Intro: [instrumental music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right. Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Seth, how are you today?
Seth: I am well.
David: Yeah?
Seth: I'm very well. I'm e- I'm excited to be here.
David: Yeah. Well, I am-
Seth: I'm al- I'm always excited to be here-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... but I'm really excited to talk about laws for some reason today. Like, I have a lot of energy for it. [laughs]
David: It's because you're on the Daniel fast, and so all you're doing is eating fruits and vegetables and ch- and drinking coffee-
Seth: You know-
David: So-
Seth: ... you're literally not supposed to announce to an entire podcast audience-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... that you're fasting because it is against the Bible. [laughs]
David: Well-
Seth: But at least you did it for me.
David: I did it.
Seth: And I didn't do it.
David: And I had no, I had no pride attached to it whatsoever.
Seth: Right.
David: So-
Seth: So now I have to fight this entire podcast, the pride of-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... all of our listeners knowing, thank you, David, that I am-
David: You're welcome
Seth: ... currently more holy than them. But-
David: That's right. Yep
Seth: ... moving on-
David: Moving on. [laughs]
Seth: ... to away from my sin now. [laughs]
David: So, um, okay, so a couple notes before we jump in. Um, we're gonna be in Deuteronomy 12 to 14 today.
Seth: Yep. Mm-hmm.
David: Uh, but also wanted to alert all of you regular podcast listeners that we are going on our first winter break finally. Uh-
Seth: Finally
David: ... we've never, we've never really done a break, and, uh, it's-
Seth: We did like a one-week break one time. [laughs]
David: We did, yeah, but we've not done like a, a, a solid little seasonal break, which is very healthy. Um, and, uh, that'll be helpful for us.
Seth: Which is fitting because after-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... chapter 14 comes chapter 15, did you know? And chapter 15 is about the sabbatical.
David: That's right.
Seth: So we're gonna take-
David: We're gonna go on a sabbatical. [laughs]
Seth: We're gonna go on a sabbatical. It's gonna be great.
David: Yep. And, uh, we'll actually probably keep recording a little bit over that sabbatical, but, so-
Seth: Oh, so we're still working?
David: Yeah, you know.
Seth: Oh, got it.
David: But whatever.
Seth: Got it. Got it. [laughs]
David: Uh, anyway, and so just a heads-up on that. So you won't see, um, any more, um-
Seth: Mm-hmm, new content
David: ... episodes, yeah, from us until, uh, maybe, like, mid to late January, and then we'll hop back in, uh, wrapping up Deuteronomy. So just wanted to make you all aware of that. Okay, so-
Seth: So Merry Christmas, I guess, is-
David: Merry Christmas
Seth: ... this is-
David: We won't get a chance to tell you.
Seth: Yeah, so Merry Christmas, and if you wanna give David a special gift this Christmas-
David: Oh
Seth: ... you can like us on our podcast app. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: We would actually love it. We have 60 reviews, uh, 60, like, likes or five-star ratings-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and a bunch of reviews. We would love it if you guys continue to do that over the holiday season as you're listening and sharing it.
David: It means a lot to us.
Seth: It means a lot to us.
David: We read them all.
Seth: We read them all. Other people get to see Jesus in all scripture when you do it.
David: Yep.
Seth: Please do it. Thank you.
David: That's good. And if you, uh, I don't talk about this much, but, um, if you, if you, uh, I know Christmastime is the time of giving, and so if, if that's, uh, something you like to do and you like this podcast, you like Spoken Gospel, our introductions, our devotionals, our podcasts, whatever, uh, we're 100% donor-supported. So if you want to, uh, join us in our mission to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture, you can do so by going to spokengospel.com/give, and you can make a one-time or, um, even more helpfully, a monthly donation to join us in our-
Seth: How many people, this is, it's like $36 a... If, like, 10 people give $36 a month, does that fund a video?
David: Uh, it's, uh, f- it's f- it's 36 people giving $36 a month.
Seth: So if 36 people give $36 a month, you fund the next video, in other words.
David: Spoken Gospel video.
Seth: What-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what are we working on right now?
David: We're in Wisdom right now. Yep.
Seth: So-
David: So we, we film, uh, we film Song of Songs this weekend.
Seth: So if you wanna see Song of Songs, spoiler alert. Can I spoil something?
David: Oh, yeah. Go ahead.
Seth: It's, it's a ballet.
David: It's gorgeous. Uh, we just-
Seth: It's-
David: ... got sent the footage from our dance studio, and it's amazing.
Seth: So if you wanna be part of seeing a ballet and spoken word poetry and the gospel and the Book of Song of Solomon preached-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... you should totally give $36 a month. 36 of you-
David: Thank you, Seth
Seth: ... should give $36 a month.
