Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus. And this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a Biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus.
David: Let's jump in. All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: I am excellent. I have—
David: are you good?
Seth: Perfectly proportionately caffeinated. We've talked about this before.
David: It's like I've had the right amount of caffeine. Not too under, not too over.
Seth: Right amount of caffeine, you're in the sweet spot to go.
David: Yeah, I got there yesterday and it was like, it's something like, like turns in your biology and your chemistry and you just like lock in and you're like happy and joyful but calm.
Seth: How many things can I get done today? Yeah, it's gonna be great. Yeah.
David: And like, yeah, it was good yesterday. I'm, I'm like, I feel like I think there's some times though where you, you just can't hit that zone, you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And it's like You're like always gonna feel undercaffeinated, but you also know that if you ever drink that one extra cup or half cup, you'd be immediately over. There's no sweet spot in the middle.
Seth: Right, that's exactly right. Or you get that cup of coffee that actually makes you more tired. Has that ever happened to you? Oh, I hate that cup. That's the worst cup of coffee.
David: That's usually either like the 11:00 AM cup or sometimes like the 3:00 PM last ditch effort cup. Yes, that's the worst. That did more harm than good.
Seth: Yeah, and I go home and I'm just, exhausted, drugged, and my kids hate me. I had this moment the other day where I was super productive. I made a cake, I fixed a door, I painted a shutter. I like wrote some stuff for like Spoken Gospel or for a sermon. And I was like, I fired on like every creative cylinder I could think of within the space of like 4 hours. And I like, I just felt like a man. It was just—
David: Yeah. And like, and like a Renaissance man. You're like a Renaissance man. It was like I'm baking and, you know, doing like woodwork and I'm writing literature and theology. That's a good day. That's always fun. Well, anyway, hi everyone listening. Me and Seth are just catching up.
Seth: Just checking in.
David: Yes, this is our check-in. In case you forget, we are very good friends and we like to talk to each other. So, okay, we are— we've decided now we are 2 episodes away from finishing the book of Deuteronomy. And yes, and the Torah. Oh my goodness, we have, we have put a lot of hours into the Torah.
Seth: I think we're at 72 episodes.
David: Oh man, I have to go look. That's amazing.
Seth: Isn't that crazy?
David: That's crazy. So anyway, so we are going to do 26 to 30 today and then 31 to the end on the next episode and then we'll be done. And then Seth is coming to Oklahoma City. That's right. To record the Book of Esther with me. And that'll be a lot of fun. So anyway, so a lot of things to look forward to. But let's jump into Deuteronomy and focus up.
Seth: So we have just come out of that last stretch of miscellaneous law code is what a lot of it said, stretch of 21 various laws, which were supposed to be examples of the way you're supposed to live in the land of Canaan.
David: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And so like, if you remember the last, you know, huge chunk of Deuteronomy has been unpacking the Ten Commandments. So what does it mean to love God only? What does it mean to observe the Sabbath? What does it mean to honor your father and mother, but not just your father and mother, the judges and the prophets and just unpacking it. And then those last bits were like, and here's an example of what it looks like to live in holy community with one another. You know, honoring your neighbor, protecting your neighbor, looking out for the sojourner and the widow. And so now we've kind of come to the tail end of the law code section of Deuteronomy and all the people rejoiced. Seth and I even rejoiced.
Seth: We did rejoice a little bit. We talked about last week too how like just kind of like this, like the seeming randomness of the laws should kind of— should make you feel overwhelmed and like long for not just more rules, but like a heart that loves God's law and like does it intuitively. Yeah. And you know, I thought of— I've heard that often my whole life, like the law should drive you to the gospel, the law should make you want God to write his law on your heart. And that's always felt really like non-concrete. Like, oh sure, I've heard it so many times, it feels like it means nothing. I've— it finally made sense to me.
David: And why was that?
Seth: It is because of my daughter.
David: Oh really?
Seth: So we have in our neighborhood like 5 houses, okay, that our kids, um, like explore and go in. Neighbor houses, they have kids, they go in all the time. And I think the last episode we talked about how they like learn swear words at one of the houses. And like one house they have like this ramp that they ride far down. They keep injuring themselves on. And so over the course of time, we keep finding ourselves having to make more and more rules about the kids going to other people's houses. Yep. Hey, when they start teaching you swear words, you should leave. When that girl starts looking at you and calling you mean things— we had one girl come up to the house and look at Sunny and say, hey, Shiloh, you're invited to my birthday party, but you're not. Like, we've had to like talk to her about all these like crazy like little different rules. Don't hang out with that person when they do that. Don't listen to that music when they listen to that. Excuse yourself from this conversation. And Sunny has no categories for how to deal with those situations intuitively, right?
David: On her own. All the—
Seth: all we can do is make more rules. You can only go to their house after 4 PM and between 5 PM. You have to come home when we say you do. You need a walkie-talkie and tell us every time you go to a different house. You need to tell us all— we always need to know where you're going. And like There's so many rules now about going to friends' houses that I can't keep up with them. Like, Sunny, and like every time she comes to us, she's exasperated because she can never feel like she can keep up with all the different rules that we have about all the different situations. And there's always new situations we always have to make new rules for. And I was like, Erica, I want what Deuteronomy says Israel doesn't have. I just want Sunny to intuitively know what it means to be a godly girl when all of her friends are going crazy. Like, that's what I want for her. And I was like, that's what Deuteronomy wants for us too. You're like, I'd never like experienced it so viscerally until like this moment as a parent.
David: That's amazing.
Seth: And that's kind of what we're talking about all day today.
David: That really will be where we land the plane is like God giving us hearts that just intuitively do what he wants, right?
Seth: We don't need more rules. We, we just know what to do.
David: Not because, not because moral behavior isn't right or isn't needed in, in God's, you know, community. It's that it's so important that it becomes a part of us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, that's crazy. That's a really, that's a really helpful, like, illustration.
