Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We are glad you're joining us. Seth, how you doing today?
Seth: I'm doing excellent. I recently purchased the new Pokemon game-
David: Oh, boy. Oh, no
Seth: ... and me and my daughter have had a great time. [laughs]
David: Oh, man. Well, hey, so, uh, before Seth and I came on air, we were, we were talking a little bit, um, about the feel of these Deuteronomy podcasts. Um, w- we've been... We, we go back and listen through, um, you know, after we record to make sure that we're making sense and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... if there's anything we can do to improve, and also to remind us of what we've said to help keep the thread tight.
Seth: Or if we forget something or like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we said we would, said we would address something but didn't, actually do it-
David: Right
Seth: ... for episodes, stuff like that, yeah.
David: Yeah. And so, um, and so we're, we're, we're... As we're listening back through these episodes, we're noticing that they're feeling different. And so I don't know if you guys listening to this through Deuteronomy have felt that they feel a little different too, and we just wanted to address it, why that might be.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So go, Seth, you had some good thoughts I think.
Seth: Yeah, I think, I mean, I was trying to figure out, like, w- what... [sighs] 'Cause they feel like, I think you mentioned, like, they feel like we're maybe making, like, less in-depth analysis of a-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... particular text and making, like, larger flyovers. Like, what does it mean to fear the Lord? What does it mean to repeat the law?
David: Mm.
Seth: What does it mean to, like, live actually this, like, yearly cycle of remembrance-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and living and whatever else? What is it, the nature of obedience? And so I've been, as I've been reflecting on that, I was like, man, is it, are we actually being faithful to the text? Because in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, it was like, okay, these four chapters tell us this one story.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And here's a really kind of interesting way that the New Testament authors pick up on these threads here and complete the narrative.
David: Right.
Seth: And we haven't done that with as much detail or as much clarity, I feel, in these ones.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And I th- wonder if the case is because that's the way Deuteronomy functions.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, Deuteronomy assumes you've read, uh, the first four books of the Torah, and is actually just recapping a lot of those things-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and packaging them differently, and forcing Israel to think about them really more broadly-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... not in the details of their history.
David: Right.
Seth: But, like, let's replay the last several hundred years in, like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a brief moment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I'm wondering, like, if the way that, the reason they feel different is because, like, we are actually doing what the Book of Deuteronomy demands.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like reflecting on hundreds of years of history-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... not moments within history.
David: Yeah. I think that's really helpful, and I think that, uh, uh, that's... I 100% agree with that. I think that is why that feels different, and why we feel compelled to do these more, like, thematic flyovers of fear of the Lord, like you mentioned. Um, I think the other reason is this is the first time that all the action is taking place in one spot by one guy at one moment. Like, this is Moses'-
Seth: Yeah, that's true. Yeah
David: ... Moses' feet are still, he's just giving a speech, and that's all that's happening. All the action is that this is a speech, and we're used to, like, traveling through wildernesses and having these moments where the ground opens up, and there's all this stuff happening.
Seth: God makes light out of nothing. Yeah, like-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... there's always action, like, that's actually happening on the page.
David: Yeah. So anyway, I, yeah, we just wanted to name that, um, and, uh, and just it... I don't know if, if any of you guys listening are feeling that. We wanted to, we wanted to name it, and if nothing else, just for our own conscience [laughs] we wanted to name it.
Seth: Like, yeah, we want to name it, and also I think, like, we wanna make sure that we're being faithful to the text. Like, are we doing s- like, were we misleading you guys or misleading ourselves-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or being lazy by not-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, drilling down to the details? And it could be that we're being lazy, but I think [laughs] that we're, I think the way... Because we are studying and it feels different because the text itself is different.
David: Yeah. And that's fine.
Seth: I think that that's happening.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: So, yeah. Anyway, there's the, there's your preface for the episode.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, all right. So-
Seth: Self-reflective thoughts.
David: Self-reflective thoughts. Um, and, and, and I'll, I'll add one more preface. If anyone's like, "David's voice in the room sounds different," it's because I'm in San Diego recording on a-
Seth: Ooh
David: ... a desktop microphone, uh, because I'm at the Evangelical Theological Society annual meeting-
Seth: Wow
David: ... to go and listen to a bunch of scholars read papers that they wrote all year. Because the theme this year for the, um, the entries is Christ in all of scripture.
Seth: What I love is how, like, excited you are. It's like this is clearly, like, a fun trip for you. [laughs] Like, and most people are like, "I wanna read PhDs, PhDs," like, trying to read their papers to me.
David: It's gonna be amazing.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I'm, like, itching to get... Right when we get off this call, I'm running over to the c- to the conference center for the first reading, so I'm very excited.
Seth: Well, good luck over there.
David: So anyway. So I apologize if the room sounds a little echoey or anything like that. I've got a pillow sitting in front of my microphone to try to dampen some of the echo. [laughs]
Seth: That's amazing.
David: So anyway, all right. So we are in Deuteronomy 10 through 11. I know last, uh, last time we were in, um, 7 to 9, we mentioned that 7 to 11 is kind of a literary unit that we broke up-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because there's so many gospel tenders or gospel nuggets-
Seth: Gospel nuggets, yeah
David: ... to talk about. [laughs] And so, um, to, so today, um, we left off, last we, last we left off, Moses was talking about the, um, golden calf-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and reminding Israel of their sin in order to chasten them from feeling like they were special because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... God chose them because they're so good and so righteous, and he's like, "No, you really sucked actually, and God still chose you 'cause he's gracious."
Seth: And the way that chapter 9 ends is with Moses praying to the Lord for mercy. Uh, and grace towards Israel despite their sins.
David: Right.
Seth: So I lay— verse 25 of chapter nine, "So I lay prostrate before the Lord for those 40 days and 40 nights because the Lord said he would destroy you."
David: Mm.
Seth: So chapter nine ends with Moses praying, "God, please do not destroy your people." Chapter 10 begins with God's response to Moses's prayer.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Moses prays for 40 days and 40 nights that God would not kill the people of Israel, and the way God responds to Moses's prayer is by giving him the Ten Commandments.
David: Hm.
Seth: Which we should stop and think about that for a second-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because I was struck today as I w- like if I'm so blind, what do you hear when you hear that? God's response to Moses's prayer is the Ten Commandments.