David: I love it. Thank you, Seth.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: All right. Okay. So let's jump into the text here. Thank you all for bearing with us on our long preface this morning. Um, but-
Seth: No, it's not that bad. I listen to some podcasts where it's like a 10-minute, like-
David: It's true
Seth: ... conversation between the hosts-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and I, like, I fast-forward.
David: Yep. Yep.
Seth: It's too much.
David: Get to the meat.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So let's get into the, let's get into the chosen meat here.
Seth: The chosen meat.
David: Not, not the unchosen, unclean meat.
Seth: So chapters 1 to 11 is essentially an introduction to-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... 12 to 26, which is, like, the legal core of the Book of Deuteronomy. So after, like, recounting what God has done in Israel's past, uh, just like the covenant on Mount Sinai where God recounts all that he did for Israel and Egypt, Moses gives the law. He explains to Israel what they're expected to do once they arrive in the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So that's kinda the bulk of the chap- of the Book of Deuteronomy, is the law that we're about to read.
David: That's right. That's right. Yep. And so we come in and, uh, I guess really fittingly, Moses opens up this new section, if you will, that, that, that Seth's just explained, with a command, and it's, "These are the decrees and laws you must be careful to follow in the land that the Lord, the God of your ancestors, has given you to possess." So here they are. These are the laws. These are the commands. Be careful to follow them. Where? In the land-
Seth: In the land
David: ... that you're going to enter. And what will happen if you do? You will live long in the land. So, like, this is really an encapsulating statement for the Mosaic Covenant, wouldn't, I mean, wouldn't you say?
Seth: Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. If you obey the law, you will enter into the land and live long in the land. That's it.
David: Yep. Yep. And so-
Seth: That's the good news of the Book of Deuteronomy. Obey the Lord-
David: Yeah. Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and r- and you get the land.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's the good news. Yeah, yeah.
David: That's good. And so, um, and so really, these, these first three chapters a- and, and a lot of the, the, the Deuterono- the Deuteronomy law, uh, is about Israel's distinctiveness among the nations. And so here we're gonna see, uh, in these three chapters, they need to be distinct about where they worship- How they worship, how they deal with sin, what they eat-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... and what they do with their resources. All those things in these three chapters distinguish them from the rest of the nations, and throughout-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... we're gonna hear, "Don't do this like the inhabitants do. Don't do it like them. Do it like I'm gonna tell you." So the law is about Israel's distinctiveness. So maybe we should unpack that a bit about like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... why would God give Israel law to make them distinct among the nations?
Seth: And just-
David: Like, why is that important?
Seth: ... to that point, not just these laws that we're about to read in th- these three chapters-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... but, like, all the laws that you read-
David: Yes
Seth: ... are about distinguishing God's people from everybody else. And I mean, he says it multiple times. It's because they are holy. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you are a holy people, and I am a holy God, so if you're gonna be like me, you're gonna be holy as well. And so we've talked multiple times about holiness in the podcast. Like, on one level, holy means different, unique, and separate.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So wh- if God is a different, unique, separate God of life and love, his people are to act in the same way, and the nations surrounding them are not people, not nations of light and love, but nations of darkness and death-
David: Mm
Seth: ... which is really explicitly said in chapter 12, verse 31, where it says, "They've done every abominable thing that the Lord hates. They have done this for their gods."
David: Mm.
Seth: "They even burn their sons and daughters in the fires to the gods."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So, like, if God is a holy, unique, life-giving God, and the nations around them are repr- uh, have gods that are associated with death and infanticide, have nothing to do with them. Everything should look like me, not like them.
David: Yeah, and what's really interesting, too, I've, I've never seen this until this moment, um, and I think that was really helpful, uh, what you just said, Seth. Um, but i- in the same way that Israel is to be like their holy God, so they are to be holy, it seems like the same thing is happening in that mirroring between the gods and the humans-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in the pagan nations. You have these unholy, wicked gods creating unholy, wicked people.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's, it's they mirror their gods. Now I want you to mirror your God.
Seth: That's exactly right. There's this, like, theme throughout scripture where, like, you become what you worship.
David: That's really good. Yeah.
Seth: Um, so, like, uh, like back in Exodus when they, uh, worshiped the golden calf, the first thing that's told- we're told about them, that they are stiff-necked-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... just like calves are stiff-necked.
David: Yep.
Seth: We talked about this offline, but there was, like, a, a part of the Egyptian religion was that the Pharaoh could harden your heart so that you could be free from the consequences of sin, and when Israel desires to trust Egypt, to go back to Egypt, to eat the meat pots and the leeks back of Egypt, they're described as having hard hearts. Like, they become like what they hope in.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They become like what they worship, and that theme's progresses throughout scripture, and I think you're seeing another example of it here. You're right.