Seth: And then, like, the, the all these, like, slipshod, shatter, like, uh, shotgun, like, blast of love, like, it goes everywhere and just does all these different things. It's like, I can't predict the number of different scenarios Sunny might encounter to make a rule for her for I need her just to know what it means to love God and love her neighbor. Yeah, intuitively.
David: And to keep herself holy.
Seth: And to keep herself holy in those situations. I can't actually keep making laws for her life.
David: Wow, so that's really helpful. So man, so we come in after the shotgun approach of, I don't know, here's a bunch of other laws that just a bunch of unforeseen circumstances that I wish you would intuit but you can't. And then we get to, uh, chapter 26 and And it talks about when you come into the land, which is like good news. Yeah, you're gonna cross the Jordan, you're gonna conquest the land, it's gonna be yours. When you come into the land, here are two rules about offerings. And you have one offering that's when you come into the land, this is your we're in the land offering.
Seth: They settle in the land, they build, they have their first crops, or they plant seeds, first crop comes, they're supposed to take that first fruit of the first crop in the for the first year in the new land, bring it to the temple of the Lord and recite this liturgical prayer.
David: Yes, it's so beautiful. You're supposed to go to the priest, offer your sacrifice, and when you give the priest your offering, you're supposed to repeat the story of your salvation. You talk about how you were slaves in— or no, it even starts with like Abraham. And it's like there was this sojourning, wandering Aramean.
Seth: Yeah, that's what it was. He went down to Egypt. Yeah.
David: This wandering person was—
Seth: my dad came on the boat.
David: From Italy.
Seth: Yes, he landed.
David: Yeah, you repeat your story and it's like, and then we were slaves in Egypt, and then God rescued us and did these— yeah, and then he brought us— he made a covenant with us and brought us into the land and all these other things. Like, it's like repeating the story of their salvation as, as like— and like, and then they have the fruit of it right there. They're like, and this is the fruit of God's salvation, the proof. Yeah, yeah, that's—
Seth: I was like, um, like It's kind of like, it's like an affirmation that God has provided, and that's what the first fruit has always been like. It's this affirmation that God has provided your family with food. Like, here's what he's given us, and here's part of it to celebrate back to him. And like, even, but it's also like this, it's just that, that celebration is a smaller version of what's actually happening in like the whole providence of God's history. God has provided a land for his people, not just crops for a year. But like everything. Anyway, I was thinking about that.
David: It's really good. I, I, I mean, it's really hard for me, and I, I'm not, I'm not supposed to fight this inclination. I just, when I read this story, I'm just like drawn to the gospel because it's just like, this is what God calls us to do. He calls us to repeat the story of our salvation as like part of our thanksgiving to him. Like when we worship, what do we do? We come and we sing again and again, like, I was lost and without hope, and you— I was in slavery to sin and death, and Jesus came to earth and he died for my sins, and he rose, and he's interceding for me at the right hand of God, and he'll come again to save me. And we sing that over and over and over and over again. And like, that's like part of the Thanksgiving fabric of living in the new kingdom of Jesus.
Seth: I hadn't thought about these, like, these two liturgical moments as like a blueprint for our church services. But like, you're right, they kind of are. It's like they're remembering what God has done, right? And celebrating what God is doing in your life right now. And then the next one is tithing. I was like, it's giving to the Lord's work. It's like, what do we do at church? We celebrate what God has done, right? And we give for the expansion of God's kingdom among the poor, the powerless, the hopeless, the sojourner, and the pastor. That's what we do every time. We come together, we celebrate what God has done, hear what God will do, and then give generously so that might happen more often in more places.
David: That's something to stand and think about. That's really cool. And then, and so what I think what's happening here is with these two laws, because they seem kind of strange, it's like, so the first year you come in, give this offering, and then the third year you give the offering for the poor. It's like, why did he skip the second year?
Seth: You know? Well, it just goes back to like this, the rhythms that they talked about before, right?
David: Exactly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so every— it's like, uh, for 2 years you do this kind of Thanksgiving offering, you go and throw a party, and then every 3rd year you're supposed to give an offering that goes to the poor. And so a long time ago on a podcast, we talked about the idea of like just splurging on a vacation, you know, twice, you know, 1 year, and then go on a crazy vacation the 2nd year. But on the 3rd year, instead of going on a crazy vacation, you give all that money you would have used to the poor.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And then you do that again and that gets you to year 6, right? And then on year 7, it's the Sabbath year.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's how it— that's the kind of pattern. So for me, I think when I came into this, it was like this all-encompassing command. It was on the first year you do this, and then the last year of the rhythm you do this. And it's like showing that, like, I want you to remember what I've done for you in the past on the first day and the last day. Like from beginning to end, I want you to be repeating the rhythms of my salvation. And that is how you'll remember me in the land, stay in the land, you know, have joy in the land.
Seth: Is that why you think these are the last two laws?
David: I do. Yeah, I do. Because it's like when you enter and when you stay, and it's just like this all-encompassing rhythm of entering the land.
Seth: Thanksgiving and generosity. Thanksgiving and generosity.
David: Yep. And that's like what trains their hearts to continually abide by God's law. And we'll find that doesn't work. But yeah, for them. But yeah, that's, I think that's why it kind of caps off here. And so after, after the two offering commands, we get this like reestablishment of the covenant. And God just kind of repeats his formula of, of the covenant. And that's kind of it for the covenant law portion of Deuteronomy.
Seth: Let me just read 16. This day, the Lord your God commands you to do these statutes and rules. You shall therefore be careful to do them with all your heart and with all your soul. You have declared today that the Lord is your God, and you will walk in his ways and keep his statutes and his commands and his rules, and will obey his voice. And the Lord has declared today that you are a people for his treasured possession, as he has promised you, and that you are to keep all of his commandments. That's it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You shall be the people holy of the Lord your God as he has promised.
