemane too, is like-
Seth: Yes, sorry
David: ... there's that test of, like, will you follow the will of God, the will of the Father, Jesus?
Seth: Mm.
David: Not my will, but your will be done. Um, you know? I- i- like, let this cup pass moment, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And Jesus passes the test. He lays down his life because he trusts that death with God's plan is better than life without it, and what happens? He's raised up.
Seth: That's right.
David: Just like Joseph was, just like Daniel will be. Um, and he's proven, he proves whose God is really in control. The gods of this world claim that they hold all the cards, that death is in their hand, and they wield it against whomever they will. But Jesus and Daniel and Joseph again and again and again prove that true life and true ruling happens whenever we obey God's commands despite the fact that it looks like they'll end in our death.
Seth: Man, yes.
David: Ugh.
Seth: Yeah, it's almost as if, like, the cry of those faithful to the Lord, the cry of those faithful to Jesus always has to be despite what it looks like. I know God is in control.
David: Right.
Seth: And that's what it means to have faith in Jesus.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's what it means to be saved. That's what it means to invite Jesus into your heart.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Is to look at the empire of the world, look at all that it offers you, know that it could kill you if you refuse, and then choose to accept the, the, the calling of the God who sends you into exile.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The calling of the God who invites you to die, the calling of the God who says, "I, you will be persecuted for my name's sake," the calling of the God who says, "Count the cost-
David: Right
Seth: ... before you accept me." Because-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... right? Like-
David: Oh, man. I mean, I'm just, I'm just thinking about a l- I mean, I just wanna say it again, and then I wanna make another point 'cause it's like it is amazing to think about the, the cross as a test.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like Jesus knew that God's power was greater-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... than the power of the grave-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and the promise of the empires of this world, and so he laid down his life. He put it all on the line, right? He ate the broccoli and drank the water [laughs].
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And God honored him by raising him up above every name and putting him on a throne.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And I'm just like, man, this happens all the time. L- like, in, in our lives. We're like, um, man, I, I notice something, um, sinful and wrong at, at my job. Uh, my boss or my direct report was doing something just wrong, and I know if I bring it up, I'm gonna get fired, and it's like, well, I better just go ahead and eat the red meat and drink the wine and tip my hat to the king of Babylon because I, I gotta keep myself safe.
Seth: Right.
David: I have to look out for myself, and if I obey God here, I'm gonna lose everything.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, no.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God, Jesus proved, Daniel proved, Joseph proved that if you obey God's commands and you, you eat the broccoli and drink the water-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... you lay down your life-
Seth: Right
David: ... he will raise you up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Despite what it looks like, he will raise you up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like we're presented with this test all the time.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause the hope of resurrection isn't just an eternal hope.
David: No.
Seth: Which it, which it, it is.
David: It is.
Seth: And it's like why is it worth dying first? Because resurrection's on the other side.
David: That's right.
Seth: Obviously, but, like, the Book of Daniel has all these mini resurrections.
David: Yes.
Seth: These moments when the exiled Jew becomes, I mean, that's what I w- you know, I'll go ahead and read it in a second, but, like, the exiled Jew becomes-The Prime Minister of Babylon-
David: Right
Seth: ... above all, everybody.
David: Right. And, and whether or not it results in a physical promotion to a higher job, uh, doesn't matter. 'Cause what matters is, if you try to save your life, you're gonna lose it, but if you lose your life for me, you're gonna save it. It's like y- you are going to put a curse on yourself by letting your boss-
Seth: Mm
David: ... by sweeping the thing your boss did under the rug.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, and it's gonna kill you a little bit. It's gonna be death to you. You're gonna lose life in that. But if you stand up for what God has for you in that moment, He's gonna give you life that you didn't even know was possible because you laid down your life for Him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, the, our lives can be filled with constant little resurrections whenever we eat the broccoli and drink the water.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's cool. Uh-
David: It just shows that God's just more powerful.
Seth: Right.
David: I just think that's, that's the main thing to take away from this, is that-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, God's more powerful than you think, even whenever you're exiled, even when the temple's destroyed, even when it looks like God couldn't reach you, He's more powerful than your present circumstance.
Seth: And here's what that looked like for Daniel-
David: Okay
Seth: ... in Babylon. And for these four youths, God gave them, in response-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to their eating the broccoli-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... learning and skill in all literature and wisdom. So they excel at the king's indoctrination. God gives them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... special skill to understand Babylonian culture all the way down.