David: I mean, my initial response, I don't know, it's, it's not like a gut response, it's more of maybe an educated or thoughtful one [laughs] but, uh, I hadn't thought about that question actually. Um, but the first thing that I thought of was that the law is gracious. Like, the law is an act-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of grace, and I, I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I often want to disregard that. Um-
Seth: Yes
David: ... uh, [laughs] but the law is gracious. It's-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it's, it's a way that God has given us to escape our sin and live in community with him. Now, we've, we fail to meet that test, but it is-
Seth: Right
David: ... grace. What about you?
Seth: I, I, I literally wrote... I, I said the law is how Israel is saved-
David: Mm
Seth: ... from God's judgment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so I was like, I don't think I'm used to positively thinking about the law.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, Paul will talk about it positively, and it's always like this kind of puzzle for me. Like, why? I, I mean, we- they failed it. It wasn't enough for them. They weren't able to keep it. Purely negative. But here, the law is God's gracious response and the prescription for their salvation. Like, the law is salvation for the people of Israel. It is their good news.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It is their gospel. And so, like, I wanted to pause there, even in just that first verse [laughs] and think about, like, why is the law good news?
David: Yeah. Oof. I mean, I guess, uh, uh, let's, let's talk about it. Several, several reasons that come to mind. One, uh, it shows us... It's good news because it shows us who God is. Like we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... see that God is a, a good God who deserves all worship, who is faithful and hates murder and wants us to not live our lives as covetous, envious creatures.
Seth: We, we talked about in, back in Exodus 20 that like, the fact that God says do not kill means that God is a God of life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The fact that he says do not covet means he actually owns all things, and he's willing to give them to you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The fact that he says do not lie means he's a God of truth and will never speak falsely towards you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, the reason the law exists is it tells us about God and his character-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... his good news towards us.
David: I think-
Seth: It is good news towards us
David: ... another, another reason it's good news is because it tells us how to live well in the world. Um, you know, it, it, it's a way to blessing, that we actually can, uh, live a good life and, um, and, and so it's, it's, it's just... I- I'm trying to separate that from n- maybe the, the fulfillment of the promises that are tied to obedience-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and just say, like, it's good to live this way ontologically. Like, by itself-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... it's just good to live this way.
Seth: This like, you'll live a better life obeying the law than you would-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... not obeying the law.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is that what you're saying?
David: It's wisdom. Yeah, it's wisdom.
Seth: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
David: Yeah. Totally.
Seth: And all throughout Deuteronomy, let's consider... It's called wisdom, the first couple chapters.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. It's wisdom.
David: Yep. And so then, uh, obviously it's... then all, all the blessings and promises tied to the law are good news, that if you obey my commands, it will go well with you, and you will live long in the land, and I will prosper you and be with you. And so it's like th- th- because of what is tied to obedience to the law, it's good news.
Seth: Right.
David: Um-
Seth: It's good news because God promises when you obey, I will bless you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like, and the law is not separated from those blessings. I think that's one thing, another thing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... that I kept picking up on was, I mean, obeying the law is always tied to two things, either a curse for not, for disobeying [laughs]
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or a blessing for obeying. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, it's not like obeying the law is not separate from the blessing that comes with it or the curse that comes from not doing it. So maybe the way to say, obeying the law comes with blessing, disobedience comes with cursing. That might sound really obvious, but, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's actually really good news. Like, when you obey the law, God promises to provide for you, send rain, bring crops, provide victory in battle. Like, that's good news. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's good news.
David: Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, if we were gonna ask is there, is... Does Jesus do a similar thing in, in this? Like, we have Moses interceding for us for 40 days and 40 nights, and then there's a giving of the law. That's good news for the people. I mean, that reminds me of Matthew-
Seth: You mean the Sermon on the Mount.
David: Yeah, exactly. I mean Matthew 4:5.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah. So Ma- you know, Jesus goes to the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, um, and is tempted by Satan, but really that is him being our intercessor. He is going and succeeding, uh, in temptation where we failed so that he could arbiter between us. Um, and so he goes and intercedes for us for 40 days and 40 nights, and then comes and gives a new law on the mountain, the Sermon on the Mount.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And what is, what's the first word that he says?
Seth: Blessing.
David: Blessed. [laughs]
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Here's a blessing for you for the, from the law. Like-
Seth: So it's-
David: ... this is good news for you
Seth: ... so when Moses goes on the mountain, prays for 40 days and 40 nights, he comes and gives the Ten Commandments as good news.
David: Right.
Seth: The proclamation of what life should be like in the Kingdom of God in the new, the new Eden, in Canaan, and when Jesus does the same, he comes... This is, this is what the good news of what life like in my kingdom.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's super, super helpful. And what's crazy there, he doesn't talk about his... Like, I, I wanna make sure we s- his, we don't get the kingdom without Jesus's substitutionary death-
David: That's right
Seth: ... for us. But Jesus, in that moment, doesn't feel it's necessary to talk about. Like, the law itself in that moment is good news for people who are mourning, people who are oppressed, people who are, uh, lowly.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I'm trying to think of all the beatitudes, the way he-
David: Right. Yeah
Seth: ... the way it lays out, but, like, it's good news for them because that kingdom is coming.
David: Yep.
Seth: The, the thing about Romans 7, so then the law is holy-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and the commandment is holy and righteous and- Good. Like, Paul, like, says it explicitly in 1 Timothy 8. Uh, 1:8. Not 8. Uh, he says, "Now we know that the law, the Torah, is good if one uses it legitimately."
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and so I mean, there's a lot to say there. Oh, what does it mean to legitimately use the law and legitimately obey the law? But-
David: Yeah. And that's what Jesus was explaining on the Sermon on the Mount.
Seth: That's, that's exactly right.
David: Yeah. That's really good.
Seth: So I wanted to sit in that for a little while, 'cause like I'm so used to saying the law was insufficient, it was not good enough.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it's e- like, uh, you can never keep it. It only reminds you of your sin. Like, to think about, like, what is, why is the law good news?
David: Mm.
Seth: Why would, like, the people of Israel breathe a sigh of relief?
David: Yeah, whenever it was reformed and reread. Why is that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... why is that the balm that they needed in the moment of their deepest sin and worry that everything was gonna go bad and they were gonna get punished? Yeah, that's great.
Seth: And, or even the fact that it's said a second time. Like, they have-
David: That's what I wanted... Yeah.
