Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus. And this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a Biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We're glad you're joining us. Seth, how are you?
Seth: I'm awesome, actually. We got a surprise 3 inches of snow last night.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: So I shoveled my driveway and I built a snowman and I baked cookies.
David: And that sounds very cozy.
Seth: I've had a great day.
David: Last weekend I was in Minneapolis and they got like feet of snow.
Seth: Feet.
David: It was crazy.
Seth: I—
David: it was terrifying. Like, snow banks past my head.
Seth: I mean, we are only like 4 hours north of Oklahoma City now, but like the amount of snow— much— how much more snow we've gotten since moving up here has been amazing. We've had like multiple snow days. It's awesome.
David: That's crazy. Well, we are in Deuteronomy 19 to 21 today. We've just come off of talking about the, like, authority figures of judges and kings and prophets and priests.
Seth: Exactly.
David: And now we're coming into a really much more difficult text, I would say, than the last couple of weeks, because this one is all about, like, death and blood and murder.
Seth: When people have died, what to do with their possessions. Yes. They're women.
David: Like, yeah, yeah, it's like, it's—
Seth: there's like a lot of little thorns.
David: Yeah. And so I, I think it would be helpful to bring this up here, and I apologize to all our listeners for not bringing this up earlier. Um, when I wrote the devotionals, the Spoken Gospel devotionals for Deuteronomy, um, I, I put this all throughout, and I have just not mentioned it since we've been recording these. I think it's really helpful. So, um, there comes a time in, in Deuteronomy, once the law section hits after the opening narrative, and Moses is basically walking through the Ten Commandments and giving larger explanations about how each of those Ten Commandments is going to be lived out in the Israelite society once they enter the Promised Land.
Seth: So what you mean then is that— so, honor the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and like that, right? Well, that's not the first commandment.
David: No, that's Jesus, right? Yeah, that's what Jesus said. Like, so for instance, for instance, honor the— like, keep the Sabbath day holy. Right? That maps on to what we looked at a few weeks ago with all the festivals and the 7 times 7 stuff.
Seth: That's exactly right. Yes.
David: And then last week, right, we looked at all the authority figures, which maps on to honor your father and mother, honor those above you, like judges and kings and priests as well. So like, what, what I— what he's showing us here is that these Ten Commandments are really like these principal placeholders under which a whole slew of godly character comes out. Like, we're meant to meditate on these Ten Commandments and apply them to all of life. And so where we are in the Ten Commandments today is thou shalt not murder. And that's why we get all this death stuff, right? Like all this stuff about murder and killing and war, manslaughter, blood, manslaughter. So that's why it feels like really concentrated and like, why did they put it all together? Well, it's because that's the part of the Ten Commandments that we're at now is thou shalt not murder.
Seth: So, oh, so this is one way to think about this then is like is either Moses's meditation or Israel's meditation or the priests and the judges' meditations on what it means not to commit murder. Like, okay, that doesn't just mean not like in anger killing somebody. It also means that has implications for the way we conduct our wars. And that has implications for who accidentally killed people. And that has implications for, um, the reasons why people murder each other, which makes that like that property boundary marker thing. Like people kill each other over land all the time. Like, you know, like, yes. That makes sense. Okay.
David: Yes. And so, and I think what it's meant to do is also go like, thou shalt not murder. Cool. But we're also going to war. So what do we do there? And oh, thou shalt not murder. But you also told me to do the death penalty for these different situations. Like, you know, it just, it kind of is meant to answer questions that people would have in trying to apply consistently this command. And so we get the nuances within it that God intended. Here in these laws. So anyway, that might be helpful categorically.
Seth: That's very, very helpful.
David: Yes. So kind of from a broad stroke overview, we kind of have some, some major themes happening here. We have the cities of refuge, which we've talked about now twice because it's in Exodus and Numbers or—
Seth: yeah. And it's— we already talked about in Deuteronomy 4 where they established the first 3 cities of refuge on the east of the Jordan. This is essentially talking about the 3 that you'll plant west of the Jordan. And then it also says, and you'll plant 3 more if you are obedient to the Lord and your borders extend. So it's kind of like giving provisions on what will happen as you— your kingdom continues to grow.
David: Right. And so, and maybe instead of trying to fly through the whole text, let's just kind of go in order here. So the cities of refuge, we've talked about before, but the brief version is that, that there were supposed to be these cities of refuge basically equidistant from each other. So that wherever you are, you are kind of like, nevermore, in range. Yeah, yeah. In range of a city of refuge. And so what it was for was if you, the, the example given here in Deuteronomy 19, if you are like chopping wood with an ax and unbeknownst to you, your ax handle is kind of, you know, crummy and the head of the ax flies off the stick and hurtles through the air and then lands in your neighbor's chest and kills him.
Seth: Yes.
David: That was an accident. And Uh, that neighbor's brother who's really mad at you now. Yeah. Who would be like his Avenger of Blood doesn't have the right to come and kill you because you accidentally killed his brother.
Seth: The least popular Avenger.
David: The least Avenger. I'm the Avenger. The Avenger of Blood.
Seth: He plays the Dark Avenger then. He does the dirty work for the Avengers. It's like gritty retelling of a Marvel universe. The Blood Avenger.
David: So funny. And so, um, what, what I think is really interesting about the City of Refuge that I don't know if we've talked about. Is the person who killed the guy accidentally, the manslayer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He can flee to this city of refuge in order to be safe from the avenger of blood.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's this place like that he can go because God knows the human heart so well that he knows that this brother or father, son, whoever the avenger of blood is going to be for this guy who died, is going to seek revenge.
Seth: Right.
David: And, and God is saying, like, I'm going to protect not only this person who doesn't deserve to die. The emphasis in this passage seems to also be on I'm going to protect the holiness of my land. He's like, I'm doing this so that you won't shed innocent blood in my land.
Seth: Yeah. And then it goes back to like another part of like, like a lot of these situations that are being described are situations where injustice is really, really likely. Like it's common for in, in the— when this time was written, for people to take revenge or avenge the blood of their brother who was killed. And a lot of times that led to justice. Like sometimes people were killed and the brother comes and exacts the death penalty on behalf of his deceased brother, right? Like justice would be done. But a lot of that was like a really inconsistent way to do justice because there was no witnesses, there's no courts, there's no appeal system. And so what God is doing here is he's allowing for justice to rule more consistently in his land. I think that's what ends up happening in a lot of these laws when it comes to killing in particular. How can justice be more consistent everywhere throughout my land, not just where one person can enact it by himself?