David: Right.
Seth: They were the best indoctrinees, not because they were indoctrinated-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... but because God gave the ability to see through Babylon clearly. And then Daniel had understanding, we're told, also in visions and dreams. This sets up-
David: Basically the, the rest [laughs]
Seth: ... the whole book
David: [laughs] Yeah
Seth: ... of the Book of Daniel. You need to know that. He has a special skill for vision and dream, like Joseph sta- did-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... be- in-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the Joseph narratives. And at the end of the time, um, end of the three years when the king had commanded that they should be brought in, um, the king spoke with them, and he found that Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, interesting that it's their Hebrew names here-
David: Not Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego
Seth: ... right, which is what you would expect when you're in the king's court.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's a proof that God is elevating them and-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... protecting them as the people of God rather than acolytes of Babylon.
David: Their Jewishness is not getting crushed under the indoctrination of their Babylonian-ish-
Seth: Yes
David: ... ishness. [laughs]
Seth: "And in every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king inquired of them, he found them 10 times better than all the magicians."
David: They, they-
Seth: One time for every 10-day, one-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... day they ate broccoli.
David: Oh, that's good. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: That's really interesting. They graduated from Babylonian school summa cum laude.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Uh, uh, than all the other magicians and enchanters in the kingdom, and Daniel was there until the first year of King Cyrus.
David: Mm.
Seth: So that kinda gives us an inclusio of how long Daniel lasts. Which, just think about this. So what is Daniel's reward for passing the test? He's given knowledge of all the literature and language of Babylon.
David: Right.
Seth: He's found better than all the magicians and enchanters.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he lasts through three successive empires within Babylon. Just imagine-
David: Whoa. Yeah
Seth: ... being the prime advisor to three different administrations over the course of 70 years in exile. That's unheard of.
David: Right.
Seth: Nobody, nobody is on Obama's cabinet, Trump's cabinet, and Biden's cabinet.
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: Like that doesn't, that doesn't-
David: That doesn't happen
Seth: ... that doesn't happen, much less if China came in, and then Russia came in-
David: Oh, and you're on, their, you're, you're-
Seth: You're on-
David: ... Putin's combi- advisor too
Seth: ... yeah, you're the best advisor to Putin, Xi Jinping-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and Trump. Like, how-
David: That would never happen
Seth: ... how does that happen? It does not happen.
David: You would have to be the wisest...
Seth: Daniel is given a seat next to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... power for his entire life. It's a mini resu- he's ascended-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to a throne.
David: Because he laid his life down.
Seth: Because he laid his life down.
David: Right, which is why when Jesus lays his life down, he is ruler, not over one kingdom-
Seth: Mm
David: ... but of every kingdom, over China, over Russia, over America, over every nation, Jesus reigns over all. Why? Because he laid his life down.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, for all nations.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's interesting.
Seth: There's something about the humility of Daniel here that will be picked up again in chapters-
David: Mm
Seth: ... f- uh, five and, uh, four and fi- or f- four and five-
David: Okay
Seth: ... with Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar.
David: Oh.
Seth: He lays his life down.
David: Yes.
Seth: He humbly submits to the will of the Lord rather than to the king of Babylon. He's elevated to a throne like Nebuchadnezzar is, but Belsh- Shazzar isn't.
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, you have the introduction of wis- like, it's setting, there's kind of, there's a sense in Daniel 1, there's also, like, a table of contents for all the themes that are gonna be set up. We're talking about exile and temple, wisdom, visions, dreams, humility, humbling.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you-
David: A test
Seth: ... a, a test-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that will get picked up later, like-
David: All of these things are, are laid out.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. Man, that's crazy. Oh, vegetables.
Seth: Vegetables.
David: Daniel 1.
Seth: Um, why is it good news that the call of Jesus is a call to death first?
David: Mm.
Seth: 'Cause, like, it could've been that Jesus said, like, and, and, and there's, like, "Come to me, that you might have life and life abundantly."
David: Right.
Seth: That's part of the message of good news, right?
David: Yeah, but what does coming to him look like? [laughs]
Seth: But what does, like, why-
David: It looks like death
Seth: ... why must we pass through death? Why does Israel have to pass through exile?
David: Mm.
Seth: Why does Da- why must Daniel be in Babylon for God to raise him up? Why does Jesus have to die to, so he gets sent to the throne? Why is it good news that we start low before we go high?
