Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus. And this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a Biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We're so thankful that you're joining us today. Seth, how are ya?
Seth: I'm doing great. And I want to talk to you about magic today.
David: Oh, magic?
Seth: But not magic tricks, but like actual sorcery.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: Because like it's in our text and so it's in our text because there's all this like sorcery that's happening.
David: And so what text are we in first before we jump to Harry Potter?
Seth: We're in Deuteronomy chapter 17 and 18.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it is God's laws for priests, kings, and prophets. Okay. Yeah, prophets. I follow that. And during the final section, which I get I guess we'll get to it at the end. It's a discussion of like all these like necromancy and sorcery and divination. So here's my question. Is magic real? Oh. Like does magic actually exist? Is there like power inherent in the world that you can manipulate or is it just demons?
David: Oh goodness. Okay. Uh, oh man. I don't know. So I was gonna say, I don't know. I was gonna say, I thought you— I thought it was going to be like just that open-ended question. You're like, so is magic real? I was like, yeah, but I think it's like the whole— like the Holy Spirit and angels and demons. It's a spiritual realm.
Seth: It's spiritual realm. Or is it right? Because the assumption is like there's actually something inherent within the trees and the newt's eyes and the, you know, the dust of like of something that when you mix it in the right thing with the right incantation, you're awakening the force of the earth. Right, to enact a spell. So is it that those things are actually— those things actually work and Christians, Jews are not supposed to do them? Or are they just ways in which demonic forces have deceived people, uh, and then they, you know, it's a way to manipulate people? I mean, I don't think it matters, but I've been thinking about that a lot.
David: I feel like it kind of matters. Maybe not for like right now, but I feel like it kind of matters. But I mean, I would say the latter sounds I had like a 4-hour debate with somebody about this. What? Really?
Seth: Yeah. One of the elders on our church staff, he was like, no, magic's real. It's really, really real. And I was like, I don't know if that's true. Anyway, it was a whole thing. And so I wanted to bring you in on this. Man.
David: So is there any way to land that plane or you just— Oh no, no, no. Leaving everyone out there in mystery.
Seth: That was like, hey guys, start thinking about that, podcast listeners, and come to us with your answers. With your answer.
David: We definitely need help on that one. Okay, so, um, what we just came out of, like, talking about all these feasts and all these cycles of 7, right? And then, um, and then it kind of turns at the end of chapter 16 to start talking about appointing judges and officers in your towns, uh, and then, like, and then we get some laws that are like, well, what are they enforcing? And why do we need laws? And then we get more rules about judges and priests, and then we get more laws, uh, and like laws about kings. And so anyway, like, what's— is there a helpful way to understand why Moses started talking about leaders in this way and in this space?
Seth: And well, the very last thing about in Deuteronomy 16 is the, um, you shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you and enact justice. They should not pervert justice and they should be fair. So really, I think he's just signaling for us, like, okay, we've moved on from talking about feasts and cycles of 7 to the enacting of justice. And the enacting of justice includes the leadership of Israel. So you have actual judges, you have priests who are interpreting God's commands, you have kings who are supposed to enact God's can— uh, laws in an entire kingdom, and prophets who are supposed to help you discern God's will in a particular situation. So like, as the— as the— he's just turning a page and say, okay, we've talked about feasts in the calendar. Now we're talking about leadership in Israel, priests, kings, and prophets. And some of them, I think—
David: I think it also does kind of make sense, though, because like what happened in these feasts and what happened in these big cycles of 7, justice was enacted in a really big way, right? Like the poor were fed in the feasts, the widows were fed in the feasts, the Levites were cared for in the feasts, and then slaves were released and land was returned and all these things. Like the cycles of 7 Sabbath day rest, the times of remembering what God has done in the feast, that was a time to celebrate justice and to do justice. And so that was like these crystallized times for justice to reign. But like, what about Monday? You know, just a normal Monday, right? How does justice function? And I think we're starting to like lean into that here.
Seth: That's exactly right. That's okay. That's a helpful way to—
David: that's helpful for me.
Seth: Continue the story. It's like, okay, how do you enact this justice? You need rulers to enact this justice daily. Yeah, that's helpful.
David: Okay, cool.
Seth: Uh, so the first thing we actually see in 17 is about forbidden forms of worship, which is kind of a variation on a theme that we've already talked about here. We've already talked about forbidden forms of worship earlier on in Deuteronomy is what I mean.
David: Oh, okay. Yep. Not like recently, but not recently. Yeah, we did talk about, yeah, forbidden worship and even we did talk about like the death penalty even and stuff like that, which is repeated again here. So, okay. So familiar territory. All right, so if you missed that, go back. I get it.
Seth: Yes. And so the first thing we see in Deuteronomy 8 is legal decisions made by priests and judges.