Seth: Keep-
David: That's what I wanted to talk about, was like, that, that's the first thing that popped into my head, was why, why is the law rewritten? Like, why, why is it reforged, you know?
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Because Moses came off the mountain, saw the people worshiping the idol, and he broke, you know, smashed the tablet that had the Ten Commandments on it to pieces. He smashed the two tablets.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, but then whenever this m- moment of intercession for 40 days is over, God's like, "Cut two new stones for yourself-
Seth: Right
David: ... and I'm going to rewrite it-
Seth: Mm
David: ... exactly the same as I did before." Like, that's the language that he uses.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: And I was like, he, they're really doubling down on this reforging of the law. So I was like, I don't know if I've ever thought about that as significant, but it's clearly significant to Moses here. Did you think about that?
Seth: I won-
David: Like, why is that important?
Seth: I, I didn't, but I'm trying to think, like, if you have a law that's broken and you-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I wonder if, like, it might be as simple as, like, the fact that they're given a new chance to obey the law. Like, normally people who disobey or commit treason-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... are killed.
David: One and done.
Seth: [laughs] Like, or-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or thrown in prison.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that was what they did when they worshiped the golden calf. And when you're i- either, when you're dead, you can't obey the law, and when you are thrown in prison, you don't have the ability to obey the law either. Like, you ha- or if you do, it's in a very different context-
David: Context
Seth: ... because everything is stripped from you and you have nothing. So I wonder if the fact that they're given a law the second time, it's like, it's almost as if God wipes away the past.
David: Right.
Seth: Wipes away their past mistake and say, it's like, I, like, I will not, I will not remem- I'll separate your sins from you as far as the east is from the west.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, it's like, it's good news because there's another chance. Like, there's another-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... maybe-
David: Yeah. I think you're, I think you're onto something there. I think, I, I tried to think about this for a while last night, and as I was thinking about it, I was like, okay, when Moses comes off and breaks the first law, like, that's a symbol obviously that the covenant that has been being formed over the last, like, 15 chapters of Exodus, you know, th- that it's broken. It's severed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The relationship between God and his people is already broken. He was like, "If you obey my law and keep my commandments, you will be my, you will be my people, I will be your God," and then boom, it's broken. And so the people are like, "This was our contract-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with God-
Seth: Right
David: ... that he would protect us, go with us, be with us, uh, and we've, we've ruined that chance."
Seth: It was, uh, b- because God had already rescued them out of Egypt, did all the plagues, parted the Red Sea-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and the giving of the law was like, "This will always happen for us. God will be our people."
David: Yep.
Seth: This, like, this will, the, the, the-
David: I'll be our God, yep
Seth: ... the law was actually the high point-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of being at Mount Sinai. It's actually a bigger deal than God sending down hail and parting the Red Sea.
David: Yeah. It's-
Seth: The fact that God would make a contract with man-
David: That's it, yeah
Seth: ... that's the high point.
David: It's the contract. I think that's w- that's maybe a, a good way for us as 21st century people to think about this, is that God did all this stuff to bring them to his office, you know? [laughs] And then-
Seth: Right
David: ... signed a contract n- naming all the benefits he would provide for them, and then Israel stood up and ripped it and was like, "Nope, we, this contract is void and broken." And it's this dramatic moment of a contract being ripped-
Seth: Mm
David: ... in, in the face of those, th- of the parties involved. And then, so the good news is whenever the, the law is recast and rewritten, it's God saying, "Here's another contract." Like-
Seth: Right. Like-
David: I, I-
Seth: I don't-
David: ... am not broken
Seth: ... yeah. That's fascinating.
David: Yeah. And I think it also shows us something, um, about, like, God showing grace while still upholding the law, that those are not going to ever be two things that he separates, that he will be-
Seth: Mm
David: ... gracious and forgive and, um, and offer second chances, but he will also simultaneously uphold the law. And it's like, how is he going to do that forever? How is he going to constantly say that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Only those who obey me will be blessed, and those who disobey me will be cursed. I will constantly uphold this contract and, and-
Seth: Right
David: ... say that the law is important," while also constantly giving second chances to sinful people? Like, how will he-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... ever hold both of those in tension?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we know that, like, Romans 3, like, that is Jesus, that he is-
Seth: That is Jesus
David: ... just and the fire.
Seth: Jesus is the new generation of Israel-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that obeys the law.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, so one reason why the law is good news for us is because the law has been done by Jesus, the new gener- the new generation of Israel, the newest generation of Israel.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Meaning that there's only blessings for those are, who are in him. There's no curses-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because that belonged to Jesus because he obeyed perfectly. So law, if you keep it, has always been good news, but in Jesus it's even better news because there's no chance that we can lose it. Like, there's no-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... curse that can come from Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, only blessing through his obedience.
David: Which I think that is why... The, so the second question I wrote was, so then after the new tablets are formed, they're gone and they, they go and they're, Moses puts them in the Ark of the Covenant.
Seth: Yep.
David: And I was like, "Why?" Like, that's-
Seth: Mm.
David: "Okay, that's weird."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, what, it's what, it's what you're saying. Now they can't be broken. They can't be smashed. They're protected.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And who is protecting them? God.
Seth: God. Yeah.
David: He has sealed them-
Seth: Mm
David: ... and covered them and says, "I will handle the law for you now." And like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is the picture that we get in Jesus. He is, he, he keeps the law safe for us, even when we constantly break it.
Seth: Yeah. Like, it's like the, the Ark of the Covenant is called like the, the mercy seat or like it's-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... where God's presence lives, and in the center of God's presence is the law.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And when God comes and tabernacles among us with Jesus as a presence of the Lord on the earth, in the middle of his own heart, a purely circumcised heart, which is co- coming up in just a second, is the law that's never broken. Like, is the... And so in him, all the blessings of Israel become ours. [gentle music]
David: Okay. So Seth, you, you said that there is this, uh, really important thing coming up in this next section, which is the circumcision of the heart. And kind of between what we've just read of the reforging of the tablets and putting them in the Ark of the Covenant, um, there is this, um, long section about, like, what does God require of us? And, um, I just wrote, I wrote down these four things that God requires of us-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and then, and before he gets to-
Seth: Starting
David: ... therefore circumcise your hearts.
Seth: Starting in verse 12.
David: I, I think so.
Seth: Okay.