David: Mm-hmm. I think that's really helpful. And I think— and so there's, there's two sides to this one coin here about innocent blood. So the city of refuge exists so that this person who doesn't deserve to die, this accidental manslayer, doesn't have his blood shed on the land. Yeah, right. But the other side of that coin is if he is a murderer, if he hated this person in his heart and instead of the ax blade slipping off, he laid in wait with an ax and jumped out of a bush and, you know, killed his neighbor, that's murder. And if he flees to a city of refuge trying to stay safe and they find out that it was premeditated murder, the priests are supposed to bring him out to the Avenger of Blood and his blood is meant to be spilled on the ground. Or else what? Because if that doesn't happen, then the murdered person has innocent blood spilled on the ground that has not been paid for yet. And so it's that again.
Seth: Yeah. So a good person, some blood, because even the phrase here, the guilt of innocent blood, guilt of innocent blood, makes me like, I'm like, wait, what is that? The guilt of innocent blood? The guilt of spilling innocent blood? Yes. That what that means? We're supposed to read there like the guilt of taking or like taking innocent blood?
David: Yeah, I think so. But I think there's, there's this general category that it seems like the law is building here of innocent blood. Like, okay, and like, um, like a category within the law? Yeah. And like a, like a more—
Seth: in a framework?
David: Yeah, an imaginative framework maybe. It's this thing that God really cares about, you know. Maybe this goes all the way back for us to like, you know, the Noahic covenant, you know, after the flood, where You know, God forbids murder because man is made in the image of God. Like, God is very interested and concerned about innocent blood being shed. Now, and I know this might seem like I'm over-harping a section here, I mean, but I promise it will become—
Seth: cries out from the ground. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And this is going to be insanely important as we turn to the next chapter. So like, I'm just trying to build this category out. Yeah, of innocent blood and why, why it's important. So I think the main thing I want to say is that like God is all about protecting and avenging, atoning for innocent blood. And so we see that here.
Seth: And what you mean is like when you say protecting and atoning for innocent blood, it's like on one hand, like making sure that innocent blood is not shed.
David: That's right.
Seth: And when innocent blood is spilled, there's punishment for that. That's what you mean?
David: Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Yep.
Seth: And so, so much like justice commands to make sure so that innocence is preserved in the land.
David: Yes, because all of this is about, like, Israel maintaining its, its innocence, its holiness, its goodness, its justice once they enter the land so that they can continue to flourish alongside God. So this is, this is so true that if you allow me, I think we can go ahead and jump over to the beginning of chapter 21, because I think it forms a little bookmark here, or a bookend here. So you have this other very strange story where let's just say this dude's walking in the woods and he's not inside a town anywhere. He's just kind of walking out in the desert.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he sees a dead body and there's just this dead body laying here. No one knows who killed him. You know, if it was a wild animal, he just found him. And they're supposed to measure and see which town is closest to that dead body. And they call the elders of that town.
Seth: That would be within their jurisdiction, I guess. Yep.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yep.
David: And so then that town would call their elders together, you know, and we talked about that Governing Body last week or several weeks ago. I can't remember. Yeah, I think it was last week. And those elders come and they are to perform this sacrifice. They are supposed to—
Seth: weird sacrifice because it's out. Because unlike all the other sacrifices that are like done at the temple, this one, this is like a killing in the middle of a field.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yes. It's by water, by running water.
David: Yeah, exactly. So all this is very important. And so, so they're supposed to go out to this body, the elders are supposed to go out to this dead body. And they are to there profess to God and say, we do not know who killed this man, we did not kill this man. But innocent blood has been shed on the land, and we are going to fix it. And so they're to take this heifer who's never pulled a plow or anything like that, this pure heifer, and they are to slit its throat and let its blood— break its neck first and then slit its throat, right?
Seth: I don't think— I, I don't remember seeing, uh, man, am I making stuff up? And all the elders of the city nearest the slain man shall wash their hands over the heifer whose neck was broken in the valley, and they shall testify, our hands not shed this blood, nor did our eyes see it shed. I don't think— I don't—
David: maybe you're right.
Seth: Oh, oh no, no. Yeah, it just says break the heifer's neck. That's all it says.
David: Yep.
Seth: But they do consider that as a shedding of blood. So like, you know, there's like, it's not, not a violent or— yeah, yeah.
David: And so, and what's happening here by the end, this running water and everything like that, it's all this cleansing that's taking place is that this, the blood of this bull or this heifer, you know, the life of this heifer is atoning for kind of standing in the place of whoever killed this man, like, or whatever killed— it could have been an animal, right? It could have been anything. And so God is trying to, even in the case of, like, mysterious unsolved murders in the middle of the wilderness, God is concerned about preserving the innocence of his land when there's innocent bloodshed.
Seth: Okay, and so we said when the guilt of innocent blood, that means whenever somebody takes an innocent life, whether that's through murder, manslaughter, or even just an animal goring somebody, there is almost like this pall or this like covering or this stain that appears in the land. Like guilt for innocence— guilt because of spilling of blood enters into the land, right? And there needs to be atonement. There needs— that needs to be fixed, right? Innocence needs to be restored. Like innocence is lost when innocent blood is taken.
David: Right.
Seth: Innocence needs to be restored. So this heifer that's never been worked on, been used to work or anything, when its neck is broken, and when the priests wash their hand over it, and they'd make this declaration, innocence is restored to the land.
David: Yes.
Seth: What you're saying?
David: Okay, that's exactly what I'm saying. Okay. And, and you see at the end of some of these sections, it's, it's so that it may go well with you. And so that, you know, you will not sin before the Lord. It's all about maintaining relational and proximal intimacy with God. Like, it's about being able to stay in the land, about God's presence remaining in the temple. It's all about maintaining this holiness. You know, we talked a lot about that back in like Leviticus and Numbers, and God is still very much concerned about that. So we kind of get this repeated refrain throughout this whole section, which has been said elsewhere and will be said again in Deuteronomy. But it's, and so you shall purge evil from your midst. God is all about getting not only the actions of evil out of your midst, you know, out of your heart. Yeah. But he's also about when evil is done, making sure it's paid for, making sure it is fixed, making sure that the eye for eye is— is— yeah, is even, you know, just bringing everything back to an equilibrium of justice. And so it's a lot like— yeah, a lot of weird stuff is kind of going on here. But the thing that I want people to walk away with is that God has a deep concern for innocent blood. And he will not abide by people taking the life of those who do not deserve it. It's like a very important thing to God. So much so that he goes out of his way to build cities of refuge and have unknown murder cases atoned for, all this stuff.