David: Yeah, I just think the whole idea of God possessing a people, you know, is just such a beautiful idea. Even, even in the Bible itself, like God says, what other god has claimed a people as his own? You know, like even the pagan gods didn't do that thing like that, that a god would say, I am entering into God as their own. Exactly.
Seth: That's right. Yeah.
David: But what, what other god says, you are mine, like, you are my people and I am your God. And like enters into a marriage covenant with them. Like, that's unheard of. And just this treasured possession and like this delight that he has in his people. I think it's just such a great way to end the law section to remind us of like, why do these laws exist? Well, why do you give laws to your daughter about going and visiting all these other houses? It's because she's your daughter and you're her father and you love her. And delight in her and want to keep her safe and let her flourish and be blessed.
Seth: And like, I didn't read verse 19, but it says, and that he will set you in praise and in fame and in honor high above all nations that he's made. Like, why has God said— done that? Why is he making these laws? Why do I make laws for my daughter? So that she will be praised. She— like, not that she'll be famous, but that she'll be like known among her peers as someone who's honorable and high above all others. Like, that's a godly desire for my daughter. It's a God— it's God's desire for his people at large, that they would be holy, blameless, above reproach. Not in like a pharisaical way, but like, no, city on a hill.
David: That's what I was going to say. We— yeah, we need to remember what the point of all these laws are here in this covenant, is that like God is forming a holy people that they might be a light to the nations and that he might raise them up. Like, this is literally like ground elevation language, so that once again they might be like a holy mountain to which all the nations can stream. And at the top of mountains in the ancient Near Eastern thought is where the abode of the gods were. And so as he raises them up and they come closer and closer to God, the people— that what they do is they create a pathway, a highway to God himself, in that through their moral behavior and through their being and bearing the character of God, through their obedience, people will be able to come to Yahweh And it's like, this is a picture of like what we weren't able to do for ourselves, but what Jesus did for us, that he perfectly obeyed God and became the mountain that was lifted up high above everyone else. Right. Philippians 2, right. God, because of his obedience, being obedient even to death on a cross, God raised him up to the highest place. Like Jesus did what God promised, you know, should have happened to Israel if they would have obeyed. Since Jesus obeyed, he was raised to the highest place and now all people can be blessed by him. By putting their faith in him. They come to the mountain of Christ and they're able to draw near to Yahweh. Um, and what, and what's amazing too is then it doesn't just stay the privilege of Jesus to be high and lifted up. He says that we will be lifted up too. We will be raised to glorious new life and we will reign with him and we'll be seated with him in the heavenly places.
Seth: With him in the heavenly—
David: what?
Seth: That's crazy.
David: And we will judge angels, Paul says. Like, wait, what?
Seth: That means—
David: I don't know what that means either, but he says it, you know.
Seth: And like, it's crazy.
David: Like, but this position of power over the nations, we'll judge will judge angels, will rule with him. This is— that's a fulfillment in the New Testament of what's promised here, is that when you obey, you become the new rulers of earth, which is what Adam and Eve were supposed to be back in the beginning. Like, I've given you dominion over the earth, rule over it.
Seth: Yeah, like, this is probably a good time to just jump a little bit to chapter 28, where he just lists the blessings for obedience. If you obey, Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb. Blessed the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle and the increase of your herds. Blessed shall you be when you come in and blessed when you go out. You will be the head and not the tail. The Lord has commanded blessing on your barns and everything that you undertake. If you obey the commandments of the Lord, which I command you today, and do not turn away from it, like it will go well with you. Like over and over and over again, all blessing all the time for those who obey. And part of the reason why this obedience was a light to the nations is because in their obedience, their nation would like physically actually flourish.
David: That's right.
Seth: Garden of Eden would be redone. Multiplication would be happening everywhere.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like the increase, the fruit of your womb, like kids wouldn't die in childbirth.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Cattle would give, have multiple, multiple little baby oxen. Like there would be so much fertility. An industry happening in Israel that the nations would want to come. This is exactly what Jesus says about the city on a hill, uh, do good works so that they might glorify your Father in heaven.
David: Like, right, the blood—
Seth: like, the new creation is done when we obey. Like, the new creation is seen when we obey God's word. Like, yeah, physically in the land, in our life. Yeah, exactly.
David: Yeah, I wrote down like some of the blessings for obedience. There's, uh, material prosperity, familial fruitfulness, military victory, political stability, religious fulfillment. You know, like, all those things are happening. And like, people are then going like, what on earth is going on in Israel? Like, I want to go check that out. And like, we see this the very first time in the Queen of Sheba, right? Like, we see the Queen of Sheba come and visit Solomon to see all his splendor. And Solomon ruins it because he doesn't give all the glory to God. He just becomes boastful. And the same thing happens when the king of Babylon comes to visit Hezekiah. We read about that. And Hezekiah just boasts about all his, all his gold. Like, they take the opportunities for the nation streaming to, uh, you know, be aghast at what's going on in the blessings of Israel to talk about themselves instead of God. Hey, David here to let you know that Spoken Gospel has another podcast! It's called Jesus in All of the Bible. It is a short 3- to 4-minute commentary on a passage of Scripture showing how it points us to Jesus. It's basically like the snack-size version of our full Spoken Gospel podcast. We hope you'll check it out! Just search for Jesus in All of the Bible in your podcast app and be sure to subscribe. Okay, back to the show.
Seth: Okay, so, uh, before we— we kind of skipped ahead just a tiny little bit. There's a section where it's like, this is what— this is the covenant, this is a good thing, this is what God will do for you. And there's this whole section about 10 verses, one chapter later, describing those blessings. But before we get there, there's this ceremony that they're supposed to do once they get into the land, and they're supposed to set up two different mountains with with two different altars on them. And one mountain will be called the mountain of blessing, uh, called Mount, uh, Gerizim, and the other one is called the mountain of cursing, Mount Ebal. And you're supposed to divide the chiefs of the two tribes of Israel between these two mountains. And on the top of Mount Ebal, which is described here, the priests will— or the representative of the leaders will, like, recite the curses of the covenant, and all the people will say amen. And then all the priests on the top of Mount Gerizim are supposed to recite the blessings of the covenant, and everyone would also shout amen. That's kind of what's supposed to happen, and it does happen in Joshua 8. But fascinatingly, here when they do this ceremony— and we talked about this already, I think, in our Deuteronomy 11 and 12 podcast.
