Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right, everyone, well, welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you for joining us.
Seth: Welcome, welcome.
David: Seth, how you feeling today?
Seth: Feeling, feeling, uh, the r- I've got the right level of caffeine, but the wrong level of food-
David: [laughs]
Seth: So I'm just feeling a little jittery-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and a little, [laughs] a little... It's a fine balance.
David: It really is.
Seth: Two cups of coffee and two pieces of toast is not the right balance.
David: No.
Seth: So I've got-
David: Definitely-
Seth: Actually-
David: Def- definitely not a toast to coffee one for one. That's not the way to go.
Seth: No, no. So I've got to, I've got to figure out something, something better for next time. But it's a lifelong journey. [laughs]
David: It really is. You'll figure it out one day. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Well, we're con-
Seth: Coffee to ratio-
David: We're continuing. Oh my goodness
Seth: ... is a lifelong journey. [laughs]
David: It is.
Seth: Not so much the law of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in relationship the rest of my life, but coffee, food.
David: You gotta figure it out, man.
Seth: Gotta figure that out.
David: Oh, man. But anyway-
Seth: We're on a tour
David: ... so, so we are, um, continuing in, uh, Deuteronomy. This is our second episode in the book of Deuteronomy, and, uh, we kind of started last week with, um, an introduction to Deuteronomy, looking at its, uh, overall theme, its setting, um, its message, and then we kind of looked at chapters one to three and looked at how Moses was unpacking Israel's history, uh, and how they got to this point and why that matters. And then now Moses is kind of turning the ship from looking backwards to now he's starting to look forwards, and he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, is going to, we're gonna really camp out in the, the law and especially in the, the moment that the Ten Commandments were given back in Exodus 19 and 20. And so that's kinda what he harps on here. Um, yeah, what do you think, Seth? Is that a decent setup for what we're about to do?
Seth: Yeah, that's exactly right. Moses is, is trying to make clear and pastorally apply the teachings of the first four books of the Torah to this new generation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And he's continuing that right now in chapter four. Um, he's drawing on, he's drawing out and pulling on lessons that Israel should have learned, particularly in Exodus 19 to 33, like their time at Sinai. So, like, chapter four and chapter five, and even chapter six to a certain extent, is all kind of drawing out lessons from Israel's time, that one year they spent at Mount Sinai.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So this is about law. This is about God's presence. This is about, uh, obedience and wisdom, all themes that, uh, they should have picked up, the fear of the Lord, all things that were talked about in Exodus, uh, 19 through 33.
David: Yeah. And so, uh, the, the focus, he even says at the top of chapter four, he says, "And now, O Israel, listen." You know, this is kind of this big section header here where he wants to talk to them about the statutes and the rules that he's about to teach them. And this is really four all the way through 11 is like an extended prologue to the rest of the book, which is going to, you know, talk about all the different laws and commands and practical ways that Israel's to live out the Ten Commandments. This is this prologue, which is really helpful, and I think b- because it, it kind of gives us the why behind the law, and I think that's really good. I think with the law, uh, and, like, rules, it can often just be how. You know what I mean?
Seth: Yeah, how, okay.
David: Like, it's just all about, like-
Seth: Right
David: ... do this, do this, do this. But, like, why? [laughs] Let's get underneath it a little bit and understand why we're doing this.
Seth: So it's probably helpful-
David: So, yeah
Seth: ... then to talk about that word, like hear and listen in, in, like, the original Hebrew. 'Cause for us, that kind of, like, we have this idea of, like, I'm listening-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and that's me consuming information, like, or, like, understanding something. But for Moses' audience, for this next generation, like, listening and hearing involves a lot more than that. It actually includes obedience within listening.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Because if you're, you're not r- 'cause it proves that you're not listening if you don't obey. [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Like, if God is speaking to you and you're merely listening, you're not actually listening to what the Lord is saying.
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause the sovereign God of the universe who designed you, has made promises to you, and has given you a land is telling you how to live. So you can't merely listen to the laws of God. You must listen and obey. [laughs] Like...
David: Right. Yeah, it's kinda like, it's a little bit like what we, what we say. It's like, "I, I think you are hearing me, but you're not listening to me." [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Have you ever said to your kids?
Seth: Yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I think my wife says it to me. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's awesome. Yeah, and so there is this... And, and that's also a really helpful thing to talk about, um, just for the, the, wh- what we're gonna probably be covering as a whole today because we tend to separate, um, hearing and obeying into two different categories. And, um, as, I'm sure as we go through this episode and we talk about the, the relationship between Israel obeying God's law and Israel receiving life and staying in the land because they're obeying, I think we're gonna want to, like, put those in two camps and be like, "So which one is it? Is it God's grace or their, their obedience that's allowing them to stay into the land?" And that's-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's wrong to separate those things, just as it's wrong to separate hearing and obeying. Like, God is saying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, all this goes together. You're gonna listen-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to, you're gonna listen to me, you're gonna obey me, you're gonna have life. All this is going together. And so whenever Moses says, "Listen," he's saying, "Obey." But I also think he's saying, like, literally listen and, and, like, meditate, rehearse, remember. Because he's gonna-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that's gonna be a huge theme throughout these couple of chapters is to constantly be remembering- Uh, and constantly, uh, let your heart listen and re-listen to the story of God giving you these commandments and what these commandments are in content.
Seth: Yeah, we've already had this idea in, like, the liter- like, the calendar year, like, the holy year, the holy time. Like, there's this repetitive ritualistic thing that happens when you repeat God's laws and live in God's time that actually changes you and forms you-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... into God's people. That doesn't, just doesn't happen with the calendar. It happens, like, with the very laws themselves. If you forget them, you will, um, forget God. Like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and, you know.
David: So I think listen was definitely one, one good thing to, to highlight. Um, maybe this, this first sentence of chapter four, verse one is really good for us to pick apart here 'cause it sets up a lot of good categories. So the next, uh-
Seth: Let's do it
David: ... maybe we should also look at statutes and rules, and then-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I also wanna look at, uh, that you may live and go in and take possession of the land.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, 'cause those are-
Seth: All good things
David: ... two big themes here. All good things. All good things. So whenever Moses is talking about statutes and rules, what is he referencing? Thoughts on that?