David: I, I've got my notes open.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so it's fear-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... walk, love, and serve-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... are the four things God requires of us. To fear him, to walk with him, to love him, and to serve him.
Seth: With all our hearts and with all our souls.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And-
David: So I, I don't know. I don't know if there's anything else to say about that. I was just like, people really like lists and, uh-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it seems to be like-
Seth: And I mean, it's exactly like we kept saying, like, Jesus is the perfect embodiment of the law. Like, his heart was perfectly circumcised to the law.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it, it was in the center of his mercy seat in his presence. But like, this is exactly what Jesus says in the New Testament. Jesus says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself," which is actually the next li- line, and to keep the commandments. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so like Jesus himself repeats this. Like, the summary is in Jesus' lips. If Jesus is the seat of the law, the law is written on his heart, he actually says exactly this line. [laughs]
David: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, that's cool.
Seth: Okay.
David: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. That's awesome. And, uh, and so, and then we also get this section, I'm just gonna try to fly through these little bits before we get to the circumcision of the heart. We also get this section, um, where God is talking about why he chose Israel-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and he does a different comparison. So earlier-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the last episode-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we saw that he compares, um, he's, he's like, "Now, I didn't choose you because you were really righteous or really big and strong. I chose you because you were unrighteous and really weak."
Seth: Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I remember that.
David: Uh, he kind of looked at, he, he looked at Israel and, and gave them a reason why they should be aghast at his choice of them. Here, God looks at himself and, and shows-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the comparison. He says, "I am-"
Seth: That's a helpful way to say it.
David: He's like, "I'm all-powerful, and the whole earth is mine, and I own everything, and yet I chose you." And it's like, whoa, mind blown. Like [laughs]
Seth: I know. I love that way. I was like, I don't know if I like it more than the other way of saying it.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, it's like, "You are the weakest, so I chose you."
David: Right.
Seth: But maybe I do like this one more. [laughs] But like, it's like, that's helpful. It's like God's looking at them. It's like in the first one, God was looking at the world, like, "I could have chosen anybody-
David: Right. Anybody
Seth: ... including himself." Like, "I have everything."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "I am all-powerful, and I've chosen you." I love that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I love that too.
David: That's beautiful.
Seth: I love it.
David: And then you extrapolate that, if you extrapolate that to, that to the gospel, it's like the whole earth is God's, and yet he came to the earth. Like, he identified with our humanity and our sin-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and our death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He chose to die. Even though the cosmos belongs to him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he became a servant within it, and it's like, that just blows my mind. It, it, it-
Seth: "Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... the earth with all that is in it," and yet he was buried in it.
David: Ugh. I didn't know heaven had a heaven. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: It's like, it's like in Parks and Rec, whenever there's, uh, the, Tom Haverford builds the, the best, um, nightclub of all time-
Seth: And then, then the-
David: ... and he's like, "Our VIP section even has a VIP section."
Seth: [laughs]
David: "And no one's allowed in there, not even us." [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Not even me.
David: It's the heaven of heavens.
Seth: The heaven. Isn't there something, like, with like the ancient conception of space where there's like three levels of heaven?
David: Three. Yeah. Well, y- no, well, yeah. There'd be-
Seth: Three levels of, like, the universe. [laughs]
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, there's the earth-
David: So, yeah, so there's earth, and then there's the heavens, which are the skies, and then there's the third heaven, which is God's residence-
Seth: Okay
David: ... which is outside of the created order.
Seth: So what this is saying is then, like, to you, uh, belongs the skies, and the entire heavenly realm belongs to you.
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: And yet you-
David: And all that's invisible and everything
Seth: ... and all the earth. Like, all three levels belong to you, and you came on the lowest one. That's cool.
David: Yep. It's amazing. Um, and then, oh, I love just how he says this too, "And yet the Lord set his heart in love upon you and chose you." I was like, those are parallel statements. I, I feel like the whole-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you know, language about we're chosen in God or elected or predestined can kind of make people twinge a little bit.
Seth: Or foreknowledge. Yeah.
David: Yeah. It's like, okay, let's say it this way, 'cause this is Hebrew parallelis- parallelism at its best. It's let, let's use these, the, these words. God set his heart in love.
Seth: In love. That's so good.
David: Anyway.
Seth: It's so good. And I think, um, I think a lot of scholars will point out, like, the word know, like, so foreknowledge is the one I was thinking of-
David: Yep
Seth: ... specifically here. The word know throughout the Old Testament, it's like this really intimate, like, almost sexual sometimes. He knew-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that woman. Like, there's a really intimate, like, um, sense that God knows us, and it's in this sense, he sets his heart in love-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and chooses them. I, I like, I like, I like that too.
David: Yeah. So, like, you see that in Jesus when he comes, and why does he go to the people he goes to? Why did he ultimately go to the cross? It's because he had so set his heart in love upon his people that he died for them. Like, it's just beautiful.
Seth: Because God has done this, acted in us in this way, we are told, "Circumcise-
David: Yep
Seth: ... therefore the foreskin of your heart and be no longer stubborn." I wonder, would that have felt as graphic to a first century, [laughs] a Heb- like, to these Hebrews as it does to me?
David: Well, I think it would've... Oh, I- dude, I think it would've felt, felt way more graphic because circumcision to us is something like, you know, you and I have both had sons.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's like they take your son away, out of the room that, where you gave birth, and they take them somewhere that you don't know, and they go and do a circumcision clinically, sterily, and they come back and like-
Seth: Well, nowadays they don't do-
David: Ours-
Seth: ... the entire picture
David: ... yeah, ours just had a little rubber band thing that just-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and it just fell off over time.
Seth: Yeah.
David: No blood or anything.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And it's like, so like for me, circumcision is-
Seth: Shilo, when you're 18 years old and you're listening to this podcast-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... I'm sorry that we did this to you. [laughs]
David: Oh.
Seth: Ezra, I apologize for your father. [laughs]
David: Yeah. But, but s- so anyway, I think it would've been more graphic. J- you know, in the same way that when Jesus said like, "Take up your cross and follow me," they're like, "What?" It's like, take up your electric chair or your noose. That would, you know, be for us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like circumcision is just a very, we don't think about it, but like they had, I don't know, did they use, uh, they must... They didn't have scalpels back then, you know? [laughs]
Seth: I mean, I've, I've watched some tri- no, not actual, I mean, like YouTube videos, like or-
David: Oh, in your YouTube videos.