David: I have, I have two answers. I'm sure you have more. Uh-
Seth: I don't know if I do, but we'll see. [laughs]
David: My, my, here's my two answers. Uh, uh, uh, like, I'll give them short, and then we can unpack them. First, it's because we must die because of our sin.
Seth: Mm.
David: And that's why Israel's in exile. We said that at the-
Seth: Right
David: ... very beginning of the episode.
Seth: That's right.
David: Why is Israel in exile? Because of their sin.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: So why must our path to Jesus's life start with death? Because of our sin, we must die.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, and then two, it's because we have to kill the pride out of ourselves. [laughs] Like, in order for us to know that God reigns supreme, we first have to kill our own little king. Like, we all are our own little king, you know, that thinks that we're autonomous and that we could build a citadel all the way up to the sky like the Tower of Babel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we think we could do it. We think we could, we could run the, the universe, and that little king has to die in order for the ultimate King to live in us. We have to see that king die. We have to die to that king, die to self. We have to die to our autonomy to submit to His sovereigntySo I mean, I think those are my two, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... gut responses to why death in order to have life.
Seth: Yeah. That's why the necessity of it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, why is that good news?
David: Mm. Yeah.
Seth: Why is it, why is it good news that it's in the context of death and pride and Babylon? That's when we're raised up.
David: Yeah. And I, I think maybe... I think there's good news in both of those.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, on my end, I'm thinking, um, it's good news that the narrative arc starts at the bottom, that life comes after death.
David: Right, that death's not the end is good news.
Seth: Right, because it's like, well, what it proves is that God is powerful in, in the bottom of the barrel.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, the God is the God that can raise the meekest, the lowliest, the most oppressed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: God is the God that works within the belly of the biggest and baddest empires. Why is it good news that death, that God works from the middle of death and exile?
David: Mm.
Seth: Why is it that God uses evil to accomplish His purposes?
David: Mm.
Seth: Is because that proves His greatness.
David: Right.
Seth: That proves He's able to overcome and to offer true life. If the problems were easier, the rescue wouldn't be as-
David: Yeah, if the stakes were lower [laughs]
Seth: If the stakes were lower, the good news wouldn't be as good.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, we've... He's up the an-
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, it must happen from death so that He can actually rescue from all evil-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and all death and all sin. It has to be in the belly of the biggest and baddest beast-
David: Right
Seth: ... in order for us to resurrect-
David: Totally
Seth: ... fully, finally, forever.
David: Right. Yeah, that's really good. I think it's also really good news in those two reasons I brought up, too. Like, it's good news because we have to die anyway.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? For, for several reasons. One, mortally, we have to die.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Death is a part of life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We have to die.
Seth: Our cells stop multiplying.
David: That's right, and that's because, I think, of the, of the fall-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and the curse. Uh, and so, like, death, physical death is a result of a spiritual, um, re- re- uh, revolt.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, we ran from God, and so we die. We ran away from the tree of life, and so we can't live forever, so now we have to die. So it's good news that even though we have to die-
Seth: Mm
David: ... we will live.
Seth: Mm.
David: Uh, and so, uh, and that's, like, from a physical-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... standpoint.
Seth: Our, one of our author- one of the other authors on staff, Christine-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... she pointed out all this Eden imagery-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Babylon story that I was like, "I don't know," but it's, it's coming out to me finally right here.
David: Mm.
Seth: She said basically Nebuchadnezzar is setting up an anti-Eden.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's setting up a new version of Eden where the people must pass a test first, just eat of this food.
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Take of my food at the king's table, and then you will have understanding of all the language and literature of Babylon. But when he refuses to eat the food, he's given the understanding, Daniel's given the understanding that does what? That gives him life in Babylon, raises him to a throne, and allows for the people of God to be at peace in exile.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Thank you, Christine.
David: And like whenever, and yeah, and whenever he refuses the food, we see the r- reverse of the fall.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because the fall came whenever Eve and Adam did eat the food offered-
Seth: Right
David: ... by the king of Babylon, the serpent.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? Uh, and, um, it was promised that that snake's head would be crushed. Well, then what happens after Daniel refuses the food and is given all wisdom and knowledge, we then see in chapter two that all kingdoms-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of which Babylon's gold head is at the top, get crushed.
Seth: Get crushed.