David: Deuteronomy 17:8.
Seth: 17:8. Legal decisions made by priests and judges. And it says this: If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, or one kind of legal right or another, or one kind of assault and another, any case within your towns, it is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go to the place the Lord your God will choose, and then you will find justice there. One thing and the place your Lord, Lord your God will choose. I feel like that should be the actual name of the Book of Deuteronomy. Like it's— yes, you see it everywhere.
David: It's really funny. And that is referring to the temple.
Seth: I think so, because it says, and you shall come to the Levitical priest. Right. And to judge who is in the office in those days.
David: And there were Levitical priests in different towns.
Seth: There were.
David: But I think this— the place the Lord your God will choose, we hear that over and over again as saying like, don't make sacrifices in your own towns or in your own houses. Make it, you know, sojourn, travel to the place the Lord your God will choose, which is where the temple ended up being.
Seth: And if you remember to back in Exodus when God appoints 70 elders over the nation of Israel, or there's this huge organizational structure that includes 70 elders and there's also like member, like leaders of hundreds and leaders of tens underneath them. So I think the idea is like in similar way we have like lower courts, upper courts, and then like the Supreme Court. You have a system of justice where if you can't figure out the conflict between you and your neighbor on your own, you should go to your clan leader. And if he can't, like, mediate the conflict, you go to your tribal leader. And if he can't, you go to the elder of your situation. And if you can't— if he can't mediate it, you go to the highest court of the land, the priest in the temple, in the place that your Lord God shall choose, Jerusalem. Yeah. Right.
David: Yeah, I think I read one commentator saying that, that it was like, oftentimes the head of a household would be the lower court, you know, and then you had a leader of 10. And then, yeah, and then a leader of 10, like, then they would go up and like the leaders would be over like a town, and then you'd have the elders of the city, in a sense. And yeah, like, yeah, so it's really interesting. But he says that the Lord will also appoint a judge. I'm, I'm very confused about this, actually.
Seth: Right.
David: Where it's like, so go to the Levitical priests and the judge or the judge that God will appoint. And I know there's a book called Judges that we'll get to.
Seth: Yes.
David: And we read about some of these judges, but like, like were they just appointed, handpicked by God, pulled out of oblivion? And like, how did their role differentiate from Levites? Did they, they, are they just making decisions, but they also like lead militaries in? I'm very confused about judges in the Old Testament.
Seth: I don't really know. Uh, I do know that Moses acts like a judge and the priests seem to act like judges, but there also seems to be room for like legal experts, but which would have been just people who are expert in the Torah, um, as well. So it's like those, so like, what are they judging? They're judging a certain situation against the law that God has described. And so my assumption is that you probably couldn't be a judge without being a priest. And so maybe that's like, there are priests, but there's also some priests who are particularly gifted in like, um, understanding like a little bit more deeply the judicial code, um, and interpreting it. I mean, we've said it multiple times, like the 613 laws that we have recorded in the Torah are not all the laws that are necessary to run a nation. Like this is too few to actually mediate all conflicts. Like these are selected for narrative purposes, not to give a country all the laws it needs for every single situation. So you'd probably need even among the priests judicial experts, right?
David: Yeah, yeah, probably.
Seth: So that's speculation. I don't know. Okay. Okay.
David: So I'm trying to like look around here and it says in 6:18, it says, you shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns. So they, they, they are the ones, the people are the ones voting on it somehow, voting on it somehow, some kind of semi-democratic system of appointing like town judges. And then in 8, you know, 17:8 and on, then in verse, like, let's see here, in 9, it says, and you shall come to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is in office in those days. And so I'm like, how does— is this judge also an elected official? Of the people, like, or like, if that's how judges are picked in towns, is that how they're picked here? Because like, there's a differentiation between Levitical priests and the judge. And so like, maybe you need both. Yeah, because I'm also thinking about like, a Levitical priest couldn't be a woman, right? Is that right?
Seth: Well, Deborah was a judge.
David: That's why I'm saying Deborah's a judge. That's the whole point I'm making is like, Deborah was a judge in the Book of Judges, then, then they can't be Levitical priests as well. If a Levitical priest couldn't be a woman, which I'm trying to remember if that's the case. Because it's all— yeah, because earlier in Numbers, I think it's— he talks about it has to be a son, your sons, you know, from this age to that age.
Seth: Priests, we do know that priests have to be male. But we don't know if all judges have to be male.
David: Well, we know that they— they're not.
Seth: The judges aren't?
David: Well, at least because of Deborah in Judges.
Seth: Right, right, right. Exactly right. But is she the same type of judge that's being appointed here?