David: Yeah, definitely. So I just thought that was a really interesting-
Seth: Mm
David: ... comparison there. And so, uh, but there, there's the context of, of God's command for them not to worship their gods or to worship Yahweh like the, the inhabitants worship their gods, uh, is in the context of where are they to worship when they come into the Holy Land-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because right now they've got this mobile tabernacle, and they are all kind of circumferenced around it. You know, they're, they're-
Seth: I was thinking about this. Like, how far removed would be... Like, you wouldn't be very far from the tabernacle if you're in this wandering, you know-
David: That's right
Seth: ... across, right? Like-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... within a couple hours at least, you know?
David: Yeah. I mean, at most maybe a, a, a, you know, a, a good morning's hike, you know?
Seth: Right.
David: Um, just because of the map configuration.
Seth: So what's happening then when you go into the land, there'll be one place that they can worship.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they a- if you're going to worship or offer sacrifices, you have to come from wherever you're living and travel-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... all the way to where the, this tent, this tabernacle will be.
David: That's right. Yep.
Seth: And it's different from the surrounding gods because they could wor- the surrounding nations could worship their gods wherever was convenient. They could erect an Asherah pole. They could-
David: Yes
Seth: ... make a little idol, make a little shrine in their little village, and they could go there and worship the god there.
David: Yeah, and, and Israel's actually commanded to, when they go into the land, to destroy those outposts of the gods, the, the poles and the shrines. They're to destroy those things and set up only one localized place, um-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... where, where God was to be worshiped.
Seth: Can you talk about that a little bit? Like, why is that part of the distinctiveness of Israel's worship?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, why couldn't Israel have a mini tabernacle in their town? Why is there-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... only one?
David: It's a, I mean, it's a huge question, I think. Um, and, and so I don't know if I can address it fully. Um, I think I'd have to look into that really deeply. But off the, I mean, uh, I think obviously it's, it's about monotheism a little bit here, that it's-
Seth: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... that there's one God. You know, hear, O Israel. This is, you know, in Deuteronomy, the Lord, the Lord is one, you know? And so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I think this idea of having the one place that you must come to to worship the one God is, is kind of reverberating this very central, very scandalous idea in the ancient Near East that a nation-
Seth: Mm
David: ... worships one God-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... in, and especially in one place. It just heightens the drama of monotheism in Israel. And so they're like, "Wait, why can't you just worship in your house?" Or-
Seth: Right
David: ... "Why can't you just erect a shrine?" And it's like, "No, no, no. We're not allowed to build anything that represents our God because he's too holy. He's too set apart. He's too powerful." And-
Seth: We can't divide God-
David: That's right. Yep
Seth: ... in the way that you divide God.
David: Yes.
Seth: We have one God, one place to find mediation, one place for our sins to be forgiven.
David: Yep.
Seth: And that's in God's presence-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... where i- he dwells.
David: And I think that's the other big thing, is the difference between Israel's God and the gods of the inhabitants, is Israel's God is a- ... actually there. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... he actually came-
Seth: Right
David: ... and filled the tabernacle. He's located inside the tabernacle, where all these other gods are, are just fake. They're just, they're-
Seth: Right
David: ... they're just images. And so why would you go to an image or a facsimile or representation or a reminder when you could go to the living presence of God? Like, that's, I think-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... one of the big reasons is, like, God's like, "This is my house. I'm here."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Don't go to a picture of me. Come to me." You know, I think that's a big reason why, uh-
Seth: It also makes sense to the way that Deuteronomy 12 and other, uh, throughout this chapter talks about this place the Lord... It says, uh, verse five, "You shall seek the place the Lord your God will choose out of all your tribes to put His name and to make His habitation there." And he says it again in verse 11, the, uh, the, "The place your Lord and God will choose to make His name dwell there."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So there's this... So God is choosing to take His name and place it in a particular place.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Um, and what we're saying, we're choo- I think I'm trying to, like, put all these things together. What we're saying is, like, that name is not just, um, like, the name on the side of a building in a university. It's not like-
David: That's right
Seth: ... he's like, "This is Do-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this is Yahweh's building."
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's more like his special presence will be in one place because he is one god.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Is that kind of what we're saying?
David: Th- yeah, yeah. There's two, I think there's at least two things we need to remember that are outside of our modern context that will, I think, help what you're trying to say. One is more literary-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and it's the fact that when, when the, the Torah, and even the Old Testament as a whole, talks about, "My name will be with you," or, "I will put my name on you," or th- it, it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... it is, that is presence language, not necessarily like, uh, when you sign a document and it's like, "Oh yeah, I, I endorse that," or-
Seth: Right
David: ... um, "I call that my own."
Seth: "I'm the benefactor of this."