David: Yeah, we pointed forward this a little bit.
Seth: Uh, and so the idea was like, if the whole book of Deuteronomy is kind of setting you up like this idea, the choice between blessing and cursing, between life and between death, You have this like built into the geography. So when you walk the land in the geography, you have that choice between life and death, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life, like right before you all the time. And you're supposed to choose, you're supposed to go towards Mount—
David: Oh my God.
Seth: Okay.
David: I don't know if you said that last time. Oh, I don't think I've, I don't think I've ever seen the two mountains, Gerizim and Ebal, as the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Seth: I think you're supposed to see—
David: you're definitely supposed to see that this is the new Eden they're entering into. I put two choices between you on these two tall things.
Seth: Yeah, that's right.
David: Like, and like they— and trees in the prophets represent gods, and the mountains are the abodes of gods. There's lots of good reasons.
Seth: Wow.
David: I didn't— I never— I've never known that until this very second.
Seth: Well, I'm so glad to have educated you.
David: So great. I love that.
Seth: So that's what's happening. Wow. That's the scene that's being set.
David: New Eden, new choice.
Seth: Yes.
David: Oh, my mind right now is blown.
Seth: And Joshua does it. But what's fascinating about the book of Deuteronomy is that it lists the entire chapter of curses that are supposed to be pronounced from Mount Ebal, but it does not list the blessings supposed to be announced from Mount Gerizim. And I think this should be a clue narratively for us. That it's foreshadowing Israel's disobedience, like that they're not actually going to get to experience— they're not going to choose the Tree of Life, they're not going to choose the mountain of blessing. Um, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, like behind the scenes is foreshadowing, but I think that's what you're meant to get.
David: Oh yeah, I think it's pretty clear actually. I, I don't think you have to backpedal that much. You hear this, you have this long section of curses anyone who does this, and all the people will say amen. Curses anyone who does this. And every— and over and over and over again, the people are saying, yes, yes, I agree, may it be so, you know, however you want to translate amen to all the curses. And then there's no yes and may it be so to the blessing. So it's like, I don't even think that's like a hint.
Seth: That's just like description of the blessing, but no, but no amen to it.
David: There's no amen to it. There's no may it be so. Like, yeah, yeah. So I'm like, I think it's spot on. And I mean, it will get there. It bears out that that's exactly what Moses says is going to happen.
Seth: And so what you have then in the next couple chapters, 28 and 20, is a long chapter. It is. It's very long. 8 verses long.
David: Yeah, I was, I was caught off guard, uh, while reading it this morning.
Seth: Again, I was turning my Bible to all—
David: yeah, it's like this chapter keeps going.
Seth: Um, and what you have is a description of like, it's the curses aren't that long. They're only 26 verses of curses and they're kind of representative curses like based on the Ten Commandments. Like they make sense. And what you have is essentially a description, like a vivid description of the life of blessing and the life of cursing. So we already talked a little bit about the life of blessing.
David: That's right, we did.
Seth: That takes up, uh, 14 verses.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Uh, the, the vivid description of the life of cursing takes up the other 53.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like, even that proportionately— proportion, like, should clue you in if the omission of the Mount of— Mount of Blessing didn't, that more than likely what Israel is going to experience is the curses. Um, and I think, yeah, so do you have anything to say, like, why do you think there are more curses than blessings?
David: I mean, I think it's that exact reason, that, that God is doing everything he can to warn the people that they will fall away and they will be cursed. And the language is going to change here in a little bit. I know we're not trying to jump past 28. But like, even in 28, just the proportionate, like, nature of the short talk about the blessing and the long excursus on the curses. And then what's also interesting is, you know, every— in the curse section, it kind of goes through and overturns every blessing, you know. So it's like, if it says that your, your children will not die in childbirth, then all your children will be stillborn. It's kind of the opposite, you know. It's like, you're, you know, so just kind of undoes all the blessing. But then it doubles down and starts bringing up curses to which we have no blessing counterpart, you know. So it's like all the curses that were on Egypt, I'm going— like all the plagues of Egypt are now going to be on you. Like, yeah, this was the most vivid for me.
Seth: So, so the blessing was, blessed will be the fruit of your womb.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then in Deuteronomy 28:53, and you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters. And he talks about how they'll, they'll become cannibals.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the most timid, well-educated, sophisticated father will like hoard his children and cut up their flesh.
David: Yeah. Or the, or the image of like—
Seth: Gentle mother will eat her placenta.
David: Yeah. That's the one I was gonna say. Like it falls between her feet and then she grabs it and goes and eats it in secret.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like so vivid.
Seth: It's— yeah, that's, uh, yeah, yeah. It was super vivid.
David: And so like I, We've talked about this a few times before about like, why does God lean into things like curses and fear of the Lord and things like that, you know? And we've landed the plane several times about this idea that like, like God is going to give us every resource that he could possibly throw our way to help us fight sin and obey him, you know? And if love is one, he's going to give us love for him. You know, and if fear is one, he's going to give us fear. And so I just think it's interesting to be like, when Jesus comes and he talks about curses, you know, he talks, he talks about the ultimate curse of separation from him in Gehenna, in hell, you know, like, and he talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth and they're going to be stuck outside the door banging and begging to come in. You know, it's like, whoa, like, back off, Jesus, you know? But he's, he's picking up on this that he is pleading with us today in a dire fashion, just like Moses and God were with the people of Israel, to hold fast to him, like to trust him, to not go astray. Because blessing is real and there's really good things that God wants to give you, but curses are also very real and God will punish and separate. And like, it's just, it's a real dichotomy that we have to like choose. It's both.