Seth: Not, or like documentaries [laughs] like about like, like initiation rites, rites of passage.
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth: And like I've seen s- like I saw one where it's basically l- kind of looks like, um, like a pickax, like a mattocks.
David: Oh.
Seth: You know? With like just a little like semicircular notch in it.
David: Okay.
Seth: And it's like shink, and it just-
David: Like a guillotine? [laughs] You, you, you guys can't get all the visuals that I'm getting from Seth right now. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: And it looks like he's cutting a guillotine with his hands.
Seth: [laughs] I don't, I mean, it happens.
David: It happens.
Seth: It happens.
David: So yes, I think to answer your question, it would've been even more graphic to these people. Like the, "You want us to do what to our hearts?" And I think for me, I, I kind of realized this last night, I, I think that for me, I have often thought about this like something needs to be cut away from your heart, like there's a hardness on it or stubbornness in it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that needs to be cut away, and I think that that's part of it, but that's not the meaning of circumcision in Genesis. The meaning of circumcision wasn't cut off a bad part of your reproductive organ.
Seth: Right.
David: It was a, it was a sign of God's covenant with his people and of the way his promise would be fulfilled.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: It would be through the reproduction of Abraham that a whole nation would form that would be a blessing to the world. And so here, we, we, we're saying-
Seth: So it's not so much about the physical, like the, the, the image is really graphic and physical-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it's not actually representative of cutting away a bad part of yourself. It's representative of belonging to God's covenant community, like being a part-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of his people. Is that what you're saying?
David: I, I, I think I'm saying it's, it's both and.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so I think, I think it might be a cart before the horse thing. I think it's we are, God is going to make a people that are part of his covenant, that are living the way he wants, obeying his law, loving him, serving him, walking with him, fearing him, by circumcising their hearts, by, by saying like, "We are a part of this people." Because really, that's what circumcision was. It was just an outward symbol of an inward commitment.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And so this is-
Seth: Like the, "My whole body belongs to you." Like, that's kind of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the symbol. Like my whole, my whole body, all my sons, like my whole life, like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... belongs to you.
David: Yeah. And so God is saying, "Commit then to me your very heart, your innermost commitments and desires. Give that to me, and I won't just make you a people through reproduction. I will make you a people that will bless all nations by changing the way that you live, by reordering your affections, by changing what you love and what you desire. Um, I will change you from the inside, not just from the outside." And so I think that's kind of what's happening here. Um, any- anything else-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, that you want to say about that?
Seth: Well, I'd say, I mean, just even just the text itself, if that's what it means, like, "Give me your whole heart."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Give me like all of yourself, all your hopes and expectations for life." In the same way that circumcision's like, "Lord, I give you even my future offspring." Like, it's a really vis- vi- visual symbol.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, "I trust you, Lord, with the lives of the generations after me." He says, the reason we have to do this with our hearts, in verse 17, is because, "The Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords-
David: Mm
Seth: ... the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribes."
David: Mm.
Seth: So I love that one, too. Uh, just even, uh, before I keep going on, 'cause he go, he executes justice for the fatherless and the widow-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and he loves the foreigner, giving him food and clothing. "Love the foreigner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the Lord your God. You shall serve him-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and hold fast to him." It's like why do you, should you circumcise your heart? Not only has God been gracious to you in the past-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but who is he right now? He is God, the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... one, the awesome, the mighty, the great God, and he does all these things.
David: Yeah. I, I think another way to put it is like if the circumcision of the heart is a full love and desiring of God, then what Moses is doing here in this speech is giving us, I wrote down six reasons why our hearts should belong to God and ways to inflame them for God. So, um, God's choice of you, we've already talked about, so God chose you.
Seth: Mm.
David: God's power, everything is mine. I can do anything. I'm the God of the heavens of the heavens. God's character, I care for sojourners and aliens and the widows. Um, God's saving action, I rescued you from Egypt.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, our former condition- Like who were we before he saved us?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: We were slaves and hopeless. And then when we turn the page to chapter 11, we'll see, it, the, the sixth reason is God's punishments. He says-
Seth: Mm
David: ... "Remember what I did to Egypt."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so you take all of this, God's choice, God's power, God's character, God's saving actions, our former condition, and God's punishments, and it's like, man, my... I- if I meditate on, on those things, my heart begins to change and become more devoted to God. That is like a circumcision of the heart that's happening.
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David: It's giving more affections to Yahweh. So I think that's, that's kind of what Moses is doing here, is building this argument for why we should circumcise our hearts.
Seth: I think that... I think you're right. I think you're right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That-
David: So I think what we have to talk about i- is, is like in the New Testament, like this is a-
Seth: Can we, can I talk about one thing before-
David: Yeah, go ahead
Seth: ... we go to the New Testament? I wanted to talk about just takes no bribes.
David: Of course.
Seth: So like I thought it was such a strange, like God is not part... It's the first thing he mentions out of all the lists.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like after God's power is God's impartial and he doesn't take bribes. So I was just trying to like w- it struck me as strange, and so I was just-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... trying to meditate on it and think about what does that mean. Like you can't cheat the system, you can't pay him off. And I remember from an ethics class I took a little while ago, it was like the only difference between a bribe and a gift is your motivation.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And so if we're actually talking about like changing of the heart, like there is a way that we can give God our obedience like a bribe.
David: That's right.
Seth: "Hey, God, I'll do these things for you if you plan to bless me. If you plan to do X, Y, and Z for me. If you do this, if you do this for me, m- I'll go to church every Sunday." Like-
David: That's right. Yeah
Seth: ... we can treat our obedience like a bribe to the Lord.
David: That's right.
Seth: And what he's saying is like God does not accept bribes, but he does accept gifts.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He wants your, "I've done all this for you," and he will accept your gifts of obedience. So I was just like, I think there, I think that's there intentionally-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... because over and over again [laughs] like this id- legalism, like legal- like comes up over and over again, t- the thought that we can bribe God with our good actions. So anyway, going into the New Testament.