Seth: He's referencing, um, not just the Ten Commandments, which is this ki-
David: Mm
Seth: ... this is kind of a preamble for it, 'cause we're gonna get to a retelling of the Ten Commandments in chapter five.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But it's also everything that God told Moses on the mountain. Like, I think he's referring to all the laws of God that are recorded in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and-
Seth: Right?
David: ... and even... Yeah, I, I definitely think so. And I think it's really hard to... Moses doesn't quite separate the narrative of God's saving, loving, gracious action from the commands that he gives based on those actions. And so I think it's also fair to say-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that the statutes and the rules is, is God telling them to remember all of, all that God has done and commanded.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That, that-
Seth: Right
David: ... we don't wanna separate-
Seth: Which is why-
David: ... the fact that God saved them
Seth: ... listening and obeying are so tightly connected, because redemption-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and commands are, like, also intimately related. You cannot be redeemed from death to go back into living like death. This is what Paul says. Like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... those who... Like, Romans 6:1, like, "Should we who have died to sin continue to live in sin? By no means."
David: Right.
Seth: Like, there is a... When we are redeemed from slavery, when we are redeemed from death, that re- act of redemption comes with implications that we cannot but obey and do.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Listen and obey. Be redeemed and act like it. Like, those things are all connected, so it makes sense that you can't necessarily, like, separate God's salvation from God's commands.
David: Yeah, I think that's really helpful. Okay, and then the, the next thing I wanna look at in this f- opening sentence is, um, "And do them, that you may live and go in and take possession of the land that the Lord your God, um, the God of your fathers, is giving you." So there's this, uh, I- I'm gonna use this word, and we might wanna clarify it, and it might not be the right word.
Seth: Be sure.
David: But there's this s- this conditional aspect to them going in and taking the land, and it's like, "If you obey these commands, then you'll stay in the land." And then later in chapter four he's gonna say, "But if you don't, I'll spit you out of the land. You'll be kicked out and exiled from the land." And so, um, there's this, you know, I, I've already said, it's, it's really hard to not separate these two things, you know, just God's gracious gift of the land and their obedience. They, they go hand-in-hand for some reason.
Seth: Right.
David: And I think God's probably trying to get us to see a picture of something he's doing with putting those together. What do you think's hap-
Seth: What do you-
David: What, I, what do you think's happening here?
Seth: What do you think's happening? [laughs]
David: [laughs] Uh, well, it's like this, this, if, if, like, if we talked about last time that they are going into a new Eden, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: And, uh, part of the land of Eden was this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, where, uh, we, where God has told us what good and evil is, and he's, he's command- given them commands, "Don't eat from this tree," and they are to obey God's commands, and then they will live in the land of Eden.
Seth: Right.
David: There's, there's this dependence on God that goes along with living with God, um, and it has to do with what he's commanding. So it just feels like, again, that the Torah is now this new, um, commandment of God, and they're not supposed-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to go try to seek out their own wisdom, but live by the wisdom of God instead.
Seth: Yeah, and I think, too, I mean, what we're talking about is God's covenant with Israel. And so God's made-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... made a covenant with Adam and Eve, like, "You may remain in the land if you eat of the, do not eat of this, this tree." Made a covenant with Noah and with Abraham and with Israel again. And, like, what's common in all of those covenants are both, like, God's unconditional promises and conditions upon which those promises are built.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so the, that tension that we're trying to talk about is actually inherent in all of the covenants, and that tension isn't really resolved until we get to Christ, where... And even then, like, the covenant we have with J- with God is still conditional upon our faith in him.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Right? So it's like there's never a moment in the Biblical story where the blessings of God's covenant are not unconditionally promised, but at the same time are conditioned upon our trust and our belief in him, right?
David: Right. Yeah, no, I would agree with that. I think there, there is something intrinsic to the nature of, of the covenants that God makes with humanity, um, that point to why they are there in the first place. I think that God wants relationship and that God wants co-laborers and that God wants participants. Like, that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... goes all the way back to the Garden. Like, God, like, God did not-
Seth: Yeah, but-
David: ... just make people to do nothing, you know? Like, he wanted-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... them to exist alongside himself in a way.
Seth: Yeah. There's like a mutuality to our-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... relationship with God, and we've seen that throughout the Torah. Like, people will come to God saying, "Hey, there's this contingency that you d- that we did not s- s- you did not tell us about. What would you have us do?" So, like, with-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Zelophehad's daughters or with the men who are i- impure, uh, during Passover, they come, and they are making together laws for the land with God. Like, God has always wanted to be in a partnership with his people. That's part of what we're seeing here.
David: Yeah, definitely. I think one other thing I wanna point out as we're talking about this is the, the parallel that we can see between, um, the commandments, the tablets of the commandments that have been in the Ark of the Covenant up to this point, and then going into the land. Uh, so, uh, I was reading one commentator, uh, his name's Telford Work, and he, he talked about how the commandments had already been recorded, but they had not yet been received. Like, they had been written down-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... but the people had not yet believed them yet and started obeying them.
Seth: They'd been listened to-
David: And so-
Seth: ... but not obeyed. Yeah, yeah.
David: Exactly, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They had separated sh- the Shema, the, the, the command to listen, you know? And so th- they were carrying around the presence and territory of God with the commands of God in the center, and as the older generation broke those commands, they were exiled from the presence of God through death, right? The-
Seth: Right
David: ... I mean, we've s- we've seen this conditionality play out in the Book of Numbers, and now that they're going into the land, God is, is making the law central again, not necessarily, although it will be in the, the, uh, the Ten Commandments will be in the, the, the Ark of the Covenant. He is making them philosophically and theologically central to the life of the people by saying, "If you obey these commands, then we'll live together in this land."
Seth: So it-
David: And so-
Seth: So what you're saying-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is, like, there's, like, a re-emphasis or a new emphasis in Deuteronomy where there was this... I- in the old generation, they failed to take the law of God into their hearts in a certain way.
David: Yes.
Seth: And here in Deuteronomy, we see Moses trying to press the truth of God's law deeper and deeper into their hearts in a new, in a s- in some kind of new way. Is that w-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kinda what you're saying?
David: Yeah, definitely.
Seth: Okay.