David: Uh-huh.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: When, when, w- when Go- when God is talking about the divine name, I mean, and what does the divine name even mean? I am. It's, it, it even means presence.
Seth: Right.
David: "I will put 'I am' there there," you know? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Like, it's like, it, the name itself is presence. So, "I will be there," is what he's saying.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I think there's a literary thing going on there, uh, that I think is-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... really important for us to, to, to remember. The other thing is cultural, and that, that we need to remember that the, that names in this time are way more significant than they are now, um, especially for Westerners, you know?
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's like, "What's your name?" "David." "What does it mean?" "I don't know." You know? [laughs] And, uh, and so for God to put his name on something is way-
Seth: I think your name means praise
David: ... more significant.
Seth: Doesn't it? That mean-
David: Yeah. I-
Seth: Doesn't it mean, like, worship?
David: I don't know. All I know is that-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... my mom, [laughs] my mom named me David because, and this is true, she says that an angel visited her while she was pregnant and told her-
Seth: Oh my God
David: ... that I would be a poet, that I would be a poet, and to name me-
Seth: That is-
David: ... David after the poet.
Seth: That's crazy.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Wow.
David: And she never told me that until I became, like, an established poet, because she didn't wanna influence me. She just wanted to see if God did it.
Seth: What?
David: Yeah. Anyway.
Seth: That's-
David: I've never told that story publicly, so now it's buried in a n-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... in a podcast episode about Deuteronomy 12 to 14.
Seth: I hope you guys find it. [laughs]
David: I hope you find it. [laughs] Uh, so anyway, so the, the name, though, is like, it's a big deal for you to give your family name to a place or to, you know, a location. It's to say, like, it, it's just way more significant than it is-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for, for us today. So I think that's a, tho- those are two things that heighten this idea of God saying, "I'm gonna make my name dwell there," is he's saying, "I'm gonna take my special presence-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and live there, take up residence there." Um-
Seth: So on the, on the, so, so God is appointing a place to worship where all the sacrifices are, are supposed to take place.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And the place where everyone is supposed to come to experience the Lord, to ex- receive forgiveness of sin, to receive me- mediation by the priests, to be in the presence and feast and eat and celebrate the fe- the festivals, is in this one particular place because God's presence-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is in the tabernacle.
David: That's right.
Seth: It's in the tent. His name literally dwells there.
David: Yes.
Seth: So I think this is a really clear place for us to jump to John 1:1-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... where it says, like, "The word became flesh and dwelled," same word here-
David: Tabernacled
Seth: ... that's used here, tabernacled, "among us." So God's special presence in Jesus comes and resides in one particular person. In the same way that Israel could only come to one place for forgiveness of sins, one place for celebration, one place for, uh, what else do they come there for besides forgiveness of sins and celebrations? [laughs]
David: Those are the big ones.
Seth: Those are the big ones.
David: And thank- thanksgiving.
Seth: And thanksgiving. Like, the one place that they came to is the one place we come to in Jesus Christ.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He is where we find all of those things. We shouldn't go to other gods or other shrines or other locations, but to Jesus Christ alone.
David: Yeah, definitely. And I think we have to, we have to remember too is, like, every, every other type of sacrifice is prohibited in this passage.
Seth: Mm.
David: That like, and, and they're not to worship and make sacrifices, um, ei- either in the same fashion or to the same gods, you know, as the, as the inhabitants. And, um, I think for us, there, there is still that scandal of exclusivity-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to Christianity, that we say that there's salvation found in no one else, for no other name-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... has been given under heaven or Earth by which men must be saved. That's from Acts, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: Yeah. And so it's like-
Seth: What's funny is I'd not thought about, like, the ancient world being opposed to exclusivity.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It's like whenever I hear about, like, exclusivity, people are complaining that, like, modern mind just can't handle exclusivity, but that's actually not true.
David: No.
Seth: It's not just the modern mind, it was the ancient mind too.
David: Oh, definitely.
Seth: Why can't I go worship God down-
David: Yep
Seth: ... down in my village?
David: Yep.
Seth: I can worship God wherever I want.
David: Yep.
Seth: I don't need to go to one place and to one temple. That's exclusive. That's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... restrictive.
David: Restrictive.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I mean, and think about John 4 and the Samaritan woman. "You Jews say we can only worship in Jerusalem, but we say we can worship here in Samaria."
Seth: Yeah, that's a good point.
David: So is that o- like, and it's like, yeah, exclusivity was always scandalous. [laughs]
Seth: Fascinating.