David: No, I think... Oh man, that is huge actually. Like I'm just sitting here reeling from that. I think that's beautiful because I, I think often we talk about like, so is it, is it conditional, the, the like obeying God's law and then the blessing and how... And he, he clears it up with this one statement, is it's like, "I want you to obey my law and then you'll be blessed. But remember, I don't take bribes." And it's like-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... wait, what? How are-
Seth: Right
David: ... those are intimately related as you just-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... unpacked. And, uh, and I think it's just, I, I think it's amazing. So I mean, I think that does tie into some of the stuff we're gonna talk about here in the New Testament.
Seth: What you're saying is like normally we think of like Go- the covenant looks like on the surface, if you do good things, God responds by doing this.
David: Yeah. Right.
Seth: What, like God blesses you based on your actions. But what God's saying is like, "No, I don't, that's not, I don't take bribes that way."
David: Right.
Seth: The contract is not based on quid pro quo. It's based on-
David: Right
Seth: ... your heart being changed and giving me gifts of obedience. Like that's very different.
David: Yep.
Seth: Um.
David: Yep. He wants your love, not your payments.
Seth: So in that way, contract is not helpful, but like maybe marriage is more helpful there. It's like, you know-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like it's not that like I, my wife does not want me to bribe her into having sex with me. Like, you know? [laughs] Like what I mean?
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like that's not loving to her or-
David: Right
Seth: ... faithful for me.
David: That was the only reason why you ever gave her gifts.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: It would seem, seem hollow, and it would be almost hateful toward her-
Seth: Yes
David: ... um, instead of loving toward her.
Seth: But-
David: But if you're giving her gifts because you loved her, it would be completely different, even if the gift itself was exactly the same.
Seth: Yeah.
David: The motivation is different.
Seth: That's exactly right. The only difference between a bribe and a gift is the heart-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is exactly what the Lord, what Moses says, "Circumcise."
David: Right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay, so then the New Testament picks up radically on this idea of circumcision of the heart. Um, Jesus talks about it. Paul talks about it. Uh, it's a big deal. Um, you know, Paul, Paul says that, um, a Jew is not one who is circumcised outwardly, but one who is circumcised inwardly, you know? And, and like that's a, that's a big deal here. He's saying that if you really wanna be part of the covenant people of God, I don't necessarily need you to obey Genesis 15 or 17. W- where was the covenant for circumcision given?
Seth: Uh-
David: 15, 17.
Seth: I think-
David: One of the two.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: I forget. [laughs]
David: And, uh, I w- I need you to obey Deuteronomy 10. Like, I need you to cir- circumcise your heart-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... not your flesh, you know? And, uh, and so that's... A- and what we, what we'll find is that there is this deep place in us that God wants, that all of these beautiful reasons that we have to love him, even those cannot reach-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... because we are so stubborn and so sinful and so hardened of heart. Uh, we needed, um, an internal spiritual surgery to take place to mark us off as people who can actually love God.
Seth: Hmm.
David: And Jesus says that that is what the Holy Spirit does for us, that he comes-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and circumcises our hearts so that we can actually love him. He sets our affections apart f- for him.
Seth: And what's funny is like it's actually a better, like, it's a better guarantee than even physical circumcision. It's like circumcision, as we've said, like is like this outward expression of an internal heart posture towards the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But a lot of, a lot of time what happened in Israel is that people would circumcise themselves, assume they were a part of God's covenant community, but never actually had that heart relationship. What, what is good news about Jesus is that when we are circumcised by him, it takes, like it's actually, like, you know, it actually does what the symbol was, symbolizes. Like it's not just a symbol, it's actual reality.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like it's not a symbol of what we hope to be true or we think might be true or we are trying to be true. God functionally changes our hearts that we love to obey him. It gives us the ability to stop treating God like a, a corrupt judge who takes bribe- bribes-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or a vending machine. Like he changes us fundamentally so that we can obey his law like gifts to him. He like changes our ability to... Like, it's like obedience becomes gifts.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like gifts that we can give to the Lord, not begrudging duties-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that we must do. Like, like-
David: Yeah, I love that. And I think, I think... I just wanna say this too, that there were people in the Old Testament who this was good news for, and that, um, got and longed for this heart. I mean, think about David when he prayed, "Create in me a clean heart, O God," right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: "And take not your Holy Spirit from me." Like, "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation." Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... he, he prayed these things. And, and like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so the Holy Spirit did this operation for people in, under this covenant too. Um, but he, you know, but it wasn't until the new covenant that he comes and takes up permanent residence in us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know? That's, that's a huge difference. But that's not what the text is talking about here, so we won't go into that. But anyway, there is an internal operation that needs to happen that only the Holy Spirit can do. Um, and so-
Seth: And it's done for us-
David: Uh-
Seth: ... in Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so if you, if you're sitting here going like, "Um, man, I don't love God" You know? [laughs] Like, "I, I-"
Seth: Right
David: ... "tried really hard," well, that's the wrong method, you know?
Seth: Mm.
David: What you need to do, if you wanna love God, ask him to circumcise your heart.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Ask him to change you from the inside. And so, um-
Seth: And if you're a Christian already-
David: ... like, like, for-
Seth: ... don't think that it's a weird prayer. Like, say-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "Well, I'm a Christian. I already believe in Jesus. I know I believe in Jesus. Like, I've done it for 20 years, but like, I just don't feel-"
David: Mm
Seth: ... love or don't desire obedience." Like, what, uh... Paul says it like, "We have been saved, we are saved, and we are-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "being saved."
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there is a sense that we always have to go back to the grace and mercy of the Lord and ask for new sensitivity to his Spirit. Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... sensitivity to his calling, sensitivity to, to obedience towards him. It's not wrong to ask to be, um, not saved again, because we are saved by what Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... has done, but for new and deeper appreciation and willingness to obey the Lord.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's not wrong.
David: No. This is just, this is sanctification we're talking about. This is being-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... f- your heart being formed into God's heart from one stage to the next. Like, that's what we're talking about here.
Seth: And I think too, sometimes we think, like circumcision was supposed to be the sign of a re- of a regenerated heart, like a heart that desired obedience. And so sometimes we can th- I mean, this is like maybe a little more technical than we need to be, but like, in the New Testament, circumcision I think most directly links to the regeneration of our heart, the renewing of our mind, the re-
David: Mm
Seth: ... like the, the, the new desires the Lord gives us.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so we are saved by Jesus first, finally, forever by his work on the cross. So we're not asking the Lord to like re-save us.
David: Mm.
Seth: That's already been done. We can't lose that. God chose us in love from his heart. [laughs] Like, that, we don't do... We don't get re-Exodused, you know? [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: We do get renewed.