David: I think, and I, and I think it's all meant to be these visual symbols of what God is trying to do with His people and the law. Like, He put the law inside the Ark of the Covenant, which was at the center of the camp, and He's like, "Look, I've revealed my will to you. Center your life around it."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then now He's saying, "As you go into this new land, center your life around my law."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And then even in the new, in the new covenant with Jesus, like, He's like, "A new command I give you." You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Love your neighbor as I have loved you," you know?
Seth: And maybe that's why here in Deuteronomy, and this is another important, like, facet of the conversation in Deuteronomy 4, is that it's not just laws and statutes, but it's also referred to as wisdom. So verse six-
David: Yes
Seth: ... "Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples," meaning the other nations, "who, when they hear all these statu- statutes, will say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. What great nation is there that a God is so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon Him?'"
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I think the, so I think what you're saying is one of the ways that Moses doesn't add to [laughs] the law, but, like, deepens Israel's understanding of the law is to take it and place it in their hearts as wisdom. This is the way that, uh, the Lord has designed the world to work, and when you live this way, the nations of the world will see how great our God is. They'll see that He-
David: Yes
Seth: ... comes near to you and lives with you. He, they'll see that He, you are a wise and understanding people, you're a nation of justice, and that your God is above all other gods.
David: Yes, and I, I love this passage so much that talks about... 'Cause this is one of those things I was talking about with the why of the law. Why do we obey the law? One of the reasons that, that Moses gives here is it's so that w- you might be seen as wise and understanding among the people so that they will then go and worship God. They'll say, "Who has a God like Israel does, who's so near to them," right? Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... they'll, they'll, they'll be astonished by God's nearness. And so it's like, I had some questions about this.
Seth: Okay.
David: 'Cause I think it's really interesting. So one, how does God's, uh, law, how does Israel obeying God's law show God's nearness? Like, [laughs] you know? Those things are very, they don't seem like they go together. But-
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You get what I mean? But I think the, I think the correlation is, oh, God gave you these laws. These are laws from God. He must have been really close. Like, as Moses talked to Him as one person talks to another, He must have been very near to actually speak to you and give you these laws. He's not some far-off god that you don't know what His will is and He seems capricious.
Seth: Right.
David: He's revealed Himself to you in His law.
Seth: And to go back to our comment about mutuality, it says, "W- what God is so near to us," verse 7, "as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon Him."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, there's an expectation that within the law of God, there's an expectation the people of God would come to God as well and pray to Him-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and God would respond from the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... from the cloud, from the temple, to their requests. Um, yeah.
David: Yeah, I love that. Okay, and then the other thing about the Go- God's nearness is, so all the other nations have idols, right? They have fake gods and idols a- and w- if Israel obeys the law, they're supposed to marvel at God's nearness, and, uh, when I read that, I was like, wait a second. Like, aren't idols really near? Like, they live in your house, some of them.
Seth: Right.
David: And they're made out of-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... the same material that, you know, you're used to, and they even are, like, projections of yourself and your society. They even look like you. So it's like, it seems like idols are very, very, very near, but he says that God is infinitely nearer, and the nations will, like, notice that. And I was like, man, how much nearer could God make Himself than the idols that were in people's homes? Like, and, and how was that going to be demonstrated through Israel's obedience to the law?
Seth: Right.
David: That was just an interesting question I, I, I had.
Seth: So you're saying, like, well, h- why, like, in the rest of the lands, they could have a little mini idol of their gods in their homes at any one time, and the God of Israel, as we're told [laughs] in verse 12, has no form, but yet spoke to them on the mountain. How is that God supposed to feel nearer than the one-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that you can place on your shelf? Is that the question-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you're asking?
David: Yeah, and, like, I, I have to feel like, so in, in chapter 4, uh, of 28, it says that their idols, uh, neither see nor hear nor eat nor smell. Like, their idols can't do anything and-
Seth: Right
David: ... by, by Is- by Israel obeying God's revealed law, they are showing that God is active. He's been talking-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and listening to their prayers and responding, and he accepts their sacrifice, right? Kind of like that idea of eating. Like, you know, he, it's a fragrant-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... aroma to him. He's smelling. Like, all of these laws are supposed to show God's nearness and activity in the world in a way that idolatry cannot.
Seth: So what Moses is saying to the new generation is that when you obey the laws of God, you prove that God is living and active and personal and close.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because whenever you obey the other gods, they do nothing. They say nothing.
David: Right.
Seth: They sit on your shelf, and that's it. You carve them out of a piece of wood, or you burn them. Like, there's nothing there. But when you obey God, he brings you into the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, when you obey God, he acts, he responds, he speaks. So obey. [laughs] Like, that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that kind of what we're s- uh, Moses is trying to impress? Like-
David: Yeah, definitely
Seth: ... we have a living God, so obey him.
David: Yeah. And I also think that, like, the physical, um, stuff of Israel actually living out God's law in the world manifests God's presence with people. Like, they are God's liaisons to the world. They are, they've been made in his image, and now they are g- been, now they've been given his will. So they are getting to bring God's presence to Earth in a way by living out his law. And Jesus and the other New Testament authors pick up on this idea in the New Testament. Um, you know, uh, it, it talks about, like, um, so li- live your life so holy among the Gentiles that they see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. You know, I think it's Paul that says that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then Jesus says that, um, "How will they know that I have been sent from the Father?" It's by your love for one another.
Seth: Right, right.
David: And it's like-
Seth: In John
David: ... as we, yeah, as we live out God's revealed will in the world, as we look like God, or in the present day, as we look like Jesus, we are proving to the world that Yahweh is a near God, that is so much better-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... than every other false god, idolatrous system, or false religion. We are proving to them-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that God is near and that God is good and wise because of the way we live. So that's amazing.
Seth: That's amazing. So when it says in verse six, "The nations of the world will say, 'This is a wise and understanding people,'" what you're saying is that's actually fulfilled in Jesus when he says-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... things like, "They will know me based on your love for one another." Like, it's the fulfillment of that command, not just by obeying the laws of God, but by following and trusting Jesus, who is the embodiment and the perfection of those laws, the fulfillment of those laws.