David: And so it's, he... Whenever you have somebody pass the test-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and-
Seth: Do you know where that... In chapter two, the meteor, the rock-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... it strikes the feet.
David: Right.
Seth: It strikes the heel.
David: Yeah, the heel.
Seth: The heel. It strikes the heel.
David: Ah, come on.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Which is, if, if you missed that, Genesis 3:15-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... talks about the snake's head getting crushed by the heel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so it's interesting to think of the Garden of Gethsemane or the t- the temptation by Satan in the wilderness as new tests for Jesus.
David: That's right. Absolutely.
Seth: He's, he's a new Daniel being offered the same test.
David: A new Adam and new Eve.
Seth: A new Adam and new Eve, and he passes it, and what happens? He's ascended to a throne and makes peace for people living in exile. Still, uh, com- uh, the first believers are still in exile under Rome.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But Jesus was ascended to his throne, and he ma- gave them peace-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and eternal life even in the belly of empire.
David: Right. So that's good news.
Seth: Great news.
David: I think that my second point also is good news, and it's that, and my second point was that we all have these little kings in us that wanna rule-
Seth: That's right. Yeah
David: ... and they need to die first in order to know that God rules. That's really good news because there is a huge lie in the world, that it's better to be King Nebuchadnezzar than it is to be a servant in his kingdom.
Seth: Mm.
David: Right? That, like-
Seth: No
David: ... it would be better to be the king. It would be better to be in control than to let somebody else be in control. That it would be better to have all the power than to submit to power, and that's just... We all believe that is very true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Autonomy is better-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... than servitude.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We just, we b- I mean, the-
Seth: Right.
David: Um, everybody listening is probably like, "Yeah, that's, that's it."
Seth: Right.
David: But that's not the biblical dream.
Seth: Yeah, that's what built Babel-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and what God destroyed.
David: That's what led to the fall.
Seth: That's what led to confusion.
David: Yes. And it's like we are called to be free from that lie, that first lie that the serpent told and now that Nebuchadnezzar's touting, right, that Satan tried to tout to Jesus. It happens over and over and over again, that autonomy and self-control and self-reliance are ultimate goods.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And the good news is that when we die to that, we actually get life, and life is submission to God.
Seth: Mm.
David: And, like, that's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... actually life. That's actually a better way to live, and the better way to be human is to be an apprentice of Jesus, a s- a submitter to the law of God. That's actually a better way to live.
Seth: Yeah. Uh, this is just funny, and I don't think what's implied by what you're saying, all that's good news. But it's like heavy is the head that wears the crown.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it, if you have a good king, a universal sovereign providing resurrection life, and you have-... don't have to rule that kingdom-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... if you're the one who-
David: Oh
Seth: ... doesn't have to die for the sins of mankind-
David: Let's go
Seth: ... if you're the one who doesn't have to adjudicate all the complicated justice, and you can just accept the rule of a perfect sovereign, I mean, that feels like an easier yoke to live under-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a live- [laughs] Like, oh, great, yeah, a perfect king who does perfect justice every time-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and offers eternal life from his table, okay, I don't have to be in charge.
David: I'd rather be a citizen in that kingdom than run it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I don't, I don't, I don't have to ru-
David: I don't-
Seth: Like-
David: ... wanna be the perfect king-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... 'cause I can't be. I think I can be, and I ruin everything in my life. When I'm sovereign, everything gets ru- ruined. When God is sovereign, I can have peace in His kingdom.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's good news.
Seth: That's good news.
David: And Daniel, the amazing thing about Daniel is Daniel is able, in the belly of the beast, under not a good king, right, he's able to, like, build a little mini Eden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, he's able to live under the sovereign rule of the one true king-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the midst of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... exile.
Seth: Yeah, and his narrative is that- that his little kingdom of Eden extends to all the people of God in Babylon.
David: It starts to grow.
Seth: It starts to grow.
David: All throughout Daniel.
Seth: That's why Jeremiah and Ezekiel can prophesy about their time in Babylon with some degree of peace and hope. God's people thrive in Babylon-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because Daniel built Eden inside of Babylon. [laughs]
David: That's right. He was a blessing to Babylon and to-
Seth: The-
David: ... Israel
Seth: ... and to Israel.
David: All the nations that r- were ruled by Babylon were blessed because of Daniel's involvement there, because he built Eden, because he obeyed God's commands.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's amazing, yeah.