Seth: Yeah, like in this, the unsolved murders, it's like in this situation, justice cannot be done. Like, that's what I wrote. Like, what hap— like, this law tells us what happens when justice can't be done. Like, no one will ever pay for this. Like, yeah, who can, who can make this right? Because this is wrong, but we have no one to blame. Like, how do we make that right? Yeah, so it's— and I also think just like I have categories in my mind for like innocence lost and like the desire to regain innocence. I even watched a TV show recently where like, you know, it was like some killer for hire, and somebody asked him like, what's it like to kill somebody? Oh gosh, it's kind of great. It's super dark. But anyway, he responds with like, I carry each one of them with me. Like, it's like I never forget the people that I killed because it's like there's this profound loss of innocence that happens. So it's kind of this intense moment. Yeah.
David: But I think there's like, it's like the, it's like, uh, making a Horcrux in Harry Potter, right? Yes. Killing divides the soul.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Why would you want to do that 7 times? Yeah.
Seth: And there's— and I think so we have categories, I think, like the desire to regain that innocence, but knowing that it can never come back. Like, like if you murder somebody, you don't get that innocence back. And in here, like, this is saying like that doesn't happen. Like you can't as a person gain that innocence back, but the land that God has chosen, the place that God chooses to dwell, can have its innocence restored. I don't know. I'm just trying to like give myself better handholds for that.
David: But yeah, and I think it's helpful too that you said that it's not only like the person that needs their innocence restored, but the place, you know, like it's kind of like whenever you go, like you see in like a movie or maybe some random person has experienced this in their own— it's like, did someone die in the master bedroom of this house that we're trying to purchase? And it's like, yeah, we can't sell this house because someone died in the master bedroom. It's like death leaves a pall, you know, a covering, kind of like you said. And it's like until that's fixed, it's weird. And like we have categories for that, like Yeah, I just— I can't go to that place anymore, you know? Or like you go to Auschwitz, you know, or Hiroshima, you know, you go to these places. Yeah, it just feels haunted and desolate. No matter what you did to it, it will always have that. That just—
Seth: I like that idea. Like, like, I mean, it's like overly spiritual to use the word haunting, but I like, like the image of that, like when innocent blood is spilled it like haunts the land, like, right? Abel's blood cries out.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's this sense like there's a deep unsettledness, like spiritually in the land that must be resolved. And like God has made all these ways for the haunting to end, for innocence to be restored, for justice to be at equilibrium, to restore the balance.
David: Yeah, it happens all the time. I mean, I remember like, so we, we lost our first baby that we were, that we were pregnant with. And I, and like, I remember the chair in the hospital that Megan and I, like, sat— Megan sat in the chair and I, like, was at her feet on my knees crying in this, like, waiting, waiting to go and get, like, an ultrasound to affirm that the baby was dead because the— our doctor couldn't find a heartbeat. And I just remember that chair where we were. And every time I walk into that hospital now, even though we've had a successful, you know, birth and everything, I walk past that chair And I'm like, I never want to sit in that chair again. Like, it just has this shadow over it. And like, I hate that chair. Like, you know, we just have these— we have these markers that death leaves and we long for them to be fixed. And I think that's just our whole world is marred by death. And I just think we have this longing to have it erased.
Seth: That's super— that's so, so vivid because like when I read these laws the first time, I was like, what is going on here? Why do you need to go to the valley where water's running to kill this heifer? Like, but like You're right, like death leaves something and it needs to be fixed. And like, we live the— we live our lives like haunted by all these reminders of death and these places that are haunted.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, or even like just graveyards. Like there's like a— like these are haunted places that you don't want to enter into because you're scared, like weirdly scared of it, even though you know there's nothing there. So what this is— so yeah, that's like what this text is actually teaching us. But like, these are helping us. What this is saying is that God has a way to take away those hauntings. Like, God has a way to scrub the death away, to scrub the guilt away. Yeah. And it's through sacrifice.
David: Yes. Yeah. And so then I think that leads us to kind of want to run ahead to Jesus, and I think we should. Yeah, because I'm so curious about this and I have it, I have it written down on my notes as a question and I don't have an answer on how to parse this together. So hopefully we can kind of, you know, puzzle it out. But I just have this question here. So what are we to do with the spilling of innocent blood in the case of Jesus? Like, yeah, and especially murder. It's unsolved. We know who did it.
Seth: Yeah. Whenever we were reading the unsolved murder portion, when they're like washing their hands saying, it's not my fault, I'm like, I'm just thinking of Pilate.
David: Like, right.
Seth: I'm— yeah, but like that. But We know Jesus, you know, anyway, his neck wasn't broken. Like, that doesn't seem to be the right parallel. But you're right. I keep thinking there's got to be Jesus here.
David: Well, I mean, think about what the whole congregation in the court of Pilate says in Matthew 27:25. They said, his blood is on us and our children. And that's right after Pilate washes his hands. Like, Pilate washes his hands, saying, I'm innocent of this blood. You know, cultural symbol.
Seth: I didn't—
David: I'm not going to be responsible for this. For me, he is a random dead person in the wilderness. I had nothing to do with it. You know, Pilate's washing his hands and the people then say, fine, we'll take it. Like, we'll take the blood guilt of this man. His guilt, like his blood is on us and our children. And so Jesus is the only innocent blood that's truly ever been shed. And, and yeah, and yet it seems to reverse the whole equation. Right? Because it's like, it's like we all— like, the innocent person's not supposed to die. That's not justice. Like, that doesn't— that's not supposed to—
Seth: well, I mean, in this case, the innocent heifer dies, right?
David: Yep.