David: Yes.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yes. And then, and I think that the New Testament intensifies that promise because it's not only that they, that, [laughs] that, that they are like, oh, there is this God in heaven who must surely be near 'cause he's revealed himself with such good laws. We are actually called God's body here on Earth.
Seth: Mm. Yeah.
David: The body of Christ, and we are indwelt with his very actual presence. Like, he has invaded the world-
Seth: Right
David: ... in his actual presence, and so he's literally on Earth near us, ministering to people whenever we obey his law and love others as he has loved us.
Seth: I've heard it, it said this way. Like, in Israel, the way that God's gospel, whe- the good news of his laws was, like, his redemption of Israel was proclaimed was come and see. Come, look at Israel. See the wisdom and the justice of this nation. See the God that is there react- acting for, on their behalf. But for us, as Christians, it's go and tell. Like, we have the temple of God living inside of us. The nation of God is anywhere there is a church, and so we go to the nations of the world and proclaim his presence, and as we go there, the same thing happens. They see the goodness of the Lord, and they come to know him.
David: Yeah, definitely. I think that's, uh... Actually, I'm gonna just cut it there [laughs] and let that in. [gentle music]
Seth: Okay, so what we have then in this first, really the first eight verses of Deuteronomy f- four is Moses encouraging them, "Hey, if you obey, God will respond. If you obey, if you listen and obey, the Lord will come near to you. You will enter into the land." And then he takes rather a long time to say, "But take care. Make sure you beware of disobedience." [laughs]
David: Mm.
Seth: So, I mean, in verse nine he says, "Only take care and keep your soul diligently, lest you forget the things that your eyes have seen, lest they depart from your heart all the days of your life." Um, verse 15, "Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully since you saw no form on that day that the Lord spoke to you on Sinai. Uh, beware you act, beware lest you act corruptly," verse 16. Um, and then he goes on and talks about, at the very end, uh, this kind of prophecy that if they don't obey, they won't actually inherit the land. They'll be kicked out of the land. Uh, so yeah. So I wanna kind of focus in on this next section on not just the promise that God responds to obedience, but the promise that God will respond to disobedience as well.
David: Mm. Yeah, that's interesting.
Seth: And the-
David: So yeah, so what, what we talked about last section is if you obey, you enter the land, but now we're talking about if you disobey, you'll be kicked out of the land. That's the, the conditionality-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... collaborative relationship. Okay. So why does God not only respond to obedience but responds to disobedience? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and maybe-
Seth: That's a great question.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Well, because, I mean, [laughs] part of me feel like that's an obvious response. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's an obvious question, but it's also making me think a little bit more than I thought [laughs] it would. Like, the reason God responds to obedience is because it's right. Like, God has designed the world, God has created laws, and he expects them to be obeyed. And when you don't obey those thing- obey those laws, obey His created design, you obviously come afoul of God's creative purposes, but also His, like, his will and His desire for your life at all. Like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... you must obey. If God commands something, obedience should be your response, and if you disobey, you should expect punishment, or you should expect discipline, um, because that's the way He's designed things. That's the way He's... That's the way He wants you to live. Your creator's asking you of something, and you can't-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... live otherwise.
David: Yeah, so I'm hearing two answers in there. So the one answer I'm hearing is that God has designed the world in such a way that, um, His- obeying His will fits in with the fabric of creation. So this is kind of-
Seth: Right. That's the wisdom that we're talking
David: ... the wisdom side of it. Yep.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Uh, but and then, and, and so what he does is he blesses those who obey, uh, in, in generally speaking-
Seth: Right
David: ... in order, in order to emphasize the fact that they are living in harmony with Him.
Seth: So an example would be if you have a strong work ethic, you should expect to get paid well and for people to respect you. Like-
David: Sure. Yep
Seth: ... that's part of the created fabric of the universe. God's wisdom is if you work hard, good things happen.
David: Right.
Seth: If you don't kill your neighbor, you'll have a good relationship with your neighbor. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Right, right.
Seth: Like, that's the wisdom of the world.
David: Right. And then the opposite side of that is if you go antithetical or opposite to the fabric of creation, against the grain of the, of the world God's made, God's going to send punishment in order to emphasize the fact that you're breaking His law and breaking His good creation.
Seth: If you're greedy for money or wealth, you'll probably find that you alienate yourself from a lot of friends and family because you've stepped on them to get ahead yourself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You'll find yourself... Greedy people find themselves alone and miserable.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's the w- that's wisdom. The way that God's designed the world is for you not to be greedy and for you to be generous. When you run afoul with that, you experience loneliness, isolation, and ultimately death.
David: Right. And then the, the other thing I heard was that, uh, it was kind of like this God as lawgiver and judge, which was a different thing.
Seth: Yes.
David: And it was like God has given rules that must be obeyed, and when they're not, God has not only the right but maybe even, um, an obligation to punish people who don't obey those.
Seth: Yes.
David: Maybe unpack that one a little bit.
Seth: Well, if God says something is good and you don't do it, you're, you're disobeying. You're going against, you're rebelling against the sovereign of the universe, and He's de- He said there's consequences to that.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I mean, like, the... I think if a king makes an edict-
David: Right
Seth: ... and you disobey the king, that's called treason.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And you're, you're thrown in prison. [laughs] When the sovereign of the universe makes a decree and you disobey it, that's called treason-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and you're punished for it. Like, it's... I think that's the way that you should... Those are the two sides. Because God is both creator and lawgiver, both of those things are true all the time.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There are punishment when you don't obey his edicts, and there are the natural consequences for running afoul of the way that God's designed the world.
David: Yeah. And I think we need to then take those two ideas and, and kind of localize them into the, uh, the, the time and space that this all was spoken because this is f- this is definitely for us, you know, Romans tells us that, but this is also for Israel. And God was making a covenant people to take them into a covenant land. And so what he was wanting to do was, if God is really about the business of recreating Eden so that he can live alongside human beings as covenant partners, then what he's doing is he, he wants his territory, his land, to be free from evil, to be free from pain, to be free from violence. He wants it to be free from illness and punishment and wickedness.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And in order to do that, he needs a people who are going to, uh, live well in the land, to act justly and equitable toward- towards one another. And, and, and, like, that is the people that he wants to live with. And so if they obey all those, they'll live in the land because that is how Eden, the, the, the-
Seth: Right
David: ... the garden temple of God functions. If they don't, they'll be kicked out because that's not the new world that God is creating.