David: I mean, she fits the cycle, you know. But she also kind of takes the place of a weak-handed Barack. Not Obama, but, you know, the biblical Barack. I think anyway, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves in the Book of Judges, but I've just always been curious about this. Like, it's a strange little role that just like pops up and it's like mentioned, and then we don't really see it again until the Book of Judges, and it's not really explained there either. So I've just always been kind of puzzled by the role of—
Seth: I mean, if you think like a priest's job specifically is to like mediate between you and God, like go as a go-between between God, he offers like your sacrifice, he, he procures like, he offers forgiveness to you. And then a judge has a more technical job in that sense. He's not like atoning, he's not, uh, offering like a religious service but like a legal one. So maybe it's just like a distinction. But actually, at the end of the day, I think it's kind of like a distinction without a difference here for our purposes because they're treated as one. And verse 12 says Um, this: the man who acts presumptuously by not obeying the priest, and presumably the judge as well because they're lumped together here, who stands and ministers there before the Lord your God or the judge, that man shall die. So whether you're a judge or you're, you're a priest, you're actually speaking for God. Do you see what I'm saying there? Like, if you disobey the verdict of a judge or a priest you're actually disobeying something from God himself.
David: I see what you're saying. I do think, though, that even with that little parenthetical that, that you just read, I think it does make a separation. So what I thought you were going to say was a priest stands before God and man, a judge stands between the law and man. Oh, and like, so I was like, that's interesting. And so that's why it says not obeying the priests who stand to minister, but they're before the Lord your God. Or the judge—
Seth: interesting—
David: who's not in the same position as a priest, he stands with the law. I'm just curious, like, that might be a helpful distinction, is that could be a priest stands between man and God, and a judge stands between man and the law.
Seth: So at the end of the day, though, what we're saying is that regardless of whether it's between the law and men and God and man, it's actually kind of the same function. Like, you are mediating between the word and commands and decisions of God about your moral and like moral life in Israel. And so you need somebody to be operating that position. And if you disobey that person, it is as if you are worshiping a false god. It is as if you're rebelling against God himself and not just a human judge and a human priest, because you shall die. Like, the punishment for disobeying one of God's representatives, whether like a judicial one or priestly one, is the same as the blasphemy laws that we just read as well. Like, if you It's a rebellion against God. And the reason why that's interesting is because Jesus himself is our priest, and Jesus himself is God's temple. So when Jesus, as a priest occupying God's temple space, makes commands, they have the same weight as the priests right here. Does that make sense?
David: I think so. You might have to say it another way.
Seth: Okay, let me say it another way. Here when a priest is in God's temple or a judge is in God's chosen place, the commands that he gives, the edicts that he offers, the verdicts that he gives carry the weight of God's voice himself.
David: Right.
Seth: Okay. Disobey God's voice, you die. Jesus is the same. Jesus is God's priest. He is God's judge. But he is also the temple itself.
David: Right.
Seth: So when he makes statements, when he speaks, He is literally speaking God's words, and they carry the same weight as like a direct proclamation of revelation from God. Like, he is a— he is a legal representative, right, of Israel. Right.
David: And so is the point that you're making then that— because it's not only a comparison, obviously there's a huge connection point here with a lot of stuff that Jesus said and the disciples taught, like that if, if this judge or priest gives a decree or ruling based on the Torah, based on God's authority, and someone doesn't obey it, being presumptuous as the text says, then they are prescribed the death penalty. I mean, it's kind of, it's kind of like when Jesus comes and says, this is who I am, this is the gospel, this is the kingdom, these are my commands, obey me, follow me, trust me. Then those who don't, what does he say will happen to them? Like, they'll die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh.
Seth: Wow.
David: I think that just adds a new level of color to why Jesus, when he says that if you don't believe in me, if you don't trust me, if you don't abide in me, then this is what will happen. It adds a new level of color and history and depth to that statement because it's like, I am the priest, I am the temple, I say the words of God, therefore you must obey them.
Seth: I think I normally hear Jesus's teachings as, that was fun. Like, that was interesting. Um, like, but I don't think of them as verdicts.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like this, like, yeah, this, this text calls us to read like the teachings of Jesus as like verdicts. Like, this is what you must do or experience the consequences of a guilty verdict. Yeah. Yeah.
David: I mean, another way to talk, another way to think about that is, and, and just so our listeners know, we aren't making a huge stretch here. Jesus is called the judge multiple times in the New Testament. And so this is, he is the consummate judge. And so when I think, when I think about the judge being the arbiter between the law and man, I mean, I'm immediately thinking about like the Sermon on the Mount, you know, and how he is saying like, you thought this is what it meant, but really I'm after your hearts, you know, you thought it was just about committing adultery, but really this is the true intent of the law. He's perfectly bringing us the meaning and the correct verdict of what the law is saying into our lives.