David: And so it's true, though. It's like there is only one... So, so I think what, what we need to lean into here is why, why do Christians claim that there is only one place to find salvation? Is it because we're bullheaded and narrow-minded? No. What we would say here out of Deuteronomy 12, it's, it, it's because God himself has come to uniquely-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... dwell in the person of Jesus and provide sa- salvation through his atoning death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so it's like there's only one place, and like, so come. Like, sojourn to the temple and, like, freely take.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, uh, it's just, it, it-
Seth: Over and over again in this passage, don't offer sacrifice anywhere else but at the place the Lord will choose.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: At the place the Lord will choose. The place the Lord has chosen is Jesus Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: There is no salvation anywhere else. Why? Because God has chosen that place. That is the good news of Deuteronomy 12. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so we've looked at the unique place where God is going to dwell, make his name, take up residence there. This is the one place Israel's supposed to worship, and that is to make them distinct among the nations. Everyone else can worship wherever they want, kind of however they want, even to the point of sacrificing their own children to their unholy gods.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God is saying, "I want you to be distinct and holy and different and good." And so now we're going to hear about, like, what happens when someone breaks these laws [laughs] and like-
Seth: What if somebody doesn't want to worship at the place the Lord has chosen?
David: Yes.
Seth: What happens when a prophet, a family member, or influential people within a city decide we can worship wherever we want?
David: Yep.
Seth: Or tempt you to worship wherever you want.
David: Yes, right, and this is where we get the difficult, controversial, famous, uh, kind of like blasphemy death laws. [laughs] Like, these, here we-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... here we have God saying, um, that if anyone, um, tries to lead you astray to follow other gods and worship the, in, in the ways that they do, you must put them to death.
Seth: This has already come up in Leviticus, so we've had a couple instances where, like, death is commanded for people who are trying to lead people away from the Lord. Um, and this is a retelling of that and giving three very specific examples, and the first example is when a prophet prophesies correctly but then decides to lead you astray.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I think the reason this is, leads you to other god, this, the reason this is the first one and the reason this is here at all is because of Balaam.
David: Oh, right. At the end of Numbers.
Seth: Because Balaam prophesies a coming messiah.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: He only pronounces blessings towards Israel. He chooses to become a part of Israel, has a track record as a good, fair, righteous maybe prophet, and then leads them to worship other gods-
David: Yep
Seth: ... which leads to Phinehas, like, spearing somebody through the belly.
David: That's right.
Seth: So this is here because-
David: Wow
Seth: ... in Israel's history, [laughs] they have literally listened to the voice of a false prophet-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and been led astray.
David: Yep.
Seth: So you say, "Don't repeat your history. Don't do that again." [laughs]
David: That's amazing. I've, I did not make that connection when I was reading this-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... but that is spot on. It's just so cool too that God is, like, giving laws that directly relate to-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... Israel's cultural moment, you know? [laughs] Where it's like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, I think I always view these laws as like coming down from heaven in a vacuum and-
Seth: Right
David: ... just being like, "This is who I am. I am Yahweh. I am God. I'm like this, so live this way." And it's like, no, God is interacting with Israel's surroundings, their history, their, uh, inclinations. Like, it's just v- a very-
Seth: Right
David: ... very cultured, historical command, and that catches me-
Seth: So-
David: ... off guard in a good way.
Seth: That means the next one, which is specifically about your brother-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's Aaron.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: Moses' brother led him, them as-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the Israelites astray at the golden calf.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: And he's saying, "Even if your brother ca- calls you to worship a foreign god, put him to death."
David: Yeah.
Seth: This has led to disaster for the nation of Israel.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, do not do this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Put that one person to death instead of risking the entirety of the Kingdom of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because of one person's sin.
David: Wow. Yes. What's, does the third one have a cool thing like that too? [laughs]
Seth: I was trying to figure it out 'cause this one, it's if you hear in one of the, your cities which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and drawn away from the inhabitants of the city, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods which you have not known." I, I don't know. The only thing that comes to my mind from certain worthless fellows is the mixed multitude-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the rabble in the wilderness. So it could be that parallel.
David: Right.
Seth: There was the mixed multitude, these Egyptians, these other slaves from other nations that came with Israel out of Egypt, who consistently throughout the book of Numbers draw people away from trusting the Lord, not listening to the provisions that God made with manna and the quail, and led them to worship other gods and disobey the God of heaven.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: So I think maybe these are all, like, examples-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... including this one. I'd, I'd have to do more study on the certain worthless-
David: Sure
Seth: ... fellow thing, but I think they're all examples from Israel's history.
David: Definitely.
Seth: These are three types of people who have led you astray in the past. Instead of causing the whole nation, thousands of people to die, kill the person responsible-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for leading you away from the Lord.