Seth: Stains the haunting of innocent blood in the wilderness. Yeah. But you're right, like, the— the— there has been— there's death covering the world, and most of it's not innocent. Like, you know, there— well, maybe we, we should like reverse our categories here. Like, it's unsolved— an unsolved murder. Well, that person— okay, maybe I'm— I was gonna like— anyway, sorry, I was gonna try something, but I don't think it's gonna work. So Jesus— yeah, so if we think of Jesus as the innocent heifer who scrubs death from the world, like, yes, murder obviously implies guilt. If the world is covered in guilt, if the world has lost innocent blood, and if there is guilt haunting specific places, specific graveyards, specific homes. Like when Jesus dies as the heifer, when Pilate washes his hands over Jesus's body, when the crowd says, 'It's our fault,' what happens here in Deuteronomy 21 happens to the whole world, right? What was supposed to happen in the Promised Land, Jesus does for the entire world, and he scrubs the haunting clean. Like, yeah, there is no more death that haunts us anymore. Like, yeah, there is resurrection life for those who are in Christ, and there is true justice for those who have been— who have committed murders, right?
David: Yeah, like, yeah, definitely.
Seth: Yeah, like, blood works both ways that way. It's like, this is a symbol that justice will be done. The people responsible for these murders, these killings, this blood, this haunting will be taken care of. Right.
David: Yeah, I think— and I just love the image too, that like in Christ's innocent death on our behalf, there is a stream where we can come and wash the blood off our hands. Like, I just love that image. And then I also, I just think it's really interesting that—
Seth: because we're the murderers too. Like, we're the living murderers.
David: Exactly. Yes.
Seth: They got away with it.
David: They got away with it. Yes.
Seth: Right.
David: Exactly right. And then I think it's also the irony of what was said his blood is on us and our children, you know, and that's— that can go one of two ways. Like you said, Jesus's blood kind of goes both ways, and it depends on how you approach it. It's either going to be— you're going to either be covered with the guilt of innocent blood, and therefore your life is going to be required of you. The manslayer— or sorry, the avenger of blood, God— is going to one day come after you. Or all the blood that you've shed in this world, all the wrong that you've done, is going to be covered up because his blood is on you and your children.
Seth: It's like— the important fact about this ritual is that the murderer gets away free.
David: Yes, that's right.
Seth: Like, the murderer goes away free, but justice is still done.
David: It's still done.
Seth: Like, yeah, like, the land is still cleansed. And so, like, that's— there's like an unfairness there, but that's also like grace. Like, yeah, like, we are the murderer that gets away free. Because of the sacrifice of the heifer.
David: Hey, did you know that we actually have another podcast? And don't worry, it's not like this one. It's only 3 minutes long. It's basically a shorter, more simple version of what Seth and I spend an hour talking about. Just search for Jesus in All of the Bible in your podcast app and be sure to subscribe. Let's jump back in. Okay, so we, uh, we kind of spent a lot of time talking about cities of refuge and, uh, the Avengers of Blood. Um, now it goes from there, the cities of refuge, to talking about moving boundary markers.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, yeah, it does feel kind of like a little whiplash, but the law here is that, you know, God is going to bring you into the land and he's going to give you land and he's going to apportion it to you. And he's the one who draws the boundaries for each tribe and clan and family.
Seth: Like, this is all put there by God, which the men of old have set. And so either that's a reference to Joshua and Joshua 13, or it's God in Deuteronomy 32. So like either one of the— both God and Joshua, like, apportion the land out. And so if you disregard Joshua's divisions or God's divisions, you're rebellious, you're acting treacherously. Don't do that.
David: Right. And so basically what they would do is there were these little boundary stones that kind of delineated between fields.
Seth: They would have the name of the owner of the field on it.
David: Yep. And you can kind of picture like, oh, I'm out here plowing the very edge of my field. And, you know, if I kicked that rock over just a little bit, I could get one more whole row of crop, you know, and add, you know, 5% to my income next year. Hmm.
Seth: Right.
David: You know, like, that sounds like—
Seth: nobody's around here.
David: No one's around. Yeah. And yeah, he says, don't do that. And like, the reason why he takes it so seriously is because not only does that— that, I mean, it ends up— it ends up violating love God and love neighbor, right? It is not loving your neighbor because the 5% you take for your own land is taken out of his field. Right. Which I think is a very vivid picture of what sin does in our world, that anytime we act in a way that sinfully benefits us, it sinfully harms someone else in an equal proportion. You know, like there are no innocent— there's no unharmed parties in sin. Like, I think it's a really helpful, vivid picture.
Seth: But it also goes back to like what you were saying about how all this is connected to murder and like killing. One of the re— why do we go to war most often?
David: Oh, land, border, boundary lines.
Seth: It's like, oh, but like just 30 feet over there's a stream that would be really helpful in irrigating my lawn. You know, like, you know, like that's like, that's like why we go to war. That's why we kill each other is over personal property or national boundaries.
David: Like, and it's— and you're taking that person's livelihood, you're taking their food away from them because like this is an agrarian culture. So it's not like, oh, you don't have a place for your swing set. Like, this, this is like you're taking their food from them, which is kind of like starving them to death. It's kind of like murder, you know. And so like, I think it also links in that way. But you're also breaking the command to love God because you are, you are moving the boundaries that he set. You're breaking his law, his rule, his, you know, command. And so I think it's interesting too that, you know, kicking a boundary stone, you know, which might seem at worst a sin against my neighbor, ultimately is a sin against God. And I think, you know, like the psalmist nails it on the head when he says, against you and you alone have I sinned. Like, every sin not only has an equal effect on those around us, but it also is ultimately a sin against God, which is why he is the avenger of blood. He's the one who will repay us for our sins. So a little, uh, one-verse section, but there it is.
Seth: And the next one is about laws concerning witnesses. So the— we've already talked about witnesses. There needs to be 2 or 3 witnesses in order to establish your case before a court. And what happens here specifically is like, well, what if one of those militia, uh, one of those witnesses is a false witness? Like, what if they're lying? Like, what if they're maliciously trying to manipulate the truth to get somebody indicted for something that they shouldn't be? And so what this kind of tells you is like, you can't actually like rig the system by just getting more witnesses to agree with the false witness, right? If you see two people with a significant disagreement stop the court proceedings, conduct an investigation, and make sure that no collusion among the witnesses is possible.
David: Yes.