Seth: Because you can imagine people coming to that mountain saying, hey, me and my wife have a strained relationship. What do we do when the laws for divorce aren't clear here? Yeah, my money. I don't know what to do with my money. God, like, what do I do with this? What is righteous here? And like, they're bringing the people up, listening to the sermon, have brought with them cases they need verdicts on. And then Jesus offers them on the Sermon on the Mount. That's—
David: yeah, yeah. And then what's crazy is he brings these, these verdicts, these rulings. He gives us this way of the kingdom, this way of life. And we break it, right? We completely break it. And he takes the death penalty for us on the cross, rises from the dead, and offers a new infallible verdict. It is finished. You are forgiven. You are free. Like, that is crazy that the judge who should be standing arbitrating the word of God to us, saying you have fallen short of the glory of God, instead comes to us and says, but I have paid the play. I have paid the price. You are forgiven. Like that's what the judge's new verdict is. Like, that's amazing.
Seth: It's amazing. It's good news.
David: It's good news. Hey, everyone. David Bowden here. Just during a brief break, I wanted to quickly remind you that Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization. We give hundreds of resources away every day to thousands of people just like you. And if you enjoy our resources like this podcast and want to help us continue creating more of them, we would ask you to please go to SpokenGospel.com to make a tax-deductible donation to our ministry. So thank you so much for thinking about being a donor to us. If you are already a donor, I just wanted to say thank you so much for your support. Okay, let's get back to the conversation. Okay, so we've talked about the judges. The next, I guess, authoritative figure talked about here is the office of king. And God provides them a provision here. He says, when you come into the land, if you want to, and you want to, you want to have a king put over you, you can set one over you. But here are some guidelines for this king.
Seth: And the first guideline is you 'Set a king whom the Lord your God will choose.' All right, so this is not democratic.
David: This is theocratic.
Seth: It's not democratic. And I think, I think even here they're going to want to appoint a king. They might appoint a king, but the goal here still is that people would hope in God as their true king, and the king acts as God's represent— like ruling, authoritative representative. So the hope here is never that people would like turn away from God and trust the king instead. No, but they would trust God as their king, right? That's important to note because in 1 Samuel, yes, when Israel does appoint their king, they actually break this law because it says they rejected me as their king. So like, whenever Israel goes to make their own king, like God says that whenever Israel goes to make their own king, they do it out of the wrong motive. And so I think you have to make sure you read into this text the motive that God has here. I am your king and I appoint my representatives, even when they're called king as well. Like, I am King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and this is my— you still worship me alone. Does that make sense? Right?
David: Yeah, it does. And I think something else we should see at the outset of this, this king passage is he even notices a motivation in them for why they would set up a king over them. He says, if you go into the land that you're going to dwell in and you say, I want to set up a king over us like the nations that are around me. I think it was like just 2 or 3 episodes ago, we had, we had a part of Deuteronomy talked about, and we named the episode Israel's Distinctiveness. Like there's this whole theme of Deuteronomy, which is be— don't be like the nations, like clean and unclean food, and don't practice this way like they do. And then it's like, but there's going to be this time that Yahweh foresaw that he's like, You're going to want a king and you're going to want to be like the rest of the nations. And he throws them a bone there. He's like, I'll let you do that. And he's like, right, make sure you do it in this way or else it's going to be real bad for you. Which, like you said, Samuel warns them about and everything bad happens.
Seth: So we should just note then one really distinct aspect of the king of Israel is that he could read and write. So like, not all kings, not all rulers of nations were literate.
David: Mm.
Seth: And one of the first things that the Bible demands of its kings is that they would be literate and be a scribe and a scholar in the Torah. It's actually the last thing they mentioned. The last thing he mentions is that he needs to write down his own copy of the Torah, read it, meditate on it daily, daily, and that he is supposed to rule from his submission to God's law. Right. And so like, so the fact that one, he writes it down and is literate and he's a scribe and a scholar is fascinating.
David: It is.
Seth: But like, again, it goes back to the original point. The more important point is like, he is under God's laws. Yeah, that's who he is.
David: That's right. And so this, and I think before we move on to some of these qualifications, because obviously Seth, I'm sure you're wanting to talk about how they play out in the history of Israel, but before we do, but before we do, um, One, one last thing I want to talk about here is the importance of the King of Israel. Like, it becomes a very important thing in the redemptive history, the story of Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because they elect a king and God sets up David as the king. Right. And anoints him and says, like, one, like, one of your descendants will sit on a throne forever. And he works through the King of Israel to bring about Jesus as this final figure. Of the final king. I just wanted to, like, in case people were like, why are we talking about laws, laws for the kings? Like, this is actually a really big deal that gets played out throughout the rest of the Old Testament into the New Testament. So I just wanted to highlight it here. So anyway, yeah.