David: Mm.
Seth: And like, that's what we're asking for, like that work, that continuing work of living in the land. That's what we're asking for, that type of circumstance. So I just wanted to clarify that, 'cause I think sometimes... This is, as I... as a kid, I always asked to get saved like 100 times.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, to make sure that I was really Christian, and it's not about bribing God with the right actions to make sure that you feel a Christian by some internal sense that God blesses you with. It's actually about... It's not about that. [laughs] So that's all I need to say. It's not about that.
David: That's good. That's good.
Seth: Like, the Lord loves you, he's chosen you, and you're asking just-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to renew and be re-softened to the Lord.
David: Yeah. That's good. Okay. So, um, I want us to wrap up with talking about chapter 11 and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the blessings and the curses.
Seth: We can really fly over a lot of chapter 11. We've talked a lot about what's in these chapters already, partly because chapters 1 through 11 function as an introduction to the bulk of the book of Deuteronomy in 12 through, um, 26.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's happening right here is kinda like the, kinda the solidifying of these two themes, blessing and cursing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Obey God, you'll be blessed. Disobey God, and you'll be cursed.
David: Yep, and Moses even repeats things here that he said before about remembering what God's commanded and, um, uh, like w- writing them on your foreheads and on the doorposts of your house and all that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... kind of stuff. And so it really does serve as kind of a, a repeated bookend of everything here. Um, but what, what I just wanna name is that there's this, uh, thing that we've alluded to multiple times already in this episode, is that there's this, um, there's this, uh, i- i- what did I write? The obey and stay commandment. [laughs]
Seth: Obey, obey and stay?
David: Yeah. I just like that i, I, I just thought it was funny. It's the whole blessing and curse thing where it's like-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... if you-
Seth: Deuteronomy 11:26?
David: Yeah. "If you obey, you will stay in the land, and it will go well with you, and you will live long in it, and I will pour rain out on it in season and out-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of season." I, I'll, I'll call it the obey and stay. [laughs]
Seth: The obey and stay. [laughs] Got it. Got it. [laughs]
David: I couldn't come up with a fun rhyme for the other one, or I just didn't try hard enough, but you know, like the disobey and you on your way. [laughs]
Seth: That, that, that sounds good.
David: There it is. That was off the, off the top. I like that.
Seth: So anyway-
David: But anyway, but the, but the idea here is that, um, obedience and blessing are linked, and disobedience and cursing are linked. And, um, and ul- ultimately, we know that Israel will disobey and be kicked out of the land and, um, receive all the curses that the whole Torah has been talking about. You know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Leviticus talks about it. Deuteronomy talks about it.
Seth: So let's be really clear here with what we're talking about. So we've spent a lot of time on unpacking what obedience is and is not. A curse isn't, does not come to people who have a circumcised heart. A curse proves that the people of Israel never had one.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: So if, if the, if you had this new heart that loved to obey God and wanted to obey him as a gift towards him, not as a bribe to get something from him, like that was a circumcised heart. To do otherwise, to disobey God, to forget him when you have all these good things, to worship other gods, that-... proves that your heart is not circumcised. So the curse isn't towards people who truly believe, although they are implicated by the actions of others.
David: Right.
Seth: It's actually a curse for those who have never had their hearts circumcised-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who have never trusted the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's what's happening in these curses. So I wanted to make that clear because that's not always clear to me. It's like, oh, as a Christian, if I do the right thing, God's gonna give me more stuff, and if I do the wrong thing, God's gonna not give me the stuff that I want.
David: Yeah, take stuff away from me.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's not the way this works.
David: No. And these are, and these are also broader covenantal categories that are being, um, explained, uh, through physical blessings. You know, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... we have to understand that when, when God is talking about this new land that he's going to bring them into, and that it's, it's a land that's not like Egypt. Egypt had to be irrigated from the Nile because, you know, it was a very-
Seth: Right
David: ... arid land. This is a healthy land. It rains all the time there. It's easy-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... to grow crops. Yeah, he's talking kind of about the, uh, like the layout and the geography and the weather patterns of I- of Israel, but he's also trying to get you to picture Eden here. Like, he's j- he-
Seth: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: He's talking-
Seth: That makes sense
David: ... and so he's saying, "If you obey, you'll, you'll be in the place where I walk around in the Garden of Eden. If you disobey, you will be cursed by being outside of it." So it's, it's, it, this is, this is-
Seth: Yeah, that's helpful
David: ... if you obey, it's Genesis 1 and 2. If you disobey, it's Genesis 3 and 4. You know? [laughs] It's, that's the diff-
Seth: That's super helpful
David: ... you're in or you're out-
Seth: That's super helpful
David: ... of God's land. It has less to do with, with physical blessings and physical curses. It has everything to do with the theology that they symbolize, which is-
Seth: Mm
David: ... you're in Eden or you're not in Eden. And so the question for us is-
Seth: And you can't separate the physicality of Eden.
David: No.
Seth: Like, Eden was perfect.
David: Perfect.
Seth: Like, all throughout.
David: But-
Seth: Like, I mean, in Deuteronomy 26 and 27 when it talks about the blessing and curses, it's about, like, cattle and, like, land markers.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, it's very physical. You're not discounting that. But what you're saying-
David: No
Seth: ... the, the more important point or the, the point being made here potentially is... Say it just, well, a different way for me, just so I understand what you're saying.
David: Yeah. The more important, the more important point is not the physical blessings that are tied to obedience or the physical catastrophes that are tied to disobedience. The more important point is are you going to be in the land with God or not?
Seth: Mm.