Seth: And like, this preserves justice in the land. Yeah.
David: Yeah. So I think one thing that we're supposed to see here again and again and again through this section, I think what God is doing in putting these laws together is building a case for his supreme concern for justice, especially when it comes to human life. That if there's this murder case and someone is saying things that might even possibly be wrong, I want you to hunt down anything you can to make sure that you don't put an innocent man to death. Yeah. And he's very concerned.
Seth: And whatever you are accusing him of and the penalty that you want that person to, like, experience, if you're found out to, to be lying, it'll happen to you.
David: That's right.
Seth: Which is intense.
David: It is.
Seth: And so it would make me second-guess ever, like, pressing charges against anybody.
David: Yeah, definitely. Yes. And so all of this then leads us into this next section. And there are, in, at the beginning of chapter 19, there are these laws about warfare. And they, and they also stretch into chapter 21. So I'd like to address all those together here.
Seth: Give me— say that again. Why are laws concerning witnesses leading us into talking about warfare?
David: I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get there.
Seth: Oh, you're going to get—
David: Yeah, but we need— I want to set up what this next section is. And then I— and then I think there is a logical train of thought that God is using to get us into this place. But I've got to lay out where we're going. And so basically, we have laws against— we have laws about warfare. And these are about like plunder. You know, it's about like, we like who should go to war, who—
Seth: what circumstances.
David: Yeah, what circumstances like so. Let's kind of go through that.
Seth: You have like an in— like a— there's— and the big distinction here is between conflicts you have like outside of your kingdoms, like outside the promised land and within the promised land.
David: That's right.
Seth: Uh, yep.
David: So some of the main distinctions are like, I guess let's kind of like, you can go through a whole war and you kind of touch on all of them. So let's say, um, you are about to go into war with a nation. Uh, he says that you should trust in the Lord and do not fear. And then it goes through a whole list of qualifications, basically, that if you, if you meet any of them, just stay home, don't go to war. So it's like, if you are afraid, just stay home. If you have recently taken a wife, man, just go enjoy your wife. You know, like if it's like all these things, it's like if you have a better— if you just bought a house, go enjoy your house. And I think like some of that's just like cool God's grace stuff.
Seth: It goes back to like how the kings were not supposed to amass an army. It's like there's no standing army in Israel. And the army is voluntary. Like, these are all like keys and indicators that like armed service is voluntary within Israel.
David: Yes. And I think it's also a cool little nod to God doesn't need a big army, you know, like whittle it down. I don't care. You know, it should remind us of like Gideon, you know, and his small army. God fights for you. You know, I just, I just finished our Spoken Gospel poem introduction for Isaiah. And, you know, you have Sennacherib camping outside of Israel at the last walled city before getting into Jerusalem. And he's got 185,000 men there. And Hezekiah just trusts the word of the Lord and doesn't, you know, surrender or anything. And the angel of the Lord just goes and kills all 185,000. Like, God doesn't need an army, you know, like God can just do it. And so he's like, go home. I don't really need you.
Seth: But they also should remind you of Genesis 14, by the way. Where Moses rescues Lot by killing—
David: Abraham. Abraham.
Seth: Abraham. Sorry, Abraham rescues Lot. And he actually— what's super fascinating, he actually like follows all the rules laid out here in Deuteronomy 20.
David: Oh, really?
Seth: Yeah. I was like, there's like all these parallels where he like, he's not afraid to go up against a nation that's larger than him. He only has 318 men, just like Gideon only has about 300 men as well. Like he went specifically with men who had been dedicated in their house. And here it says, if you have not dedicated your house yet, don't come and fight. Like, um, what else? He, he doesn't take plunder from them, but he does take plunder from Melchizedek when he offers him money, uh, over and over again. Like, there's all these parallels where Moses—
David: that's cool—
Seth: not Moses, sorry, Abraham follows these laws, which made me feel like, well, how did he know about them? Anyway, that was just a cool point. So you can go back and read Genesis 14 and just see how Abraham was commended because of his faithfulness to the law. Like, he obeyed the law.
David: Anyway, that's really cool. Um, and so then the, the, those who voluntarily come, they go to this nation and they offer it terms of peace, and they just say, hey, you guys can surrender or fight. And if they surrender, then great, no war, you can take them as your servants. And that's your land now.
Seth: Yeah, which is like, this is actually a really merciful policy. Like, that was not common for nations of that day.
David: No.
Seth: In fact, 1 Kings 20:31 says that Israel was known by the surrounding nations for their mercy because of this policy. Like, they always offered terms of peace first before they engaged in warfare.
David: And then if the nation doesn't accept their terms of peace— now, this is not talking about the Canaanite nations, the nations inside the Promised Land. This is talking about nations outside the Promised Land. If they don't accept accept their terms of peace, then Israel is to go in and wage war and put every male to death, maybe even the, the soldiers, you know, but it could be every male, and take the women and the children, the livestock and everything as plunder. Yep. And so that's happening. But if it's a, if it's a Canaanite nation, one of the promised nations, I think a more helpful designation for them would be the sinful nations that God is bringing Israel in to judge, then no terms of peace are offered. They just go in and it says that they put everything that breathes to the sword. Now, this is where it gets super thorny, right?
Seth: I mean, this is what a lot of people quote as one of the reasons why the Bible is like a morally reprehensible book.
David: That's right.
Seth: Yeah. Deuteronomy 20. That's where people go.
David: Mm-hmm. And they're supposed to put everything that breathes to the sword— men, women, children, livestock, everything. And the reason given is so that they don't lead you to follow their gods.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, and that you would sin against the Lord is what it says. And so let's keep going. Because I want to, I want to keep going before we try to wrestle that to the ground, because I think Deuteronomy is trying to help us here. So then once they go and they, they, they, you know, take over a nation and plunder it, then there's rules about plunder, you know, and they can— there's the one, there's one in 21, chapter 21, about like, if you are going about the land that you've conquered and you see a woman that you think is beautiful and you want to take her.
Seth: Yes.
David: You can take her, but there's, there's like really merciful rules.
Seth: Yeah. Make sure she can't be thrown into slavery. You can't sell her into slavery. You can't profit off of her.
David: Right.
Seth: Like if you want to have her as your wife and live with her and love her and have children with her and bring her into your family, you can do that, but you can't make a profit out of, off of her.