Seth: And I would also say, if you, you've read the Torah with us, we've actually only experienced one king so far in, uh, the Torah, and it's Pharaoh. So Pharaoh's the only king that the Israelites have ever had.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So if you read the injunction, like what they're not supposed to— a king's not supposed to be like, you can hear like Pharaoh in the— you can hear Pharaoh in the background. It says this: you must not acquire many horses for himself or cause the people to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, you shall never return that way again. So like the first command about horses and going is about going back to Egypt. So there's gonna be a temptation in kingship to return to the ways of Pharaoh. And so he's like naming that right away. And like horses are like a cipher for that. Like, don't go amassing military strength like Pharaoh did. You're gonna start attempting to be like Pharaoh. Don't do that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You shall not acquire many wives for yourself, lest his heart turn away, nor shall he acquire himself much excessive silver and excessive gold.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So like, I think here too, like, you should be hearing a rebuke of Pharaoh. That's right. As also as you're like hoping for a good and better king.
David: Yep, definitely. And obviously, uh, the, the thing that you should be thinking as you read this with the whole Bible in your mind is about Israel's king after David, King Solomon. He does all of these things that you're not supposed to do.
Seth: All these things.
David: He acquires a ton of horses, literally buys them from Egypt, has like 700 wives, acquires tons of silver and gold, and ends up forgetting the Torah even though he was super wise.
Seth: So 1 Kings 3 to 11 kind of mentions all this, and the first thing he does is he marries an Egyptian woman, one of Pharaoh's daughters. Ephesians 5:13.
David: Come on, Solomon.
Seth: He enlists forced labor. It is the same word used of Pharaoh's slaves. 1 Kings 7, he builds a palace about twice as big for himself than he built for the temple, God's temple. In 1 Kings 10:14, he amasses 666 talents of gold every year. That's his annual income. And so 666 is like an important number in the Bible. I don't know if I'm supposed to read into like the Antichrist of Revelation back here, but 666 is, is kind of like a loaded number within—
David: it really is—
Seth: history. Yeah, that is— that much gold is fascinating, but it's also just a ton of gold. I think one talent is like 75 pounds.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So it's like, so it's like he's getting a massive amount of wealth coming in. He amasses 1,400 chariots with 12,000 horsemen.
David: Oh my God.
Seth: He imports specifically Egyptian horses in 1 Kings 10. And he has, as you said, 1,000 wives. Like Solomon.
David: Oh my God.
Seth: Does not follow this at all. And he ends up becoming Pharaoh. Like he becomes exactly like what this passage warned he would become. Like he becomes what the passage intended to prevent because he forgot God's law.
David: That's right. He did. Because the whole, the whole point of these things, these, these, these commands is to keep Israel's kings from becoming wicked, from turning their heart away from God, away from the law, and becoming tyrants like every other worldly king, every other worldly political ruler. And, um, And that's what makes Jesus as King coming, like, so beautiful, because he owns every horse, like, right? Like, yeah, like, he has the perfect bride, the, like, the bride of Israel, the bride of Christ. Like, I mean, I'm just thinking, like, he has all the wealth, and yet he comes and his heart cannot be turned away from Yahweh or his law. He's like this perfect king who can hold all power and all obedience all at once. It's amazing.
Seth: And Pharaoh too, like, acted as like a cipher for like demonic power, like oppressive, demonic, sinful power. So these laws are meant to prevent the king of Israel from becoming an oppressor, like from becoming like that cipher, that like symbol of sin that Pharaoh was. But when Jesus is God's chosen king, like he is a brother of Israel, like what's one of the things that he's supposed to be? A brother from— he's supposed to be from among your brothers, like a citizen of Israel. And Jesus is a citizen of Israel. He acquires no horses because his kingdom is not of this world. He will not return us to a yoke of slavery like Solomon did, but he will set us free from the bondage of sin and death. And not just, not just like Pharaoh symbolized death and sin, but he'll actually free us from death and sin. Like Jesus took no wife at all. He had no demonstrable wealth, and the law of God wasn't written by his hand. He didn't like write a copy of it. He was the law of God written like through his hand. Like he was the word of God itself. Like he embodied and incarnated what good kings could only attempt to be and tried to be. Like Jesus is the good king of Deuteronomy 17. He fulfills all of these things perfectly.
David: Wow, that's— wow, I have no words after that. I'm really blown away by that and just the beauty of Jesus and his goodness.
Seth: These are the things I wrote down this morning as I meditated.
David: Seth is showing me on the video that he did not just riff that off the top of his head.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, don't— no, never assume that I wrote these things.
David: He wrote these things down. That makes me— that does make me feel better. I thought you were just taken over by the Holy Spirit and you were just going for it.
Seth: I was when I was writing it.