David: Yeah. A- a- before we talk about death, um, I think I'll, I'll stay on the subject of who is leading people astray, and I think it's a, it's a really sobering warning to be like, but this, like, really trustworthy public figure who has been right and has led people correctly, uh, now it seems like he's doing something different, and he seems like he's leading people astray. But because of what he's done in the past, I'll trust him, you know, kind of like Balaam. Uh, and like there's a warning there. And then there's like the brothers. Tho- and, and it even talks about like even your own wife and children and-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... it like gets really personal. Uh, you know, I mean, Aaron and Moses were close, like really close. You know, Aaron was Moses' mouthpiece, you know? And so they were really close. And I'm just like, that is a hard command. Uh, but it reminds-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... me of like the if you don't hate your own mother or brother, father-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... or your, you know, um-
Seth: More than me
David: ... more than me.
Seth: You're not worthy of me.
David: Which, what Jesus says. And so it's like we must prioritize God as our father and giver of truth above family ties. We must, we must accept his name given in the-
Seth: Right
David: ... in the tabernacle above our own family name that we've been given at birth.
Seth: It also reminds me of the passages in the New Testament where Paul talks about church discipline-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and sending somebody out of the church.
David: Yep.
Seth: If you have somebody within your church leading people astray or living in a way that's not, like that they're not obeying the Lord and causing other people to come with them, it is better to push them out of the congregation, not as a means of cruelty, but a means of recognizing what's actually happening.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They've been given over to Satan in their heart, and they're pulling other people towards Satan as well.
David: Yep.
Seth: So kick them out of the church. Show the congregation and him what's actually happening, happening in his heart. He has been given over to Satan-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so that he might repent and come.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think there's like parallels there.
David: Oh, hugely.
Seth: We don't need to go into-
David: Yeah, I mean-
Seth: We don't need to go into them in a huge amount of detail, but you should know as a listener, like that's what's ha- like that's what Paul's drawing on here.
David: Oh, big time. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I mean, and you know, I th- I don't think we've been shy about it here. We believe that the church is the new Israel, you know? And so obviously this is a picture of that, [chuckles] like by continuing-
Seth: Although I've been reading more and more about like what that means precisely, and I'm g- really excited when we get to like-
David: Oh, boy
Seth: ... parse out like what that means.
David: Okay.
Seth: And like is new Israel separate from the church?
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: In what ways are they separate and what ways are they similar? Anyway.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Teasers.
David: Lots of, lots of wonderfully cont- controversial things there.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Um, no one cares about those ideas. Uh, anyway, and so, um, yeah, well, while we're talking about New Testament parallels, um, I think even, um... So I think there's like the if you don't hate your father and mother, you know, y- y- you know, you're not worthy-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of me.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There's that one. There's the one about excommunication. And then I think it even gets like really personal, and I'm wondering since the, the Sermon on the Mount that Jesus, you know, preaches, um, in Matthew 5, 6, 7, uh, is, is a parallel of the Torah, that he's picking up on the law of Moses.
Seth: Right, right, right, right.
David: If he's pulling on these ideas of cutting off family members and, and, and casting them out, even like burning things in, in the fire, like we get to that in the next chapter, like whenever there's like, um, uh, like the, the Asherah poles and stuff get burned in the fire.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: I'm just wondering if he's pulling all of th- all this imagery when he says, "If your right arm causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away."
Seth: Mm-hmm. Right.
David: You know, 'cause it's better for you to go into heaven without an arm than for your whole self to be thrown into the fire.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm wondering if he's like w- with the same extreme attitude that I told you to preserve purity and holiness in the camp of Israel and now in the church, you should maintain that same extreme actions and attitudes towards your own body. That-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like if something's causing you to sin, it's going to take your whole body down, just like one person would take the whole congregation down.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so cut it off. Throw it away. Get rid of it. I feel like he's pulling on some of these images here.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, he literally says, "Throw it into hell."
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs] Like, right?
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Like it's, it's better than one part of your body to be thrown into hell than all of you to be.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so that's what's happening here too. I think it helps us understand this text too, is it's like it's better for... I know it seems very intense to, to kill someone, to like, you know, put them to death.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, but it's better than a whole nation dying, you know? And so-
Seth: Right
David: ... like, a- and, um, yeah, I, it's just that parallel to me was, was pretty stark. I don't know what you think.
Seth: It is. I mean, it is interesting. I, I haven't... I didn't, I didn't, I didn't pull up on that, but, but you're right. Like the severity... I mean, again, like, like there's a personal severity there, but there's also like the eternal severity-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of what happens. Like, so there, we were talking about exclusivity of the claims of Jesus. Like Jesus is the one name, the one place where you come to for sacrifice. And here, people who disobey and do not worship in the place that the Lord has chosen are killed.
David: Yeah.
Seth: In the New Testament, if we do not worship in the place the Lord has chosen, in the name the Lord has chosen of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, we are, we're not killed, but we are separated from the Lord eternally.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like the, the consequent, consequence is hell.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's not that the New Testament is less offensive than the Old Testament. It's, it ratchets up the-
David: It does
Seth: ... commands here. Like if you have a problem with the killing commands here, you have a problem with the concept of hell.