David: And you can't rape her. You know, anything like that. And when you desire to take her, you bring her into your home and you give her a month where you just leave her alone and she's allowed to mourn her family for a month. Like, and it's like, wow, that's, you know, I mean, this is a horrendous situation regardless, but like that little glimpse of mercy is kind of nice, right?
Seth: Again, like the nations knew Israel is a merciful nation when it went to battle. This is, this is unprecedented.
David: Unprecedented.
Seth: Yes. For the time. I mean, okay, so let me just— let's— I don't know if I should stop you there.
David: Like, yeah, we can, we can start addressing this now.
Seth: Okay. Yeah. So like, it's unprecedented for the time. Great. But is it, is it better? Like, wouldn't it have been better for God to have said like, no, you can't forcibly marry somebody?
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: Right. Like, that's not okay.
David: Uh, I don't know. I don't know. That's not what I was— that's not what I'm prepared to answer.
Seth: Oh gosh. Well, my question, I mean, so that was the question behind in my mind, is it okay? Like, I trust God's word. Yep. But this does feel like a woman is being— is a treasure of war. Like she is plunder for war. It seems like they're saying, don't take plunder in this circumstance, in this circumstance, in this circumstance. But it still seems like they're bartering or getting women as part of the spoils. Okay.
David: Okay. I have an answer for you then.
Seth: Okay.
David: So a couple of things to realize here. One, and this is not my favorite answer, so just know I'm throwing this out as the lowest hanging fruit and it's going to get better. So one is, you know, does God just know, kind of like he did with the Avenger of Blood, that they're going to just do it? You know, like men and men in the army they are used to ransacking towns and raping women, you know. And he's like, no, that's not going to stand in my land. If you want a woman, you commit to her, marry her, let her mourn her family, and you love her well. If you ever want to get rid of her, you do not get to sell her into slavery. You have to give her possessions and let her go and be at peace in the land because you've humiliated her. It even says there's even like a moral indictment at the end of that. That says you've humiliated this woman, you've done something that's kind of bad. And so it even kind of owns up to that. And so I don't know if God was trying to steer people away from doing this to begin with, with this law. Okay, so that's not my favorite answer, but I do think that is an answer. The other way— the other thing we need to think about is if Israel has come in and killed every male in the country, that leaves a bunch of widows. And so what God is doing is he is saying, let's take care of the widows, bring them in, marry them, love them, like make them into the covenant people of God and like care for them. And so we don't have a whole bunch of widows in these lands that don't have husbands anymore, because in the ancient time, like, like women don't have rights, they don't have land, they can't own anything. And so he's like, let's take care of the widows in the land by marrying them.
Seth: And it wouldn't just be the widows. It'd also be their orphan children.
David: Their orphan children.
Seth: That's right. You would be like marrying a woman and taking responsibility not just for her, but for her family as well.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I've never thought about that before. Okay. Yeah, that's helpful.
David: And yeah. And so I think that's, that's, that's an answer there is that if this is the way warfare is, the way that God is going to send Israel into the nation, and we need to talk about that. Then how can God mercifully care for people and call Israel to love their neighbors as they are doing this thing? You know, like, and I think this is one of the ways is that instead of just killing every male, raping the women and leaving town, you need to take care of the women and bring them into your homes, take care of their children, all that kind of stuff.
Seth: Because then there is a provision about like the holiness of God, like the holiness of the land, the distinctiveness of God, like preserving innocence. And like, even though war is hell, like, like, you know, like the— and living in a fallen world like necessitates almost this type of warfare, like there are provisions to do it well, to do it justly, to do it fairly, and to preserve the innocence of those involved to a certain degree.
David: Yep. Yep. And so, yeah, so anyway, I just think that's one way to look at it. Now, I think this still leaves the big question of, but why war to begin with? Yeah, you know, like, why? Especially why for the Canaanites? Like, is God commanding his people to go in and put everything that breathes to the sword? Like, what is going on? Now, with that question in mind, let's back up and talk about everything we just talked about in chapter 19. So we've learned that God is preeminently concerned with the shedding of innocent blood, that he only wants guilty to have their blood shed. And if any innocent blood, one drop of it is spilled, that leaves a pall and a death mark and sin on that land.
Seth: Yeah. Okay.
David: So now before I jump to like one of the main conclusions, let's remember what is— what is the land of Canaan? We already know they're offering child sacrifice. Like, we already know that they're, they're committing all kinds of ritualistic sacrifices. They're killing each other. There's all kinds of sin going on. Inside the land of Canaan, it is stained with innocent blood, like, and God is bringing Israel in as the avenger of blood, right? He's bringing them in.
Seth: Okay.
David: Okay. Because that whole territory God has marked off, put the boundary markers, which we talked about around it and said, this is the land for my people. It's going to be a holy land. I am going to come and dwell in the midst of this land. And yet I can't right now because it's filled with innocent blood. It is just sin covered with sin.
Seth: It's filled with spilled innocent blood.
David: Spilled innocent blood. Sorry, it's kind of confusing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
David: It's filled with spilled innocent blood and there's a lot of guilt there going on. And I made these— I put this boundary marker around it. That's my land. And so I'm going to bring my avenger of blood into it, the Army of Israel, to come in and, and like bring atonement for all of this.
Seth: Okay.
David: And now I love then that there's this section on witnesses, like God is very concerned with only bringing the guilty to be, to be punished. And so we know that God himself is standing as the ultimate witness that cannot lie against the people of Canaan. And he is saying, like, these people are deserving of death, every single one of them. And so not, not one drop of innocent blood is shed when Israel comes into Canaan and kills them. Like, God, they are— he is acting out his just punishment and his atonement for the land and for all the sin that's in there on these people and for what they deserve. And so, like, that doesn't make it any easier to hear, but I, but I do think it provides the right biblical categories and theological categories for why God is operating this way.