Seth: And I do think, mate, like, I think in the Gospels at least you do have like a ratcheting up of the blessings, like a ration of the mercy. There's less talk— there is talk about hell and separation and fear and Gehenna. And like, there— Jesus talks about that more than any of the other prophets. Like, he does talk about it.
David: That's right.
Seth: But you also do have like a far more vivid picture of God's grace, his mercy, his kindness, his goodness, and his power towards believers in Jesus's death.
David: Oh yeah. I mean, it's not just physical blessing, it's eternal life with him forever, you know? It's not like I'll build you a mountain and you'll kind of like start to elevate up toward me. It's I will bring heaven down to you and dwell with you forever. You know, it's like everything gets ratcheted up.
Seth: You're actually— your point about how like we should continue to see these same like curses like present in the New Testament, uh, chapter 28, verses 58, it's, uh, or 59, and the Lord will bring you— on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sickness and grieving. Grievous and lasting, and he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. So he talks about like, on one hand, like there's an interesting thing here, like if you choose to sin, you're gonna go back to your old ways, you're gonna go back to slavery. But also in the Book of Revelation, all of the bowl judgments, the trumpet judgments, they're actually retellings of the curses and the sicknesses that happened in Egypt. Right. So one of the reasons— so like, the New Testament understands, like, the cursed life, the one that doesn't go towards the mountain of blessing, that doesn't see Jesus on the top of the tree— cursed, like, the one that doesn't go there will experience all these curses again, either when Jesus comes to judge the world or in their separation from him. Like, going back to Egypt, experiencing these curses is all through the New Testament as well. It's not— not there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And in fact, it's like ratcheted up. It's not just like— it's, it's like in Egypt there's like flies or locusts that come, but in like Exodus or in Revelation, there's like— they're locusts with like the heads of lions.
David: Yeah, everything's demonic, way crazier. It's like, it's just great.
Seth: Yeah. Anyway,
David: One thing you said just kind of sparked in me the— this, this thing that I've, I've heard about and talked about a little bit, but I don't usually double down on But it is interesting that on top of these mountains are altars, you know, right? And, you know, and you mentioned, you know, Jesus dying on the mountain of cursing for us, you know, curses anyone who hangs on a tree so that we could, you know, climb up the mountain of blessing. And I'm just, you know, I'm taken back to way earlier in the Torah when we were on a mountain again and there was an altar on it. And Abraham's son was put on that altar and was spared by a ram in the thicket, you know. But Jesus goes and puts himself on the mountain of cursing for us and, and dies for us. I mean, it's just like, is that, is that appropriate to see this here? You know, like, yeah, I would.
Seth: I mean, sure. I don't see any trees mentioned, so that would help me a little bit be like, okay, we have trees. But like, I think the high place of the mountain of the Lord an altar of a sacrifice is enough to see that there is a sacrifice on the hill of blessing and the hill of cursing. There's an altar with the law inscribed on it, one describing what happens to us if we disobey, and one describe what happens when we obey, right? And if Jesus is staying like straddling both mountains, like he has one foot in the grave, one foot in the curse, absorbing the curse, becoming sin for us, becoming a curse for us so that the only mountain that we can climb is the mountain of blessing. Yeah, that the inevitable outcome for those who have placed their faith in the one who's been cursed for us is blessing. Like, that, that's true. Yeah, that is true.
David: It is amazing too that like we're told to— like, you know, John talks about like when the Son of Man is lifted up, you know, referring to like the, the bronze serpent in the wilderness, you know, He's lifted up and you look at him, you'll be saved. Anyone who looks at him will be saved. It's like you kind of like if you had these two mountains in front of you, the closest we'll ever come to the mountain of cursing as Christians is looking at it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And saying like, Jesus died on that mountain for me. And then we can turn fully to the mountain of blessing and say, now this is my inheritance. Like, yeah, it's just cool. It is so cool.
Seth: I think there's like one other layer to that that I want to add, like, because part of what you talked about this a little bit, that Deuteronomy or the Torah is like wisdom literature. It's not simply about, um, what life will be like in eternity, but it's also what life will be like now. And so a lot of these blessings and curses are about what life will be like as you live it, as you obey, as you disobey. And if you disobey for a while, you can expect your life to look like this, but then once you start obeying, you can expect your life to look a little bit different. So I think one of the things we should recognize as Christians too is that while there's no ultimate curse for us, living unwisely, living unlike God commands, will bring about, um, the fruit of sin. The fruit of sin. Yeah, like, like we will experience, um, some of these curses to the whatever extent we continue to sin in our life. We will experience some of these curses. And to whatever— and maybe— and, and there's a category for innocent suffering. To whatever extent other people refuse to obey the Torah, we can also suffer at their hands as well. But I just wanted to say that too, because I think the other layer of this is not just eternal life, eternal blessedness, but also like there is a blessed way to live right now, right? And it's obeying God's commands. Blessed are the meek.
David: Yes.
Seth: For they will inherit the earth. Right there. Like, that's not just eschatological.
David: It's like present day. Yeah.
Seth: Kingdom reality. Yeah, I can—
David: I'm really glad you're doubling down on that. So like, what I'm about to say to counter it is I don't want to dilute it. So like, I agree. Yeah, it's kind of— it's the tension between Proverbs and Job, you know, like, and that's what we're talking about here is God is promising physical blessings to spiritual obedience. You know, and, um, I think just give us this day our daily bread.
Seth: Yeah, that's Jesus, right? Like, right, totally obey and love.