David: Yes.
Seth: And the, if you have a proce- concept of hell, you have a problem with the killing commands here, and th- they're not unseparated from one another.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Seth: So if you're listening, I don't know how I can reconcile these things. I think what you just need, you need to wrestle with, do you truly trust the Lord choosing something and you choosing something else is actually treason?
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, do you actually believe that you're committing a crime-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... against the kingdom of God?
David: Right.
Seth: Because God, according to his word, says you are.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like if you decide that there are other gods, other kings, other idols that you would wor- rather worship in your own way, in your own place, it is treason.
David: Mm.
Seth: And treason in the kingdom demands death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Whether eternally, because God is eternal-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or in the nation, because this nation was temporal.
David: Right.
Seth: Both are true.
David: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really helpful. And I mean, it's a, it's a difficult concept to grapple with, but I think you're right. Like if we can't accept this m- this smaller version, how can we accept the ratcheted up version of hell, um, in terms of, uh, blasphemers being put to death? I think it's really important for us to, to, to look at Jesus here and see that what was, what, what, what was the charge- ... against him that led to his sentencing to the cross. It was blasphemy.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, it was blasphemy.
Seth: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: And so he was being charged w- and, like, they used Deuteronomy 13 against him. "The blasphemer shall be put to death." Like-
Seth: That's, uh, that's fascinating
David: ... take, take him out of the city and stone him.
Seth: Yeah, you're right. You're right, you're right.
David: But who was the blasphemer in that situation? It was the people calling him a blasphemer. Like, he literally died on behalf of the blasphemers. He died the death of a blasphemer on behalf of blasphemers.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, and so we are the ones who have blasphemed God. We have, we have not chosen what God has chosen, as you said earlier.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, we have not obeyed the law that he's laying down here. We've not o- we've not acted consistently with his character. We've wronged our brothers. We've elevated ourselves.
Seth: Committed the sin of treason. Yeah. [laughs]
David: That's right. We've built idols, uh, in our hearts and in re- and in reality. We've not worshiped at the one place that he's told us to worship.
Seth: We've drawn people to worship the things that we worship-
David: That's right
Seth: ... rather than the one true God.
David: Yep. We've drawn people away. And so Jesus was, was- allowed himself to be called a blasphemer, even though we were the blasphemers, in order to die this death so that we wouldn't-
Seth: Right
David: ... have to die it. And, like, m- that's, like, it- that's a perfect picture of what 2 Corinthians is talking about when it says that God made him who knew no sin to be sin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And so, so that we might become the righteousness of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so literally he takes the title of blasphemer off of us and places it on himself, and then bears the penalty for that blasphemy, which is death, and so, uh, so that we don't have to. I think that's the picture here that we need to see of Jesus.
Seth: I think you're, you're very right. That's exactly right. [laughs] That's the good news of Jesus in this passage. And as I w- as you were talking, I kept thinking how in Deuteronomy 13, there is no mercy-
David: Oh
Seth: ... for the blasphemer.
David: Yes.
Seth: So yes, the consequences of blasphemy are increased in the New Testament, but so is the mercy. There is always a name where you can come-
David: Wow
Seth: ... and a sacrifice you can trust to escape the death that a blasphemer deserves.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: In Jesus, there is no one who is too far gone for God's grace and to be a part of his kingdom. [gentle music]
David: All right. So th- th- the concept of Israel's distinctiveness among nations continues here in a familiar command. So we looked at this back in Leviticus. If you want the, the longer discussion of it, you can go back to the Leviticus podcast. But here in Deuteronomy 14, we hear repeated the, um, food laws. So, you know, these are like the, um, the kosher laws that are kinda called today.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: What can you and can't you eat, right?
Seth: What's funny about this is that in the Leviticus where it kinda like names categories of animals-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... this one lists specific animals you can't eat.
David: Tony Howell. [laughs]
Seth: And when Leviticu- like, when Leviticus mentions specific animals, this one in Deuteronomy just lists the general rule.
David: Yeah.
Seth: [laughs] I thought it was funny.
David: So it is funny.
Seth: [laughs]
David: They complement each other. I mean-
Seth: Yeah, they do
David: ... yeah, they were definitely aware of each other. Um, yeah. Anyway.