David: Are you gonna be in his presence or not? And that's really the ultimate, uh, thing that God's trying to talk about here. Are you gonna be his people and live in his land, or are you gonna-
Seth: Mm
David: ... be exiled? A- and so it's like, are you gonna be with God is the, is the really big point here. And so that's the question that extends to us even today, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And-
Seth: And I love the way that plays out as they enter into the land. So at the very end of Deuteronomy chapter 11, before you go into, like, how it applies to us, I think this is actually pretty helpful for how, like, it applies to us too. When they get into the land, there's two mountains, Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal, and what they're supposed to do is they're supposed to go to those mountains, and on w- on Mount Gerizim, they make an altar and a pillar. Uh, and Josh- Joshua says they write a copy of the law, which is actually the same word, copy of the law, that's used here to refer to the whole Torah. So some people think the whole Torah was written on this thing, or maybe just the book of D- Deuteronomy or maybe something else. But, like, all the blessings of God were supposed to be written on one mountain, and then on the other mountain, you would have the curses pronounced. And so there's this really fascin- In Deuteronomy, uh, 27, this actually happens. They go and they build a monument on Mount Gerizim of all the blessings of God, and they send half the people of Israel to go stand on the mountain of blessing. And they send the other half of the people to Is- of Israel to stand on the mountain of cursing, and then they pronounce the curses. What will happen is if you disobey the Lord, you'll be cast out. You won't experience this. And it's this moment that consecrates the land or, like, solidifies in the geography the covenant that God is making with his people, so much so that j- when Joshua goes into the land in Joshua 8, he does this thing. Like, he actually does what's described in 26 and 27. So I think that's fascinating because, one, it's an example of God commanding something that the people actually do, and you see it in two different book- three different places in two different books of the Bible. But I also think it goes back to, like, the physicality thing. I think, like, even within the land of Canaan, you have the mountain of cursing and the mountain of blessing forever before you. And one of the things that Moses says over and over again is to, to write the law on the tablets of your heart and between the frontlets of your eyes. Put them on your hands. Talk about them when you go on the way. Talk about th- when you sit down. And when you look up to see the sun rise over the mountains, remember the blessings and the cursings of the Lord.
David: Hmm.
Seth: Like, obey and enter his rest on that mountain, or disobey and enter the curses of that mountain. Anyway, I would just like... It was just a powerful image to me.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I wanted to mention it here because I think it kind of, it ties all the thematic abstract things we're talking about into the very land that they're moving to, which makes sense that this is the promised land, the new-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... Eden. God's law, the good news, is built into the rocks.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right? [laughs]
David: Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And it, it's also helpful just because when I read that I was like, "What does that mean?"
Seth: Right. [laughs] Yeah.
David: But just having the story told is also very helpful. [laughs] Um, okay. So what I want us to do real quick as we talk about-
Seth: Or it makes me really think too, like, about the rocks of refuge that David talks about.
David: Hmm.
Seth: My rock of refuge. Jesus is my rock. Like, he is the law.
David: He's looking at those things.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Anyway.
David: Yeah. That's great. Okay. Before you interrupt me again [laughs]
Seth: Sorry, David. Go ahead
David: ... what, what I wanna do is wrap up this podcast, uh, with Galatians 3:8-13, because he talks about these blessings and these curses that are pronounced in the law. So let me read it real quick. "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, 'In you shall all nations be blessed.' So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works Of the law are under a curse. For it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all the things written in this Book of the Law and do them." Now, it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for the righteous shall live by faith. But the law is not of faith, rather the one who does them shall live by them. Christ, here it is, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree." And so what we have to see here is Paul is making an argument saying everyone's cursed. Everyone messed up, and it doesn't matter how well you live because real righteousness isn't based on works anyway. Real righteousness is based on faith. And so he's, like, circumventing this whole thing and saying, "I can prove you wrong on both fronts that you're not good enough to receive these blessings. One-"
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: "... you broke the law, and two, even if you lived perfectly, like, real righteousness isn't based on works. It's based on your faith in God."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And he says, "And since you are all under a curse, how will you ever be blessed?" And his answer is this. It's that Jesus was cursed for you. And it's like, I n- like, I know that the whole, like, theory and, uh, of, of atonement around substitution can be argued and, um-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, you know, we stand with it here on this podcast very regularly. I just don't think there's a much clearer moment in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the New Testament that talks about Jesus being our substitute than here. Jesus became a curse for us. He was separated from God, ripped out of Eden-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... exiled, taken outside the camp for us.
Seth: He was taken off the mountain of blessing-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in the Garden of Eden onto the mountain of cursing. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like, he was tr- and he was crucified on a mountain. I don't, maybe that's a little allegorical, but-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I'm thinking, like, mountain, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... mountains as, like, places of God's presence and power, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... the Garden of Eden.
David: Definitely.
Seth: Then you have another mountain of cursing. Sorry, continue.
David: No, no. No, it, it's really good, and, um, and it's why Jesus said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Like, he was ripped away-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... from, uh, this blessing of God that he's always had. And so, um, anyway, like, this is-
Seth: I w-
David: ... this is how we are saved, you know? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... this is, this is how we receive blessing instead of a curse. It's by putting our faith in the fact that Jesus became the curse for us.
Seth: In, uh, Deuteronomy 27 where that cursing mountain with that liturgy is said, I was just thinking, like, imagining Jesus on that mountain-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... crucified, and the whole thing is a call and response. So the people on the mountain pronounce the curse, and the people on the ground say amen.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I was just imagining Jesus hanging on the cross, perfect, righteous, having fulfilled the law, and then these things being said over them. "Cursed be the man who makes a carved image or casts an image. He is an abomination to the Lord." And the people said, "Amen."
David: Mm.
Seth: So it's just a, I was imagining, like, seeing Jesus on the cross, having that wrongly said of him, but rightly said of him because he's taking our sin, and then we say, "Amen." "Cursed be anyone who-
David: Mm
Seth: ... dis- fathers his father or mother." And the people shall say, "Amen."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Cursed be anyone who moves his neighbor's landmarks." And the people say, "Amen." It's like, one of the things we're saying as Christians is exactly what you're saying right now. The curses are on Jesus, and we say, "Amen."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's, [laughs] like, that's what it means to have faith in him. The curses don't apply to us because he's on the mountain of cursing, and we've said, "So be it." And, like, we, we should, like, notice, like, our complicity in that. Like, we put him there. We are the ones who said, "So be it." But also, like, the sobering fact, like, what we deserved, we say over him, and he becomes for us.
David: Yeah. Wow. Man, that's really beautiful. Well, that's, I wanna stop there, and, uh, man, thank you for that, Seth. That was, that, that was really, [laughs] like, I'm sitting here really moved. Um, anyway, wow. Okay. Guys, thank you so much for listening, um, so far through the Book of Deuteronomy. We're gonna continue in chapter 12 next week, and, um, we can't wait to jump in with you. Uh, we hope you're reading along with Deuteronomy, and, uh, we hope you're enjoying it. And, uh, anyway, we will see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