Seth: So-
David: So I think that's why it's good news that death-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... comes first, that, like, we, we can put our lives on the line like Daniel did with the test.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, why are tests good news?
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, because dying to self-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and laying down our life and submitting to the king is actually a better way to live.
Seth: Let's ask a different question-
David: Okay
Seth: ... on the same thing. Why is it good that a priest passes the test?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: So that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... yeah, we, like, so we t- we set up like what is a priest? A priest is someone who provides connection with God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's also ruling alongside the true king to administer-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the proper kingdom of justice in God's land. So the temple, like, why is it good that a, the, a priest passed the test and-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... inaugurates a new temp- like, right.
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, we see kind of some of the fruit of that in this story. So Daniel's the one who initiates the test.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then, uh, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you know-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his three compatriots, kinda get swept along with him, and they obey with him, but Daniel was the intermediate.
Seth: Yeah, he was the-
David: He's the one who went to the chief of the units and put everything on the line. And so he intermediates for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... his friends, and they get the blessing along with him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then he also ends up intermediating for the king himself because now the king has advisors 10 times as wise as everyone else.
Seth: Right, the king is blessed.
David: The king is blessed, so Daniel's now mediating for the nations and the Jews-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he's the stand- and he's, he's the stand-in. How? By doing what priests have always done in the temple, obeying the law-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... keeping themselves undefiled and without blemish in the midst of their labor.
Seth: We talked about Daniel building an Eden within Babylon.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But he's also building a new temple-
David: That's right
Seth: ... and a new... And he's building a kingdom of God within Babylon.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, he's... And, like, all of the national and religious imagery that comes with temples and nations and kingdoms, there's also happening simultaneous. And we talked about how Nebuchadnezzar's offering another way to worship-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... another religion, the religion of self, the religion of autonomy, and even there, Daniel's offering another way to rule, and he's building a new kingdom and a new religion that brings blessing to all people. What did the rule of empire do? What did the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... empire of self do? It colonized.
David: That's right.
Seth: But the, the kingdom that followed God's word-
David: Mm
Seth: ... blesses all people.
David: Even those that would seek to curse them.
Seth: Yes.
David: Even Nebuchadnezzar, who annexed the temple, gets blessed because that's how God kingd- God's kingdom works.
Seth: Mm.
David: That's amazing. So how does Jesus do that? How's Jesus the priest who blesses by laying his life down? I may have just said it.
Seth: You j-
David: But, no- I know, it's just the question.
David: The answer's in the question
Seth: ... I mean, he had the test of the God.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: That's gotta be. He accepted the, the exile of the grave and of the cross.
David: Yes.
Seth: He was resurrected and inaugurates not just a new Eden-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for his people, but a new kingdom for his people-
David: Right
Seth: ... new citizenship for his people.
David: He's our intermediary, too, where it's like we don't have to be Daniel, we get to be Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? He is the one who goes up to the powers and put everything on the line and said, "I'm gonna eat vegetables, even if it kills me."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it did kill him, but then we get the blessing along with him.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he's our intermediary.
Seth: Right.
David: He's a better priest. He goes-
Seth: He's a better... He's, like, he leads.
David: He leads.
Seth: He's the king-
David: He's the king
Seth: ... of this new-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kingdom Eden thing.
David: Yeah, instead of just taking the sacrifices to the altar, he is the sacrifice on the altar.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, he's like, "I'll lay my life down with broccoli and water if I have to."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? And Jesus does that. Uh, and that's why. He's, he's just a better priest. That's so good.
Seth: The priest that passed the test.
David: The priest that passes the test, Daniel 1.
Seth: Yeah. And there's all sorts of other priests that fail to pass the test.
David: Yes.
Seth: Um, we, we didn't mention the wine, but he refuses the king's wine.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, there's nothing wrong with wine-
David: Nope
Seth: ... in Hebrew culture. Um, but do you remember Nadab and Abihu-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Book of Numbers?
David: Yes.
Seth: They offer strange fire to the Lord-
David: Right
Seth: ... right after an incident where, of drinking.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: There's a story about drinking, and then right after that, there's strange fire that's offered to the Lord, and the implication is maybe that had something to do with drinking-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the reason why they were bad priests to God. They were priests that failed the test-
David: Ah
Seth: ... and were consumed by the fire of God instead.
David: Right.