David: You were when you were writing it, which is great.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Well, that's awesome. Well, let's wrap up there and we'll take one quick break, and then we'll hop into the last section about a new prophet like Moses.
Seth: So chapter 18 opens up with, uh, more laws for priests and Levites. We've talked about that a lot elsewhere, so we're not going to talk about that right now. We're going to skip straight to magic and sorcery and abominable practices. I was actually kind of confused for a while about why this was here. So you have this, you have this whole section which is about Israel's leadership, and in the middle you have this: You shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. No one who burns a son or daughter as an offering. No divination, no fortune telling, no omens, no sorcerers, no charmers, no mediums, no necromancers. No fortune tellers, no diviners, and you're supposed to kick them out of the land. So I was like, why are— why is this here? Yeah, so on one level, I think it's here because the priests of Israel are gonna be tempted to act like the priests of other nations. Like, the priests of other nations— the other nations had priests, and they used these types of practices. And I had to do a little work to figure out, like, well, what were those things trying to do? Like, what does necromancy accomplish? Like, what does divination accomplish? And what it is attempting to accomplish is to understand the will of the gods. Like, you are trying to interpret God's plan, right? And to act like— that is what astrology is. Like, let me plan my day according to the will of the stars. So what Israel will be tempted to do, the priests will be tempted to do, the prophets will be tempted to do, is to find out God's will through strange means.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They're going to be tempted to figure out God's will by forecasting the future through all these different ways. And God has a different plan. It's through his prophet. This is the first time a prophet's really described in the entire Bible, and it being backed up to like all these necromancy and divination laws should tell us that what a prophet does is he declares God's will for God's people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So God's people are not supposed to look to divination or divining rods or anything else. They're supposed to look to God's prophet to determine God's will.
David: Definitely. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to look at this abominable practice thing as a bridge, because it does— it also goes both ways directionally in the text. Because we've talked about like, how do we know what God's will is, what he wants, interpreting omens, those kinds of things? How do we make correct sacrifices? That's what the Levites were for that we just read about, right? And they're trying to burn their sons and daughters as offerings. It's like, no, the Levites would say don't do that. How do we know what's right and wrong? Well, go to the judges that are appointed that you're supposed to listen to. Don't practice divination. And then, and then like, but how do we know what's next and what's in the future? It's like, well, now we— now we're like, how do we hear from God? Do we acquire— do we inquire of the dead or use charms and mediums and necromancy? No, we use this prophet of God whom God will raise up. So I think it's really, really cool.
Seth: Even in judicial cases, like imagine it's a murder. One of the ways that you could determine who was innocent, who's guilty, is to conjure the dead to ask them who killed them. Like, that's like, right, like, that's— that would have been a practice that people, like, used in order to solve those cases. And God is saying, no, no, you don't do that. You refer to my law and you listen to my prophets.
David: Wow.
Seth: Those are your options. Yep. Is there—
David: what, what's like some kind of modern Is there a modern equivalent to this? Like, I was trying to think— I knew you would—
Seth: like, beyond like actual occult practices, which is—
David: which still exists.
Seth: Yep, which still exists, but it's not like mainstream. Like, astrology's probably—
David: I mean, it kind of like— it kind of is though. Like, what's the, the New Jersey Medium or whatever? Like, there's like all these shows with mediums and, you know, like fortune tellers, Paranormal Activity. Yeah, Paranormal Activity stuff. Totally. And so, I mean, we definitely still have this kind of stuff. And people, people go to strange sources to try to find out, like, you know, is my mom still proud of me? You know, what happened to my aunt? Is she okay? You know, is my future going to be secure? And so like, I know I have never felt tempted to like get into astrology or, you know, what are they called, horoscopes or anything like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But I know it's like a normal thing that a lot of people do.
Seth: So anyway, I just think one way to take it down from there to like make it more modern, it's like, how do modern people try to determine the will of God? Like, how, when we need to come to make decision— important decisions, do we determine what is right and what is wrong? And so you could actually probably point to like the legal system of the country that you live in. So for us, it's the States. And to whatever extent that they're actually building precedent not off of God's laws, but the laws of men, I think it would probably fall under the same condemnation. Like, it's actually— you're actually divining what is right and wrong in a particular case, not based on God's prophet or God's law, but on man's law and man's interpretation of a particular set of facts or circumstance or whatever else. That is probably a little— that's probably too, like, blunt. That's probably not as like stark as I'm making it, but I think that it still stands. A lot of laws are based off biblical principles. Do not steal. Like you— like, and there's like hundreds of laws about stealing and what stealing is and what stealing is not. There's a lot of precedent that's not directly derived from Scripture. So like there's a lot of gray area there. But when you do start making laws or decisions that are not found in God's command or go contrary to it, you're actually practicing a form of divination. I think that's probably what the Bible would say.