Seth: Yes. I think all that's true generally, and that's what we should think and have in the back of our mind. But really specifically in Deuteronomy 4:4, this command to keep watch and to take care and to not disobey is really tightly linked specifically to idolatry.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So twice already we're told, "You saw no form on, on Mount Sinai, so do not make yourself a carved image," verse 16, "for yourself in the form of any figure or likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, the likeness of any fish that's in the water and under the earth." So, or, or "if anything in the skies and the heavens."
David: Yes.
Seth: So specifically, Go- Go- [laughs] And what's funny about all that language is that all that's taken from Genesis 1.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So, like, all those, like, little phrases. So God is saying, "Take care, because if you do not take care to obey my laws, what you will end up doing is taking and putting in my garden images and idols that are false." And I think potentially what s- we're supposed to think of here, we talked about this all the way back in, um, Exodus 20 when we talked about the Ten Commandments for the first time, is the only image that we are told that exists are human beings. They are God's representatives.
David: Right. We are the image of God, the idol of God. Yeah.
Seth: And then Jesus, too, is the image and the idol of God.
David: Yep.
Seth: So what people are-
David: In whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell. Yeah.
Seth: So what we're seeing, I think, here in this, like, make sure that you obey, do not create false images, do not create false idols, is the idea that in God's garden, there should be only one representative G- of God, and that is Jesus Christ, and that is those who are made in his image. Right? Like we are-
David: Yes
Seth: ... new creations in Christ Jesus. In the new Eden, we will be new creations in Christ, the one image and idol of God, and there shall be no others.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think- We can talk about, like, justice and equity and making sure we don't disobey those laws and commands, but specifically here, we- Moses has in mind, like, do not create for yourself false idols, false images of who God is and what he's like.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Anywhere, anything in your heart, otherwise you will not be the new creation. You will not enter into the new Eden, because there's only one image, Jesus Christ.
David: Yeah, totally. Uh, yeah, there's two things I wanna pick up on what you've said. One is, uh, these- these commands to take care, to keep your soul diligently, do start back in verse nine before the transition statement, "Therefore, watch yourselves carefully."
Seth: Right.
David: So I do think he- he is wanting us to take all of the laws and commandments that he's been talking about since verse one, and to take care to obey them. Uh-
Seth: Yes
David: ... he even, he even mentions all of the Ten Commandments in verse 13 before he starts talking about idolatry.
Seth: Yes, yeah.
David: So this is the big- the big mamma jamma, obey all of this and you'll be creating this new Garden of Eden with God, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: But then he drills down, like you said very well, into, um, idol making, uh, which is- which really cover some of the first three commandments, you know? [laughs] Uh, and, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and so it's a big deal. Uh, and I loved the image of this being, like, uh, pulling on the Garden of Eden imagery, where it was like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, on day one, God made this, and on day two, God made this. And it's like you could imagine God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam just walking around with a lizard in his hand that God made, and just, like, being like, "This is the creator of the world."
Seth: [laughs]
David: And just, like, worshiping it. [laughs] Like, how stupid is that? And I think that's the image he's trying to make. Like, God made all these things in the garden. Remember that story?
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, imagine if they just started worshiping rocks instead. Like, how dumb.
Seth: They think the fruit, all my happiness comes from this fruit.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I'm like, the- like, the creator is walking right next to you. [laughs]
David: Right. And so, uh, I wanna, like, combine all of those into, especially, a- and especially this idolatry one, into- into a place that I think would be really cool for us to talk about how Jesus fulfills them. Um, because, uh, the reason why there is still punishment for sin today, and the reason why when Jesus returns to punish sin once and for all, to separate the weeds and the wheat, the sheep from the goats, the saved and the unsaved, um, the reason why he's going to do that is because he is creating a new heavens and a new earth in which man and God live together and there is no evil. There is no inequity. There is no violence. There is no pain. And- and so, like, all the Ten Commandments are- are creating this perfect environment in which we are, um, living like God on God's earth.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then what's amazing is Revelation talks about the fact that when Jesus comes and makes this space, wh- wh- where's the, where's the temple? Where's any other image other than the one image of God? I- is only in Jesus Christ. He- he fills all in all. Uh, even the sun and the stars go away, which are mentioned here, because only Christ alone has light. He, he so overpowers it. And so it's just amazing that, like, all of this that God i- is wanting to create here through Israel on the banks of the Jordan as they enter Canaan, is created ultimately in Jesus in the new heavens and the new earth.
Seth: Why don't idolaters get to live in the kingdom?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like, what would it mean for God to say, "There are... You can have no images"? So let's just say we... Let's just say we've entered into the new kingdom.
David: Okay.
Seth: We've entered into the new Eden. The only image there should be is that of God himself, of Jesus Christ. What would it mean for somebody to love an idol? Like, why can't an idolater live in that space?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense? Like, I'm trying to, like... I wanna stay in the imagery of idolatry.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There... Like, what- what would... Why can't a non-believer, an idolater of something, somebody who believes in something that is God that's not, be in a space where no idols are allowed?
David: Hmm. Man, I- I have two answers. I'm not in love with either of them.
Seth: Okay.
David: But, uh, one is, it goes back to the- the wisdom conversation we had, that there is something in the fabric of this new kingdom that is God is central, and there is no other god. And it's like everyone walks around with this- this assumption, and this underlying presupposition that God in his image is at the center, and if you have this one person walking around looking anywhere else but the center, he is breaking that- that system-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that all revolves around the one image of God in Jesus. Um, yeah.
Seth: I can imagine, like, that little scenario s- you set up, like, in this- this hypothetical [laughs] Garden of Eden-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that we've set up-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where there's a p- bunch of people worshiping God, but also-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a bunch of people picking up lizards and saying, "Look at this lizard. This is what brings me happiness and joy. Study its scales. Look at its claws. Look at its feet. It can climb up walls. Isn't this amazing?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, I- I can imagine, like, somebody worshiping the lizard also drawing other people to worship the lizard as well, and say, "Look at how amazing it is," and bringing other people to, like, stare at it. And all that time, the creator of the lizard stands right next door, and he's not happy [laughs] or, like, because people are... I'm- I'm trying to f- I- I really want this image to work, but maybe it won't. But, like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that's bad, right? That's bad [laughs] for the creator to be overshadowed by his creation.