David: Yep. God loves— God loves to care for his people, you know, you know. And so anyway, um, but we also have like this Job category that's like Job's innocent and, uh, it wasn't even really the sins of other people, it was just like there's suffering that comes upon him that he did not have a direct corollary sin to deserve. Experienced the pain of cursing because he lives in a cursed world, and yet he didn't do anything to deserve that curse, you know, like, so there is that, that too, that I just want to bring up.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Just because so often people end up doing what the friends of Job do.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And they just say, like, what did you do wrong to deserve this? And that is— I just want anyone who's listening to know that that's the worst thing to say. And it's a very unbiblical thing to say. That if something bad is happening to you, you must have done something to deserve it. The whole book of Job is written to disarm that weapon from our, like, our grasp. We can't use that argument. So anyway, I just want to, like, give that one caveat. Other than that, I'm all on board with it. It's also really interesting, before we leave the idea of, like, blessing and cursing and everything here, there is this statement that's made. I think it's in verse— yeah, 63. Of chapter 28.
Seth: Okay.
David: And here, I should turn there instead of paraphrasing it. 28:63. If you get there first, you can read it.
Seth: And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. That word delight threw me off.
David: That caught me so off guard.
Seth: Then you shall be plucked off the land you are entering to take possession of it.
David: So, so it's like I read it and I was like, I stopped and wrote a note when I was like, God takes delight in giving us good things. Like, right? I mean, that's like New Testament, like a father, a good father wants to give us good gifts. I was like, man, how cool is that? That God delights to give us good things. Like these blessings aren't necessarily because we deserve it and we earned it, but God like loves and it brings him pleasure and joy to make us happy. Like how cool is that? That God is delighted, like, in his soul, like, in his being, to make us happy. Like, we don't deserve that. That's super cool.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so I was just, like, really blown away by that. And then that same word, that God is satisfied in his soul, that he is delighted in himself, he is perfectly content within himself whenever he brings disaster on those who deserve it. Why? Well, because it's perfectly consistent with the mercy and grace of God to show goodness to people who don't really deserve it like that. And that brings him delight to do that. But it also brings God delight to execute justice against those who do deserve it.
Seth: Yeah, I think that's what I wrote down. Like, God delights in blessing, but also God delights in justice.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And like, I think we— when we read, like, bring ruin upon you and to destroy you, we assume somehow Israel's innocent.
David: Right, exactly.
Seth: And that their sin isn't causing others pain. But like, all sin— like, almost all these laws are like interpersonal. Oh yeah, theft, murder, rape, right? Uh, a lack of generosity, a lack of like forgiving of debts, whatever it is. It's like justice actually brings about mercy for those who have been sinned against, right? It's like God delights to bring blessing to the obedient.
David: Yep.
Seth: God likes to bring justice to those who are oppressed.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he also delights in bringing evil people to their ultimate deserved end.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God is— yeah, yeah, yeah. God is bringing about healing for the earth, for those who treat the earth badly. He's bringing about healing for people, for people who treat people badly. But then ultimately, I think we need to hear again and again and again, whose law is it that, that they're breaking? When you broke my law and my commands and my covenant. And we should hear what the psalmist reflected on when he said, against you and you alone have I sinned, that every sin, though it has horrible ramifications for the world around us, and need— those wrongs need to be made right. Restitution needs to be done.
Seth: More so, yes, harm the God that made the laws. That's right. Instituted the laws, who created you to obey the laws. Yes. Yeah.
David: You've sinned against him, and that's why his justice brings himself delight. And that— and like, that's just like God's goodness is, is, is like true even no matter like what he does, because everything he does is good. Like, whenever he curses, it's good. Whenever he gives blessing, it's good. And we need, I think, The Bible reframes our categories for goodness to, to be much larger and all-encompassing and based on the character of God than just whatever the circumstance is. You know, like, you know, like blessing is good, cursing is bad. Not whenever God's doing it. Yeah, it's always good and it brings him delight.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And think about— I mean, I think like if we, if we have that category of blessing is good, cursing is bad, we actually have no gospel. Yes, because without God cursing Jesus for us, we could never be blessed when we don't deserve it. If we think blessings should come to good people and, and cursing is always bad, we have no gospel. Yeah, because in the gospel, Jesus is cursed when he didn't deserve it, and we are blessed when we don't deserve it. Like, we do not get to choose the new tree of life in Jesus on the mountain of blessing if there is no delight in doing good and no delight in bringing cursing, right?
David: And isn't it amazing that that also— this, this, this little two-part sentence also gives us a way to see the whole gospel as a delight to God, that he was delighted to bless us through his death and he was delighted to bear our curse for us, like that God delighted to be cursed and to curse himself for us so that he could be delighted to extend us blessing and grace. Like, it turns the whole thing into a delight to the Lord. Like, for the joy set before him, he went to the cross, the writer of Hebrews says. It's like Jesus—
Seth: God wrote that line. Yeah. Knowing that ultimately he would be delighting in his own cursing.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So that he could delight in blessing everybody who places their trust in his son.
David: Okay, so there is another part of the curse that God talks about here that doesn't really have a, um, blessing corollary. Well, I guess it kind of does. The blessing corollary is you'll get to stay in the land. You can stay in the land. And then the, the corollary in the curse is you'll be exiled from the land. I'll kick you out. You'll go be ruled by nations you have not known who worship gods that aren't real gods, and you'll be stuck there. And that's where you'll go. And like, we see this play out in the Old Testament story, like, and the way it's written, like, it stops using conditional language like this, like 29 and 30, it stops using conditional language, or 28 and 29, I should say. It's not like you may and if, and it starts being you shall and you will. And like, it starts becoming way more definitive. That like exile is going to happen. And I love how critical scholars who don't believe in the sovereignty of God have to then say that there was this later editor to the book of Deuteronomy who came and put this stuff in after the exile had happened because they were like, how would— like, how would Moses know? It can't be Moses writing this because how would he know that they would go into exile? And it's like, because it's written by God.
Seth: Or even just more simply Moses lived with these people for 40 years, and he saw how prone they were to not listen. It's like a pretty well-educated guess that these people are not going to make it.