David: Yeah. The other thing I was thinking of was philosophy is another way we determine what's right and what's wrong. You know, whether it's like what causes the most, the most good or averts the most evil, you know, if we're doing some kind of, you know, moral system of ethics, you know, I think we've developed those or what's true for me, you know, what's, what's who am I in and of myself is kind of the question that our age asks. Right.
Seth: Yeah, like, like following your heart, right, can be a form of divination. Like, it— like, that's— that is probably a really good example. Like, following your heart, believing in yourself, as the new— as the new Elsa song says, Frozen song says, like, yes, um, step into your power.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like, there is— there is like— there is a way that we can curve inward to determine God's will for our life, or the actions that we should take, or the lifestyles that we adopt. That's actually a form of charming medium sorcery and necromancy, although we wouldn't call it by those terms. Like, we'd call it self-actualization.
David: Yes.
Seth: Expressive individualism. But that's actually a form of determining God's will for our life apart from reference to God's law and God's prophet.
David: Oh yeah, I think that's right on. And so what's the solution then? The Lord— verse 15 of chapter 18— the Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers. It is to him you shall listen.
Seth: Yeah. And I think that this passage— because I thought at first he was referring to Joshua, right? Like, this was going to be, oh, the next prophet is Joshua. Moses is about to die. Joshua's the next prophet. Then you have Isaiah, then you have Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You have this line of prophets.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: But I actually don't think that's what's happening. That's what I thought at first, because at the very end of the book of Deuteronomy, in chapter 34:10, Yes. Um, it actually says there has never been a prophet like Moses that spoke to God face to face.
David: That's right.
Seth: So I think you're actually supposed to understand this text like Moses wrote it to be intended, like, until the Messiah comes, right? There is actually no other prophet like me, right? Like, there will be one like me, but not until the Messiah comes.
David: That's right. I know, I completely agree. Yeah, it says to this day, yeah, a prophet like Moses has still not risen up. Yeah, at the end of—
Seth: Joshua probably wrote that little— that's right, right there. It's like Moses says it it here. And then Joshua reflecting on Moses's life and says, there's never been one like him either. And I'm not it either.
David: I'm not.
Seth: There is this like messianic Jesus-centered— they didn't know Jesus's name at that point, but like this is forward pointing to Jesus specifically as the prophet from God.
David: That's right. He is the prophet like Moses. And if you— I mean, go back to our Exodus podcast if you haven't listened to them. If you're like, how is Jesus like Moses? In like every way.
Seth: In every way.
David: And then in all the ways that he's not are also really good too. And so like, he is definitely the consummate Moses. But why should we— we've kind of seen Jesus as King, right? We've seen him as Judge. But what about Prophet? Like Prophet, Priest, and King, you know, we've kind of— we've looked at all those except Jesus as Prophet. So like, why call Jesus a Prophet here?
Seth: Like, why should we—
David: why is it important for us to see Jesus as a Prophet?
Seth: Well, verse 18: And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. Like, God will enact justice. So Peter quotes this at his sermon at Pentecost in Acts 3. So one reason why you should pay attention to this is you won't understand Acts 3 if you don't understand this passage right here. And Peter's saying that God— Jesus is God's appointed prophet. And he doesn't say, I myself will require it of him. He says, I will cut you. He will cut you off. Like, you'll be disinherited from the people of God. So you need to understand Acts 3. Do you have other things that you want to say about why this is important? Well, I mean, I just—
David: I'm just curious about the concept as a whole of Jesus as the prophet of God in whom is the word of God. Like, I'm just— I'm like, he is the— he is the word of God. God put his word in his mouth.
Seth: John 12.
David: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Seth: Spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say how to say it. So, you know, like Jesus understands himself this way. He definitely himself as a prophet.
David: Definitely. So Jesus, you know, went around living and speaking prophetically. He was the voice of the will of God. And so like when we want to know like what, what is God's will? What does he want from me? Like what's next in life? What's coming down the pike? Like all these questions are answered in the prophet Jesus, right? And I think, I think even for me, when I hear Jesus is a prophet, I immediately back off and I'm like, whoa, that's Islam's claim, you know? I'm like, they try to belittle his role as Son of God by saying, well, he's a prophet of God, you know? But we're not, we're not saying that this is like a demotion from Son of God. He's the Son of God who's also a prophet of God. And so anyway, I just think it's like, well, it's interesting.
Seth: That's helpful.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Well, the next verse is about what are, what is a false prophet.
David: Oh, right. Yes.