David: Right. Isn't that what Paul says in Romans 1, that they worshiped the creature rather than the creator?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's a-
Seth: And that's what-
David: That's a, that's a big deal.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] And that's what, uh, he says in... Deuteronomy says too, like the likeness of any animal or any of the creatures-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... that- that God made. Maybe the really simple way to say it is in verse 39, 4:39, "Know therefore today and lay it on your heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath. There is no other."
David: Hmm.
Seth: "Therefore, keep His commands and His statutes."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so-
David: Yeah.
Seth: No, no, go for it.
David: Uh, yeah. I just, there's- there's something I- I was trying to save it for its own little section, but it feels like it's creeping into this conversation, is I, as I was reading, rereading through this this morning, I was struck with how often the fear of God is talked about in relationship to the laws.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That, that the laws are giv- that the, that the laws that are given, and in the way in which the laws were given namely with fire and smoke and with God's voice coming out from a cloud from a mountaintop. Like, as they teach their children these laws, and as they remember these laws and commands, they are to fear the Lord, and they're to remember that God is a consuming fire and a jealous God. And it's like, why can't there be idols in this new kingdom God's creating? It's because God would destroy them and everyone who's worshiping them. He's a consuming fire and a jealous God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, there's something about the laws that, that God has given us that are meant to show us God's heart for us and God's heart for His own glory.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: That there are, there is no other God like Him, and He will not abide any other, uh, rivals, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: He has no rivals.
Seth: Verse 10, "Gather the people to me that I may let them hear my words so that they may learn to fear me all the days they live on the earth."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I think what this is doing for me then is saying, if you are an idolater living in this perfect garden of... this hypothetical Garden of Eden where you have the creator of the world standing right there, but you're obsessed with the lizard, obsessed with the fruit, what you're actually showing is that you don't fear God. You don't respect God.
David: Yes.
Seth: You don't desire to worship God. And ultimately then, you will have no place in His garden temple because all those who don't fear God will not be in His new Eden, will not be in the new nation. Is that what k-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is that, like, fear of the Lord, like, it equals belief in the Lord. Fear of the Lord equals trust in the Lord. Fear of the Lord means I won't create other idols. It means I'll worship one God alone.
David: Mm.
Seth: Is that what you're s-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... kind of getting at? Is that what you're-
David: Y- yeah, definitely. And I think maybe this is something that can stand in the gap here for us. So, like, we've been talking a little bit about the, the separation of listening and obeying. The, the, we wanna, we wanna separate grace and, uh, earned obedience and the rewards thereof. We wanna, we wanna separate, like, being able to live in the land, but not necessarily being perfect. Like, we... A- and I'm just, like, wondering if there's this why underneath the law that we have really glazed over, especially as 21st century Christians, and that's this fear of the Lord, that we, that, that when we read the law, um, we are meant to be struck by how big and powerful God is so that we might fear Him. Um, like I was, I was just in Minneapolis this weekend preaching to a church camp, and it was like 500 kids there, and I just preached through Exodus 32 and 34. And it was really interesting. Friday night, right off the bat, I've- I've not been up on stage for more than five minutes, and I'm in Exodus 19 talking about God coming down on the mountain with scorching fire and f- you know?
Seth: Yeah
David: And, like, the kids' eyes are just, like, huge. And they're like, "What?" Uh, usually the youth, the youth-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... lessons are just, like, sparkles and rainbows, and this guy's talking about a very powerful God.
Seth: A volcano erupting in my face.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: But it, but it, um, I mean, the whole weekend people were talking about and, like, thanking me, which I don't know why, but they were like, "Thank you for not giving us fluff and for-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... actually preaching the word." And I was like, man, I think people in, in a sense experienced part of the fear of God because He was presented as the-
Seth: What do you think-
David: Yeah, as this text presented Him
Seth: ... help me, help me understand fear more 'cause I, I think I understand it. I have a lot of synonyms in my mind that I go through, but, like, if we were to just to look at Israel's history-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and just to s- let's just say, like, as, as this chapter comes to an end and as we pick it up next time, fear is central to obedience. Fear the Lord so that you may obey. Like, what is fear, and why-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... does it drive us to obedience?
David: So here, here's my answer, and it's not-
Seth: Okay
David: ... gonna be maybe the one that most people have heard. Uh-
Seth: Okay
David: ... fear, the best synonym I can give for fear in this context is fear. [laughs] And, and here's why I say that. I think I have-
Seth: Like being afraid.
David: Being afraid.
Seth: Like being s-
David: Yes.
Seth: Being scared.
David: Being scared. Here's why, here's why. Uh, I, I'll, I'll have to find the exact verse later, but I, I [laughs] just read it a little bit ago. And God, God talks about the fact that when they heard God's voice from the mountain, uh, they were so afraid, they had fear of the Lord, that they sent Moses up alone on the mountain. They said, "You go talk to Him. We don't wanna talk to Him. We're too afraid." And I always read that story as a people's lack of faith, that they didn't see that God was both holy-
Seth: Right, right
David: ... but also gracious. Like, they weren't seeing all of God. But I was immediately rebuked by this passage because it commended them and said, "I wish that you would always have this fear of me in you so that you will obey."
Seth: Mm.
David: And it was like they were so afraid that they did not wanna go near this god. That's terror. That is being scared. And yet it is that fear, it's that terror that leads to obedience. And it's like we don't like to talk about the fact that, like, th- like, God's power and, you know, the threat of punishment-
Seth: The, the verse you're talking about is chapter 5:29. And this is actually a really s- strange verse because this is, like, God's heart. Like, God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is directly speaking, and I don't think it's recorded in Exodus, but it says this-
David: No
Seth: ... "Oh, that..." This is God saying, "Oh," which is, like, it's such an emotive word already.
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Oh, that Israel had such a heart as this always to fear me and to keep my commandments, that I might go well with them and their descendants forever." Like, I was struck by that too. It was like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... oh, God's heart, the thing that makes Him go, "Oh, I wish that was true-"
David: Mm
Seth: ... "is for the people to fear Him."