David: Yeah, right. And so they're going to be in exile. But then we get this promise that while they're in exile, God is going to do something new. And, and actually, I should say this before— the reason they go to exile and the reason they will inevitably go to exile is because of something very important that is said. It's because God has not yet given them circumcised hearts. He's not given them hearts to obey, and he's not yet given them ears to hear.
Seth: You're reading this, you're going to get to the end of the cursing section in Deuteronomy chapter 28, and you're going to hit— and you're going to hear about the exile, you're going to hear about all these things. And then chapter 29, you're going to start here. There's like a switch that's kind of imperceptible to me as I read it, and even as David said as he read it. But Moses stops talking about the covenant that just ended. He's not— no longer talking about the covenant that God made with him on Mount Sinai and at the foot of the Jordan River. He's talking about a covenant, a partnership, a deal he's making with his people in the future, like a new thing that he's going to do. And he's going to call— like, what's been foreshadowed so far is that they're not going to obey. And what he says in chapter 29, verse 4, he says, but to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. That should sound familiar because Jesus says those same words. But the point he's making is, the reason I'm foreshadowing disobedience for you, the reason I'm predicting disobedience for you, is because you don't have a heart to obey this command, right? You don't intuit these things. You all right?
David: And he even proves it to them. He's like, if you don't believe me, think about this. You've walked around the wilderness for 40 years. And did you notice that your sandals didn't wear out? Like, that shouldn't have happened. How did you eat the whole time? Miraculous food from heaven. Like, do you remember that? How did you even get to the wilderness in the first place? I freed you from Egypt with an outstretched arm and mighty— and mighty acts. What about that time when you went against that king that should have killed you and you won a way underhanded battle? Like, how did that happen? And yet you still doubt, you still sin, you still disobey. He's like, why do you think that keeps happening? It's because you don't have a heart that can believe. You don't have ears that can hear. You don't have eyes that can see. And so when we read these old stories, like, how did Israel keep doing this? Like, are they stupid? It's like, no, they were spiritually enabled. Like, they could not. Believe. They could not see what God was doing. They could not hear his words.
Seth: Moses is picking up on is something that is hidden throughout the Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, like, stories, is that the law on its own cannot bring new hearts to love God, to love God and his ways. There's actually this really fascinating thing after talking about exile for a while in 29:24. He talks about— or 23, he starts talking about Sodom and Gomorrah. And so what's fascinating is how that story is reversed. So in the Old Testament, you can kind of get the idea that, well, God was saving his people and he was destroying the wicked nations. But what he does here is he said, what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah will happen to you too. So all of a sudden if you're listening, reading carefully, you say, okay, so it's not just being a part of God's like ethnic geopolitical nation that makes me safe. It's by having a new heart that makes me safe. It says the people will say it's because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord. Like, that's actually what brings justice or brings you blessing, is not being merely a part of the nation of Israel but having a heart that loves God's commands and does them intuitively, not with the addition of more and more and more laws. Right.
David: And this is something that God says he's going to have to come and bring you, and he'll come and do this for you while you're in exile. He'll come and give you this new heart that will cause you to follow his law, and you'll come back into the land and you'll be obeying God. You'll be intuiting it from your heart because you love him and you have affections toward him because he gave you those abilities. And as you do that, the blessings will come back and everything will be new and the new Eden will come and everything we've been hoping for will happen. But not because you did something to earn it or bring it about, but because God earned it for you and brought it about within you from the inside out, not from the outside in.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah. I think it's really interesting. You kind of touched on it barely. Was— is this idea about like when Israel is cursed, the nations will come and they'll say like, why did this happen?
Seth: Why did—
David: why did the God of Israel abandon her in such a way? You know, and, and like, it ends up being a testimony to the power of God, the trueness of the word, like the reliability of a covenant. It ends up like— I just— it was an interesting paradigm for me that God's punishment is actually a positive witness to those who see it.
Seth: The nations of the world should look at Israel's disobedience and say, oh, God doesn't have just one people. Any who trust in the covenant, any who trust in God, who love him and obey his commands, can be part of God's people and will be saved from his justice.
David: Right. Which something I can't— oh man, I can't remember where it is. Maybe you, you do, but we read it. It's in this passage, and he says like, this is the covenant I speak to you, but not just those present, uh, but yeah, all people.
Seth: I don't remember that.
David: Like, and it's like But you remember reading that today. Anyway, it's just like, I think they're in— even in the text here, we get that, um, we get that said pretty explicitly, that the covenant acted out in Israel is supposed to be an illustration, a living picture of our need for God and our inability to be right with him on our own.
Seth: Need for a new way for God to relate to his people. People. Like, God cannot simply relate to his people through laws. Like, it will not work. It's foreshadowed that it won't work. It's being prophesied by Moses that it won't work. And now in chapter 29, he begins prophesying what will work: a new covenant. So, yes, a new covenant where new hearts are given. Or he, he even says, like, um, circumcised hearts. And the Lord your God will circumcise your hearts, yeah, and the heart of your offspring. So that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
David: Yeah. And so, like, so the people— I mean, this bears out.
Seth: Let's play it out.
David: The people go to exile, they disobey, they're kicked out of the land. There's the, there's the Assyrian captivity, there's the Babylonian captivity. The temple is destroyed and profaned. And then the people are in exile waiting for God, and the prophets are speaking to them. You hear Jeremiah's words, you know, speaking over them, you hear Ezekiel's words speaking over them in the exile. And both of them tap into this section of Deuteronomy. And what do they say? They say God is going to come again. He's going to bring you back in the land. He's going to give you a new covenant, right? He's going to— in that covenant, he's going to give you a new heart, and you're going to— he's going to cause you to obey his commands. Like they're saying, like, God is going to do this thing.
Seth: And And then I was going to say, yeah, it's going to, it's going to work and it's going to work.
David: It's going to work.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not going to be like the old one that did not.
Seth: Verse 11 of chapter 30. For this commandment that I command you today is not too far for you or too hard for you, neither too far off. Now, when I read that, I was like, wait, wait, wait. The whole book of Deuteronomy has been cueing me up to believe that all these commands are too hard for Israel. But that's not the command he's talking about. He's not talking about the commands of the law, right? He's talking about the command of God to make us— give us new hearts.