Seth: So here we have another offer of w-
Seth: Uh, implication of wine, new priests passing the te- anyway, I'm just now-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... just spinning about how, oh, there's always been tests that are unique for priests.
David: That's true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Or we think about the, like, Korah's rebellion and the test that was given w- uh, with all the bowls and everything-
Seth: Oh, right
David: ... with Aaron.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it proved who God's true priest was, or with his staff that budded in the temple-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and all that stu- like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... yeah. Th- th- there's another, there's another theme that we're just noticing here, which is, like, there are tests for priests.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But they're not always passed.
Seth: They're not always passed.
David: Yeah. It's also another way to say, like, oh, i- if Daniel did pass this test-
Seth: Right
David: ... and said, like, "I'm gonna eat vegetables and get fat, and that's gonna prove that I am God's priest," just like Aaron's budding staff proved-
Seth: Right
David: ... that he was God's priest.
Seth: Yeah, and so maybe then the implication is that because Jesus passed the test, he's qualified to build a new temple. It's not that he's qualified to build a new kingdom, although he is-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because he's a ruler like Daniel.
David: Right.
Seth: It's not that he's qualified to build a new Eden because he's a new Adam like Daniel, w- even though he is.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He's, he's, uh, qualified to build a new temple 'cause he's passed the test of the priests.
David: That's right.
Seth: Aaron built the first temple with Mose- uh, the tabernacle with Moses-
David: Tabernacle, yeah
Seth: ... because he was qualified. He passed the test.
David: Right.
Seth: And he builds a new temple in himself.
David: Mm.
Seth: Jesus is the temple where we find access to God and proper aligning to his value and his culture and his literature.
David: Right. How, how did, how did the king know that Daniel was going to be a trustworthy advisor? It's because he passed the test, right?
Seth: Mm.
David: There was a miracle-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... that proved that something is different with Daniel.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And in a, in an even much, much better way, Jesus passed the test of going to the grave, and it's proved that he is the final high priest that we need for, for-
Seth: Mm
David: ... being an intermediary because he was raised from the grave.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why sh- why should we trust Jesus? Because he passed the final test.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He rose from the grave.
Seth: Rose from the grave.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He refused the devil in the wilderness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He went through the garden-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and didn't do his own will. Oh, we ta- keep talking about Babel as the empire of autonomy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the empire of self-rule, the empire of self-worship.
David: Not my will, but yours.
Seth: Not my will, but yours.
David: Right.
Seth: He, he reverses Babel. He passes the test of Babel-
David: That's right
Seth: ... in the Garden of Gethsemane-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which qualifies him to build a temple not to his own will and self-worship, but to Go- the wor- the true worship of God in himself.
David: Right, which just to say, Jesus does say that he kind of becomes the new tower or the new Jacob's ladder.
Seth: Oh.
David: This connection between God and man. In John, he says that you will see angels ascending-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... and descending on the Son of Man.
Seth: That's right.
David: You know what he's like. He is the connection between heaven and earth-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that Babel tried to build.
Seth: Interesting.
David: Anyway, just like a little sidebar. Man, Daniel 1.
Seth: Daniel 1.
David: Okay.
Seth: Da- so if you remember from our introductory episode-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... we're doing, there's chiasms in Daniel.
David: That's right.
Seth: This is the introduction of Daniel in exile.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And we've just said, like, when the people of God are in exile, what's the line? Exile, temple, visions, wisdom.
David: The priesthood.
Seth: The priesthood.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, s- universal sovereignty.
David: [laughs]
Seth: There's lots on the line.
David: Lots on the line.
Seth: There's lots on the line, and it's all introduced in the first chapter.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And all those things are gonna get picked up again in the final chapters in 8 through 12.
David: That's right.
Seth: We'll get there in a few weeks, but next week, we'll be in Daniel chapter 2-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... where we talk about a vision of a giant statue being smashed by a meteor.
David: Right.
Seth: In Daniel.
David: And it represents four kingdoms-
Seth: Yep
David: ... which i- i- it has its mirror in Daniel 7 in the vision of the four beasts.
Seth: That's right.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we'll talk about that next week-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and how Daniel gets promoted to the minister of magic.
David: Ooh.
Seth: The position of the minister of magic within Babylon. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's awesome. Well, yeah, thank you guys so much for being with us here in Daniel chapter 1. We'll see you next week in Daniel chapter 2.
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