David: Yeah.
Seth: To be afr- and you're saying that means to be afraid of Him.
David: Well, I mean, the-
Seth: But-
David: Yeah, the, th- 'cause the context in which that's given is th- when they would not go near Him on the mountain.
Seth: B- okay, but, okay, I've got different types of fear in my mind.
David: Okay.
Seth: So, like, I can be afraid of something But still want something.
David: Like, like what?
Seth: I can be afraid of talking to my boss about a conflict I'm having with another employee because there's a lot on the line, and I respect my boss a lot, and I res- res- respect this other employee a lot. And I go to him fearful, but also hopeful and expectant of resolution. I could also be afraid, like a jump scare in the middle of a horror movie [laughs] and like... Do, do you know what I mean?
David: Yes.
Seth: Like there's this... So I'm trying to figure out, like especially because there's so many invitations, like for us to draw close to God, to experience His intimacy and His blessing and His goodness and His kindness, like fear doesn't s- like being afraid of God doesn't seem to also... Would normally mean that I don't wanna go near Him. Does that make sense? Like is there a type of fear that-
David: It-
Seth: Like y- yeah, but I think-
David: Because I think, I think you're combining like biblical categories that's causing a tension that doesn't need to be there.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because we're not talking about why do we draw near to God, right? That's a different conversation. We don't draw near to God-
Seth: Right
David: ... because we're afraid of Him. We're, we're talking about why do we obey the law.
Seth: [laughs] Sure.
David: So we're like, I, I think we're-
Seth: Because we're afraid of God
David: ... I think you're putting together two things that don't need to go together. And let me double down on, on the, the context here of why I think it's fear, and because they were afraid for their lives. Listen, listen to this. Um, they said, "Behold," this is verse 24 of chapter five. "Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of fire." So there's all this stuff happening. "This day we have seen God speak with man, and man still live. Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us. If we hear the voice of the Lord our God anymore, we shall die. For who is there of all flesh that has heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of fire as we have and yet still lives? So Moses, you go near the God and you speak to Him." And God says that they were right, that if they heard Him anymore, if they got any closer, they would die. So they were afraid for their lives.
Seth: Wow.
David: Like, this is, this is fear. And, and I, and I don't know why it's something we need to shy away from. Maybe if that's... If you're, you're feeling a pull and a tension here why you don't wanna talk about it as fear, as fear, maybe help me understand why this is bad and you don't want to associate this kind of fear with obedience.
Seth: Be- I think because I don't wanna be with a person I'm constantly afraid of, [laughs] you know? Like, I'm trying to like... There i- 'cause God is a merciful, gracious, slow-to-anger God.
David: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Seth: And that draws me to Him because He's redeemed me. If I was an Israelite, He'd redeem me out of Egypt, so I want to be near Him.
David: [laughs]
Seth: At the same time, I'm scared of being close to Him. You know what?
David: Why do you keep... Okay, but why do you keep talking about being near God or not? I'm talking about why we obey God.
Seth: I know, but it's like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... it's, it's... They're not unconnected because what are the people afraid of? They're afraid of God's presence.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, when God's presence rests on the mountain, they're afraid. And more than that, the presence that rests on the mountain is now inside me by virtue of the Holy Spirit.
David: Right.
Seth: That doesn't cause me fear. Like, you know, I'm not afraid of the Holy Spirit that lives inside me, like it's gonna consume me from within. Are you saying I should be?
David: I think that there are two things that are very helpful here to understand that the Bible doesn't hold in tension, and it's that the people were afraid, right? And then Moses himself went up into the presence of God, and then in chapter 33 asked for more of the presence of God. And yet when that presence of God showed up, what did he do? He hit the deck in fear. He buried his face in the ground 'cause he was afraid. Like, th- like, there is this... We, I just, what I'm trying to do is press into this to get us to rediscover that God is not a fluffy cloud that we just pass through and we have rainbows shooting out of our eyes when we do.
Seth: Ooh, okay. You know what? That-
David: Like, that God is an all-consuming fire. You know, like that's in the text here.
Seth: No, no.
David: Uh, yeah.
Seth: I, I mean, I d- I don't have a problem with, like the th- th- with fear m- meaning something that causes us to tremble, to desire to obey, but like what the most common command in scripture is, "Do not fear." Particularly after people come into contact with God's presence or one of his messengers. When an angel shows up, people hit the deck. When God shows up with, uh, with Saul on the road to Damascus, what's the first command? "Do not fear," even though the presence of God is right there. So, like I'm trying to wrestle with, like I want fear to motivate me properly, but I don't want it to, I don't wanna overcorrect my, and say I must be afraid of God at all times, because it doesn't seem like I should be afraid of God at all times in one sense. In one sense it does, in another sense, uh, it doesn't. So I, I, I'm trying-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I'm looking for nuance in the word fear. I want a fear that motivates me-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... towards obedience, but also a f- fear that draws me closer into His presence. Does that make sense? Like, I want both of those things.
David: It does. It makes a lot of sense. So let's, let's answer this question then. And I think this will help us. Should... Would you say that a sinner, an unrepentant sinner who has not accepted Jesus, um, should they be afraid to enter God's presence?
Seth: Yes.
David: That would be an appropriate fear because they've not obeyed God's commands, therefore they should be afraid of His presence. Would that be true?
Seth: Yes. Yes.
David: Um, on the flip side, since we have, um, put our faith in Jesus to, um, hide ourselves in the cleft of His rock to keep us from the, um, the, the powerful consuming God on the mountain, and He has obeyed the commands for us, and He's making us people who will one day perfectly obey His commands when we are actually in the presence of God, should we who have put our faith in that Jesus fear the presence of God in the same way that a sinner should?
Seth: No.
David: No.
Seth: We can walk boldly before the throne of grace.
David: Yes, exactly right. So can fear be a motivation for faith, obedience, perseverance, and yet when that, when we get into the presence of God, doesn't that transform into boldness-
Seth: Mm
David: ... because of the, the fear in our, the fear that we've been living with, the, the reverence, the submission, the awe, the, the, the words that people wanna substitute for fear.
Seth: Right.