Seth: And so the way that you determine a false prophet from A true prophet is whether or not their predictions come true. And so I think if you are having conversations with Muslims, you can start talking about the prophecies that Jesus made in the New Testament about the destruction of the temple that came true. They— although they might agree, they might agree with that, and they say like, he was a true prophet, but not the one and only prophet, the ultimate prophet. But I think that the final verse is super interesting. He says, you need not be afraid of him. It's like apparently false prophets bring with them fear.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I was trying to figure out why, like, why does a false prophet nor why would the assumption be fear? Does that make sense? Like, why would I be afraid when a false prophet starts speaking? Because he's like prophesying doom and gloom.
David: Or maybe, or it could even be like fear in Deuteronomy is, is this reverential allegiance. You know, we've seen the fear of the Lord being a key concept that, that belongs to Yahweh alone. And so someone who's a false prophet comes, they're trying to accrue a following to themselves. And so whether they are preaching gloom and doom in order to scare people into allegiance, or they're telling them what their itching ears want to hear, you know, they're trying to gain followers for themselves. So it could be reverence, it could be fear. It's like, don't bow the knee to them. They don't know what they're talking about if their predictions don't come true.
Seth: Then this makes so much more sense then of Jesus. So in Jesus, in John 12:49, he says, I have not spoken on my own, but only the words of the Father has given me, um, and has sent me to and commanded me what to say and how to say it. And the very next verse is, uh, I know that his words lead to eternal life. So the fear here is a reverential awe that a false prophet could bring life and peace Like, you will be tempted to follow false prophets because they're going to offer you a version of the good life or a new vision of what heaven and eternity and paradise might be like. There's actually only one prophet whose words lead to actual eternal life. Does that make sense? Like, so you're not supposed to fear the false prophet. Obey him, be afraid of his claims because he has no power to give you eternal life.
David: Right.
Seth: Jesus is saying, fear me, and I guarantee when you listen to me, the one prophet, you will inherit eternal life.
David: Yeah. Which I don't think is reading very much into Deuteronomy because at its outset and then continually the columns that hold this book up are, I set before you life and death. Now choose life. Like, this is what this is about. Fear the Lord and you will live. You know, if you fear these false prophets, you will die. They can't offer you life. I think the last thing I want to point out, at least on my end, I don't know if you have anything else. The last thing I'm just thinking about, this bridge between like necromancy and like inquiring of the dead and, you know, all interpreting all this stuff and then seeing Jesus as the prophet. I just think it's interesting that Jesus actually does go and inquire of the dead. Like he actually goes and speaks to the dead, you know, after being crucified. He actually goes and ransacks Sheol and actually goes and like, it kind of performs a bit of necromancy in a sense, because necromancers could like reanimate the, you know, the dead. And yeah, and like, that's what Jesus does. He actually does bring resurrection.
Seth: The reason you don't trust necromancers is because they're not going to do as well as Jesus. Like, Jesus is going to come and he's actually going to resurrect them from the dead. He's actually going to bring people into eternal life, and necromancers can't do that.
David: Yeah, I just have this vision in my head, uh, because I used to— I, I used to play Diablo 2 and Diablo 3.
Seth: You got me playing Diablo 3 at one point.
David: I did. Yeah. And they, we had a class called Necromancer and yeah, you could like raise a skeleton army from the dead.
Seth: I always fucked with that.
David: You did. I always did.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And you could have like an army of like 50 skeletons following you around, but they were like super weak and they were skeletons, you know, they didn't, they, they weren't like a, a person raised from the dead. They were just like this lame skeleton. And I'm like, that's the image of what a necromancer can do is like, they can make like a really weak one-hit point skeleton that bears no resemblance to the person he, he was in life. And Jesus instead gives us these new, full, glorified bodies. It's just, it's just interesting.
Seth: It is cool. I mean, I would— I mean, I wouldn't doubt that. I mean, Jesus knows the future perfectly. Don't go to a future fortune teller because God's prophet knows the future, right? And he will win. And particularly when it comes to like final judgment. So this is supposed to be read in the, like, the concept of justice.
David: Yes.
Seth: Don't divine, don't conjure up the dead to figure out a murder case. To enact justice. Trust Jesus alone. He will raise every dead man from his grave and enact perfect justice for all. Don't trust your weird tea leaves. Trust the one who created tea. Trust the one who like will not just resuscitate someone but resurrect them eternally. Like, trust him for justice. Not your own perceptions of what might be right or what might be wrong or what might be the best way to live your life.
David: Yeah, definitely. Well, that's great. Well, this has been fun looking at Jesus as priest, judge, king, and necromancer.
Seth: And necromancer.
David: That feels weird. I don't like that.
Seth: True and great necromancer.
David: Oh, that's weird. Oh, anyway, well guys, thanks for listening. We'll be back with, uh, another episode on Deuteronomy next week. Uh, until then, enjoy reading Deuteronomy. I guess be thankful that we have a perfect judge and king and prophet and priest in heaven, and we'll see you next week.
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