David: The new covenant.
Seth: And he says, it's not in heaven that you should say, who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us that we may go and hear it and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea that you say, who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us that we may hear and do it? But the word is very near you. It is in And he's using present tense, but he's meaning future tense. It is in your mouth and in your heart so that you can do it. What he's saying is in the Old Covenant, Moses had to go up into the heavens on Mount Sinai to hear the law of the Lord.
David: To go up. Yeah. The people said, go up and you talk to God and tell us what he will say. And whatever he says, we'll do.
Seth: Moses, like it's the Old Covenant, you had to go up in the mountain. In the Old Covenant, you had to cross the sea. You had to cross the sea, right, in order to get the commands.
David: Yep.
Seth: But the New Covenant—
David: yep—
Seth: neither of those things will happen. Actually, God will descend off of the Holy Place. He will walk across the waters of the Sea of Galilee, and he will make new hearts in you. He will do what the Old Covenant, the Old Law, never could. He will make the law easy for you to obey and bring you the blessing that you've been unable to achieve consistently so far in your history.
David: That's right. And that's because Jesus comes along and disarms the curses of the law by bearing them in his own body and gives us the blessing that it ultimately promised. And I'm not talking about now the, the spiritual or physical blessings of prosperity. I'm talking about the ultimate end of the law. The purpose of the covenant was to dwell with God, and what Jesus earns for us on the cross is the ultimate indwelling of God, like the God that was in the land and in the tabernacle that people were supposed to try to keep themselves pure so they could stay with and near. That God comes inside of us, and the new covenant comes with his Holy Spirit indwelling us as the new tabernacle. And so it's God working within us that causes us to do these things and makes it, quote unquote, easy for us to do it, right?
Seth: Let's move here to Romans 10. So Paul— yeah, literally quotes this passage of Deuteronomy to explain why Jesus is better than the law. And he said— he talked— Moses writes about a righteousness that is based on the law. So let's just pause right there. What is a righteousness based on the law? What do you— I think what he means is like, how do you get communion with God? How do you be at one with the Lord? How do you—
David: by obeying the law.
Seth: Do the commandments, right? And you will be with God. But the righteousness based on faith, that's what he talks about, is that's what he says. We're one with God not by doing works of law, not by doing the right thing, but by faith. Does not say who will ascend into heaven. It does not say who will cross the sea. The word is near you and in your mouth and in your heart. And he says, because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. He uses the words of Deuteronomy 30 to tell us how we're saved right now. We're not saved— we're not— we don't become one with God, we don't get eternal life or the blessed life by doing the works of the law, but by trusting and believing that Jesus rose from the dead.
David: That's right. Yeah. And it just says anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Yeah, that's the condition, is like you look to the Mount of Cursing and you see Jesus dying for your sins on it, and you call on him. You say like, that is my curse.
Seth: And what did he say about how the nations of the world are supposed to look to Israel and see the way that they can be saved? The very next verse in Romans 10 says, and there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing the riches on all who call on him. The riches of the mountain of blessing are available to every nation and every people because Jesus goes onto the mountain of cursing for us.
David: Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, I would say as we close, like, I even thought this as I was reading today, I was like, man, I know that probably 100% of our listeners are pretty deep Christians, you know, if you're gonna listen to, uh, you know, an hour-long podcast on on 3 chapters in Deuteronomy. But I would say that either if this is for you, or just you need the urgency to share the gospel with someone else, like, this should cause urgency in you that the curses are real. Like, and, and Jesus ratchets, ratchets that up and says hell is real, and he will judge, and it will delight him to judge, and it will be good to judge. And yet there is this easy solution. There's good news. And it's look to the Mount of Cursing and see Jesus dying for your sins. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Like, trust in him, love him. He wants your heart. He wants to give you a new heart.
Seth: Non-believers don't think about the fact they need a righteousness based on the law, but they functionally believe it. Like, righteousness— oh, definitely substitute righteousness for like communion with God, communion with the divine, or just a sense of wholeness. Like, like, call whatever you want— that sense of wholeness, sense of satisfaction, union with the divine, whatever, like self-actualization, fulfillment, contentment. And it is always based on some sort of law. Follow the Four Noble Truths. Follow the— like, uphold the Five Pillars of Islam. Be true to yourself often enough and loudly enough, and you will feel whole. But what the book of Deuteronomy should prove to every non-believer is that all those laws you make for yourself to feel okay, to feel as if you're self-actualized or one with the divine or whole, have probably consistently fallen short for you. You've felt the fact that they always fail, and your life seems to be more like curses than it seems to be like blessing. Scripture comes to you and says—
David: that's so good—
Seth: don't say to yourself, what guru has ascended the mountain to tell me like what I need to do?
David: Yep. Or how can I do it myself?
Seth: Ascend the mountain to find one of the 100 paths of the mountain to do it myself? God has come down in Jesus. Yeah, like he has crossed the waters and he is so good.
David: I love it. Oh man, well, it's crazy. Only one more episode in Deuteronomy after this.
Seth: Relieving but also kind of sad.
David: Yeah, it's also like a really cool ending to a long journey we've been on through the Torah together, um, which is fun. So, um, yeah, well guys, next week we'll wrap up Deuteronomy with chapters 31 to 34. Um, thank you so much for listening.
Seth: Please like us on, um, iTunes and rate us, or rate us, rate us on iTunes and leave us a comment.
David: I think you can like— what is it?
Seth: What is liking? Subscribing. It's how you subscribe, how other people hear about Jesus and all of scripture.
David: Find out.
Seth: It's how, like, uh, yeah, we would love that. Yeah.
David: And yeah, leave us comments. We read every comment. We love them. They, they make our day. So, all right guys, well, thank you so much for listening. We will see you again soon.
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