Seth: Okay. So before I want— before I want to argue with the fact that everything that breathes includes children and like that in my mind don't have any like guilt on them, they're not responsible for the sins of their parents. Before we go there, let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying more broadly. In a section of text, in a section of laws concerned with with killing, murder, and how God views innocence and guilt. You have all these laws that are protecting the innocent, avenging the innocent, enacting justice on the guilty, and also like restoring innocent— innocence when, um, innocence has been lost. In particular in the land itself, like that haunting kind of like stain thing. So what you're saying then is the, the con— though even warfare like falls under those categories. So what— and the reason why there's different laws for wars fought outside the land and wars fought inside the Promised Land is because you're actually dealing with two separate things. Outside the land, you're dealing with like rules of warfare. You want to expand your territory, they haven't necessarily sinned against you or like sinned in the way that these Canaanites have, but you want their land. There's been some sort of tension there. It's come to a head. You need to work this way. But when you're inside the land, in God's holy space, in God's temple, you're actually in his, like, his, like, present— the place where his presence is supposed to dwell. The laws are different because we're not talking about warfare. We're talking about atonement and blood and sacrifice. And we're talking— we're just talking about a different category of thing. Yes, we're talking about holiness, not warfare. I mean, it is warfare, but it's like a whole— it's a holy warfare. It's like a— it's different in kind.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so the reason why we kill everything that breathes, but we don't take plunder, is because that is just— it's of a different demonic kind than your arguments with your neighbors to the north. Right. Okay. That's what I'm hearing you write. It's not— yeah, yeah.
David: Inside the land of Canaan. Is not geopolitical, it's theological.
Seth: Got it. Yeah, it's a much easier way to say what it took me 90 seconds to say.
David: Yeah. So I— and I realize that this is still really difficult. Like, I don't want anyone hearing me to think like that I'm just completely satisfied and at peace with this because of what I've just articulated. Like, it's still something to wrestle with. Yeah, sure.
Seth: Just like some— that might make it like Does everything that breathes mean killing people that might actually have been innocent God-fearers within Canaan? Because like Rahab, she was spared and her family was spared whenever they went into Canaan, into Jericho. Does it necessarily mean all children? Because I know like the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Aragites, all they all appear throughout the rest of the Bible. Like, like we have like evidence that these people that they're supposed to devote entirely to destruction appear elsewhere, right? Um, does everything that breathes mean everyone, period?
David: Um, well, I think this— I think so. I think I have two answers for you. I think you have the, the God-fearer repentant Rahab.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Who does— seems to be the exception, not the rule. Yeah, right. I mean, she is mentioned elsewhere in the Bible as this exemplary banner of faith. And it's a big deal. So I think she's the exception, not the rule.
Seth: She might not be the only exception.
David: No, I don't think so.
Seth: Are exceptions— if there are exceptions, people who are rarer than we think, then we might want to believe they are.
David: Yeah, maybe. But all I'm saying is like, I think like, sure, if there are people there that repent when they see the armies of Israel coming and turn to the Lord, did God provide them ways of escape that didn't get chronicled in the Old Testament? Yeah, probably. I think that, that Rahab could stand as a category of repentant Canaanites who trembled before the encroaching army of the Lord and repented.
Seth: Okay.
David: I don't, I don't see why we shouldn't create her as a category.
Seth: Okay.
David: But I will say that the people, when we read in the rest of the Bible about these other nations, the Amorites and the Canaanites, the Jebusites, you know, they pop up elsewhere. God said that that would happen if they don't utterly destroy them, and that they would be thorns in their flesh for generations to come. And that's what happens. Israel disobeys God in not putting everything to the, to the sword. And that means that they then have to share the land with these sinful neighbors. And what happens? Exactly what God said would happen if they don't put them to the sword. They end up following their gods. They end up turning away from him. And then Israel herself ends up being taken over, murdered, and kicked out of the land.
Seth: Like, yeah, I mean, the story of Esther where Haman is an Agagite, he's a descendant of the Canaanites, and he wants to wipe out the Jews.
David: That's right.
Seth: In Persia. Like, like that conflict still remains. And you're saying that's because of their disobedience.
David: That's right. It's the fruit of their sin.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yep. And so, yeah. So do I believe that this included children? Boh, do I— like, there's so many arguments around this, and there's so many ways to view it. I can't get away from the fact that I think the clearest reading of the text is that it's children. It includes children and cows and donkeys and sheep and women, and it doesn't make that comfortable. And I think that's the point. I honestly think that's the point. I think that we are meant to fear the Lord in this passage. Like, even with all the provisions for innocent blood being spilled, like, because it's like, like, I think that's the whole point is to show that if God says put every living thing to the sword, they're not innocent. You like, we keep talking about these innocent parties. God, it's clearly not a category for God that these these children of the Canaanites are innocent. Um, now, now, could there have been an innocent category of children under a certain age or something like that? Yeah, there definitely could have been. Do we read about it? No. So like, I don't, I don't know if God made that provision. Um, this, these are one of those points that I come to in the Bible that I just have to like submit and be like, God's view of good is better than mine. I'm not going to try to take from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and define good and evil for myself and call God evil. Or try to warp his revealed word to make it fit better with my 21st century worldview. I'm going to try as best I can to sit under the word of God and let it convict me and say, yeah, like, David, I don't think you fear the wrath of God enough. And I don't think you know how bad sin is. And I don't think you know how purifying the judgment of God will be. Like, I just don't think I've built those categories up well enough. Because I try to explain them away instead of sit under them. And so it's a hard passage, but I think it's hard for a reason.
Seth: Yeah. And I think— I hope my tone is not skeptical there. Like, I want this passage to cut me the right way as well. Totally. Because if the point that I should take away from this is fear the Lord, fear his justice, and also be skeptical of your innocence, like, if that's what I'm supposed to take away, like, I do want to— I want to feel that, like, I really do. Um, and so like, I'm trying to like build categories for myself by asking these questions. Like, are children innocent? Like, as a category already, you know, like even like if we're talking theologically, not geopolitically, like, is my 4-year-old and my 10-month-old innocent? Like, that's the question I feel like I want to start asking as well.
David: Yeah. Well, and I think we need to—
Seth: yeah.
David: And I think I've said this before on the show when we've talked about Holy War. That, like, physical death does not always equal eternal death. Like, judgment on planet Earth does not mean you've fallen under God's eternal judgment forever. So, like, I think we talked about this before, that if you kill— like, the killing of a young Canaanite might have been a mercy from God. Because instead of growing up and becoming guilty and sacrificing their own children to the flames, or maybe they were next to be sacrificed themselves, instead of becoming some pagan worshiper who would have eternally been separated from God, by, by killing them, their souls are saved forever because they weren't guilty and they've been brought to God before they could enter into that time of guilt. So I think that's another way to think about it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So anyway, I just think it's helpful to not say that, like, physical death always— because then if God putting someone physically to death under his judgment means that they're eternally separated from him, then so are Moses and so is Aaron. They were both killed by God on mountains because of their sin. And so, like, and they are not eternally separated from God. So I think that, like, I just think we have to expand our categories there a little bit.