David: But the fear that we've been living with that has motivated our faith and our perseverance and our obedience, that leads us into fearless entrance.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Like, and so anyway, I think there's, I think there's a fear of God, and, and we need to-
Seth: So-
David: We need to say the fear of God, the Psalmist says, is clean.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And so it's like, it's a good thing, uh, and it can motivate us to obey these commands, but it doesn't keep us out from God's presence. It actually pushes us farther in-
Seth: Mm
David: ... once we know that those, those commandments have been met. And for those of us who are in Jesus, that kind of fear of punishment is gone. We are not talking about a fear of punishment. For those who are in Christ, there is no condemnation. We are talking about a fear that is somehow different than we have human categories for. So that's why I don't wanna run to, like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... do we have an earthly example for this? No, we don't. Because that is the beauty of the gospel and the presence of God, that it will be the most frightful thing we've ever seen in our lives, but we will walk into it with joy and boldness because we are covered in Christ, and that which is a terror to us will become our greatest joy. Like-
Seth: Mm
David: ... it's an amazing flip-flop based on-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... who you are in Christ changes your perception of the presence of God.
Seth: So would you say, then, that as an Israelite, you could, like, actually the only response you could have is fear that is afraid. Like, you will always be afraid of God's presence because your sacrifices are actually never enough to cover up the sins. B- the blood of bulls or goats is not enough to atone for the sins of mankind. There's a sense that there's always the looming fear of punishment for an Old Testament saint.
David: Yes. You have, you've struck something huge here. This, this, we should've started here. The reason why the, our categories are getting confused is because we are talking about drawing near to the actual presence of God as New, New Testament believers. That right was reserved for-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the high priest. [laughs] He could go into the Holy of Holies. Like, that was reserved for Moses on Mount Sinai. One person, one representative for the whole people, like, called out by God alone, was allowed to come into the presence of God. Everyone else, it was right for them to be afraid, to obey, and to keep their distance.
Seth: True.
David: But now in Christ, [laughs] that is different. The, the Holy of Holies curtain has been torn open, and we can walk boldly into His presence-
Seth: Mm
David: ... because these lawful, th- these law re, these law requirements have been met in Jesus. So the story is different.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: It really is.
Seth: So, so in Christ, because of Jesus, we can enter into the flaming top of Mount Sin- of, of Mount Sinai.
David: Sinai.
Seth: So of Mount Sinai. We, we can enter into it unafraid because we are covered by the blood of Jesus's sacrifice that atones-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for us perfec- perfectly. What does, it does still cause fear-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because we're always gonna wonder when we're l- like, standing next to the sun, if our technology will hold. [laughs] Like, like, will our spaceship that gets us to the sun hold in the, the fires of God's holiness? But ultimately, we can sit there and gaze at the power and the beauty of God in a way that the Old Testament saints never could. Because of Jesus, we get to stand in the middle of the fear of God and rejoice.
David: Yes, absolutely. And I love, too, that I think when we do, we will find ourselves being like Moses, who he went up into the thick, dark cloud and asked for more. Like, he wanted more of God's glory, Exodus 33:18. Like, he wanted more of God's glory.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, like, we can get, like, we could enter into the, that place of fear that no one else would even dare look at, and that they didn't even wanna hear from anymore. We could enter into it and then be like, "More. Like, I want more of this."
Seth: Right.
David: "This is so good." Um, it's crazy.
Seth: And then I think maybe-
David: I've never thought about it like this
Seth: ... just to play, to play on the fear and fearless thing, it's like oftentimes we are afraid of obeying God's commands because we fear man and not God.
David: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Seth: It's like we, there's a special fear we have of, this is what Philippians talks about, like, we fear man but not God. We are afraid of acting against the culture or against our family systems, or we're afraid of, uh, of even disobeying just the expectation of our churches when they're not biblical. You know, like, we're afraid of, of people and their expectations to such an extent that we are fearful of obeying God's commands because we're... No, I'm try- I'm m- getting confused now.
David: No, no, no.
Seth: But-
David: You're making, you're actually making a lot of sense. I, I think-
Seth: Oh
David: ... what you're saying is, I love this, like, do we fear God or do we fear man? And, like, that is going to determine what we obey.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, if fear of man-
Seth: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. [laughs]
David: Yeah, it's just... No, you're being really helpful, actually. Yeah, it's like fear of man is going to lead us to break God's commands. Fear of God is going to lead us to obey God's commands despite what man's are.
Seth: Right. We will be fearless in obeying God's commands when we fear God alone.
David: Mm-hmm. Yes.
Seth: That's-
David: Yeah. I think that's really helpful 'cause I, I understand intuitively how my will is controlled by the fear of man. I can think of a social situation, right? Uh, and, and I'm like, "Man, I really want to do this, but I'm not going to because that would make me look bad," or, you know, "So and so would judge me," or, "I might get kicked out of this place." I understand that intuitively in social situations because of fear of man.
Seth: Right.
David: And, like, I can also understand how I can be afraid of man, but still be around all the people that I'm around, you know, be near them, as we were talking about.
Seth: Right.
David: Um, but I don't, yeah, but that's like, I don't know if I've, we don't think about God's constant gaze on us-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... watching us and being like, "Will this action cause God to kick me out?" You know, that's kind of what-
Seth: Right
David: ... that's the paradigm Israel was supposed to be living with.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, but they weren't. They were, they ended up living with fear of man.
Seth: Okay, so this might be a good place to end this episode.
David: Yes.
Seth: We didn't really dive into the specifics of the Ten Commandments or-
David: No, I think we should, I think we should start with chapter five next week. We'll just-
Seth: So just consider-
David: This'll be chapter four
Seth: ... this as chapter four, and kind of like a sneak peek at the fear of God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... which is really talked about more in chapters five and six, but, like, this is a helpful place as we move forward.
David: Yep. So anyway, yeah, so we'll kick off with the Ten Commandments round two next week. Uh, and, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm excited about that. We haven't got to talk about the Ten Commandments in, like, half a year or longer, so.
Seth: It's about time.
David: It's about time. [laughs]
Seth: It's about time. Thank you guys for listening in.
David: All right, everyone. Yep, thank you for listening, and we will, uh, we'll see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