Seth: Okay. So, I mean, we're not going to solve this problem.
David: No, of course not.
Seth: We've been debating this for a long time. You feel uncomfortable with this topic. I feel uncomfortable with this topic. Our listeners, you're probably feeling uncomfortable with what we're talking about here. And if we're trying to see through, and like, there's so much like cultural baggage here. Like, so let's, if we're trying to see through the mist and we're trying to determine, okay, we're talking about. God's justice when it comes to guilt and innocence, particularly when it comes to killing. What do we need to take away from here? Like what? Like, and how do we see Jesus like even in like the, in this like passage about warfare?
David: Yeah. Um, I mean, I think we need to take away, um, the severity of sin, right? I think we need to take away God's concern for holiness. And I think we like, how do we get to Jesus is like, how do we not get to Jesus? We need to run to him, you know, like we need to like, it's the only escape we have from this encroaching tide of judgment.
Seth: And well, maybe Rahab's helpful here then, because in this, in this scenario, the Canaanites are dwelling in, living in God's promised place, like his place, and they're committing sin like they need. Justice needs to be done. Yeah, the, the haunting needs to be scrubbed. Like, they need to be taken care of. We're not much different, even though, like, God does not have one place, but because of Jesus's cross, all authority has been given in him— to him in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Like, there's actually no part— geopolitical nation that is not under God's domain. That's right. Like, he is— he's overall His presence resides everywhere. And so all sin, all moving of the boundaries, all shedding of innocent blood, all sexual immorality is judged with the same severity as the theological killings that we have here in Deuteronomy 20. Yeah, actually, we're all under the same threat.
David: Yes, Deuteronomy 20. Everything, everything that breathes is The sword is coming.
Seth: So every city, every nation is like Jericho. Like, yeah, yeah. God doesn't even need to use the army, but with God's army's voice alone, he can cause the walls to crumble. And your only hope in that scenario is to be Rahab, like to trust God, to have heard of his work and his might and his salvation in Israel, in Egypt, but also on the cross in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: And to cry out to him. This is your only hope. It was the only hope for Rahab, who was in Deuteronomy 20. Like, she fell under the type of people of Deuteronomy 20. Like, I think maybe the way to say that is like, actually, this is the closest we get to ever experiencing this is reading about it because of Jesus. That's right, right.
David: And the reason, the reason is, is because of what we read at the end of Deuteronomy 21. So at the end of Deuteronomy 21, we hear this provision that might sound familiar to you if you've read your New Testament, it talks about the fact that if anyone has committed a crime punishable by death, he has to be put to death by being hanged on a tree. And but he's not to be left overnight because that would leave a curse on the land because it says cursed is anyone who's hanged on a tree. And Paul picks up on this in Galatians 3 when he talks about how can we escape the curse, right? This curse of, of shedding innocent blood, of moving boundary markers, of, you know, having a whole host of witnesses called against our lives that says, yeah, this David really, you know, screwed me over in this position. You know, he definitely deserves what's coming for him. He's cursed. I'm in the land of Canaan with the armies of God encroaching on me, and I have no way to escape. I have a curse on me. Well, Galatians 3 says that Jesus became the curse for us. As it is written, cursed is anyone who's hanged on a tree. So the curse of the encroaching sword of Israel fell upon Jesus instead of upon me. Like, this is just the basic building block of substitutionary atonement, that I deserve to have the sword of the Lord come for me, for my curse. But instead Jesus did. And now what happens? That blood, that pole, that, that haunting has been scrubbed over. And now innocence is coming. Righteousness is here. Holiness is here. The land is no longer polluted. It is now made clean. My body is no longer polluted. It's made clean because instead of the Canaanite of sin living in me, I now have the Holy Spirit living in me. I'm the new Holy Land of God that's been bought by the one who was cursed on a tree for me.
Seth: Like, I had this image of like a lynching tree, you know, like where somebody is like was hung. Yeah, and like that place carries that haunting, definitely, that hall. Yeah, so I have this image of like Jesus hanging there, but as he's being lynched, he's also like absorbing the haunting, like he's like scrubbing it clean. Like I have the image of Jesus walking into a graveyard and like absorbing and sucking up all the death and all the like tragedy into himself, like taking away that weird feeling that we have. I guess you have these images of Jesus going to these different places where the haunting resides. Wow. And like absorbing it. Yeah. He becomes a curse.
David: Yeah.
Seth: By hanging on the curse, by going into becoming the cursed spot itself. Yeah.
David: And so, yeah, I've often, I've often like even been kind of critical of how ubiquitous the image of the cross is in culture. And, you know, I've been critical. I've been like, what if there was an electric chair there or a noose? Or, you know, you wouldn't put that around your neck. And I think I need to, like, reprimand myself there because the electric chair has never been redeemed. It's never had the haunting taken away from it. The noose has never been redeemed. It's never had the haunting scrubbed off of it. The cross can stand as a horrific instrument of death, but yet this beautiful symbol of hope and peace because the haunting has been removed because Jesus took the curse off of it. Like, that's amazing.
Seth: Yeah. Wow. Yeah.
David: Whew. Okay. Deuteronomy 19 to 21. This is like the heaviest episode we've done in a while.
Seth: Yeah, it is a heavy episode. We talked about this not long ago, but yeah, this is, this is up there.
David: It is. So, well guys, if you hung in this long in the episode, you are commended. We thank you for, for sticking with us. Um, we will, uh, move on to kind of miscellaneous various laws after this. We're gonna take a big chunk outta Deuteronomy next week. Uh, it will be very different, so hopefully a little lighter and cover some more topics.
Seth: Oh, that sounds nice. Clothing choices, cross-dressing, it's gonna be great.
David: Well, awesome. Well, until then, uh, we just, uh, we pray God's blessing and peace over you guys this week, and, uh, we'll see you next time.
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