Seth: Well, it's one author, Moses-
David: Yes
Seth: ... was writing the whole thing. [laughs]
David: Yes. Uh, and so, um, and so, uh, w- I just wanna give us a quick recap of what, why the food laws and how do we see Jesus in it. I'm just gonna try to blaze through this really quick, and then we'll get to the end-
Seth: Sure
David: ... of Deuteronomy 14. So let's remember here that, that God has chosen Israel. They're his chosen nation, and he has not chosen the inhabitants of the land. That's a distinctiveness that he is trying to reinforce all throughout the law. And so by his choosing of certain food groups other than, um, you know, different ones, uh, we're not given the reasons behind those selections. We're just told that he chose them, just like he chose Israel.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, and so by Israel eating the selected chosen diet that Yahweh has prescribed, they are publicly announcing and internally reinforcing the idea of their own distinctiveness because their diet is distinct. Their diet has been divinely chosen, just as they have been divinely chosen. So it's supposed to be a mirror of the fact that we are clean, so we eat what has been called clean. The nations are unclean, so they eat unclean food. And so it's supposed to be an external and an internal proclamation, uh, of who is chosen by God. And so when you fast-forward to the New Testament and you see that Jesus appears to Peter and negates these food laws, "Don't call anything that I've made unclean," Jesus says, what he's saying is that, "I have gotten rid of the distinction, the racial, ethical, national distinction between Israel and the rest of the world."
Seth: Yep.
David: "I, I, I now have chosen all people to be saved, and they, uh, can now all come. So you... So likewise, your diet can now reflect that. You know, have some bacon."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, every time you have bacon, you should be thinking like, "Oh, I'm really glad that my ancestors were, you know, Irish, and I'm now included in the people of God, so I can eat bacon."
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: You know? It's a, it's a-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, in, so that's kinda what's happening here. D- d- did that make sense?
Seth: Yeah, and specifically too, like, the other nations had food laws.
David: Yes.
Seth: The other nation had laws about what it meant to eat right, to worship right, to prepare your food correctly. I mean, the, it opens up with the famous one about tattoos that every, you know, teenage kid brings up, uh, with their parents. Uh, but, like, it's all about the way in which nations worship their gods.
David: Right.
Seth: Other nations had ways to mourn the dead. Other nations had food laws. Other nations had food preparation. Don't boil your mother- your, a young goat in its mother's milk.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, like, they all had laws about this, and these are different-
David: Yep
Seth: ... because God's people are different.
David: That's right. And so it's just meant to show their distinctiveness, and then whenever Jesus gets rid of the food laws, he's, he's not necessarily talking about diet. He's talking about who's in and who's out. Now he's saying-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... all people are in. So that's what happened.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. At the end of this chapter, I love the end of this chapter. Absolutely love it.
Seth: I was totally surprised by how much I enjoyed reading about the tithing-
David: Oh, it's so-
Seth: ... practices of ancient Israel
David: ... it's so great. It's so great. And so, uh, what happens is that the, the people of God are to set aside a tithe, uh, which is a 10th of all of their field's produce. And they are-
Seth: Okay
David: ... to take it-
Seth: At the harvest season
David: ... the harvest season. You-
Seth: You-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you're taking all- you're harvesting all your food, the first 10th of your field-
David: Yep, and your flocks
Seth: ... you- and your flocks-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and, like, everything-
David: That's right, and your-
Seth: Is-
David: You take-
Seth: The Lord's
David: ... it's, it's the Lord's. And so what I always thought growing up was that all of this was donated.
Seth: I did too.
David: Yes. N- it's not. And so-
Seth: It's not
David: ... okay, we'll talk about every third year later, okay?
Seth: Yeah.
David: But, but i- the, uh, the f- the two years back to back, what, what you do is you take your, your, your, uh, your offering or your grain and your animals, the 10th of everything you've made that year, and you bring it to the tabernacle, and it- you don't, you don't give it away. You eat it in front of the presence of the Lord. You have a party.
Seth: Yes.
David: You have a feast. And so you can imagine-
Seth: Yes
David: ... all these people bringing in a 10th of their yearly harvest and having this-
Seth: So j- just like-
David: ... gigantic feast
Seth: ... think about that. In, in, like, the average salary in the States, I think it's $40,000.
David: Okay. Yep.
Seth: So imagine every family taking four grand-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and spending it at one time-
David: Gosh
Seth: ... in one pla- like, just imagine a city doing that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: A four grand-
David: $4,000 feast per family
Seth: ... party. Yes. [laughs]
David: It's crazy. [laughs]
Seth: That's nuts.
David: It's crazy. And I'm just like... Oh, and then there's one other provision there, uh, that we can talk about, and it's, it's that if you- if, if the journey's too far, it, you know, to make with all your grain and all the animals and everything, you sell all that locally, and you take-
Seth: Yes
David: ... every penny that you made from the sell of that, you bring that money to the tabernacle, and there you buy, it says, "Whatever your heart desires-
Seth: Whatever you desire
David: ... whatever you crave."
Seth: Oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves.
David: Craves. It's like what-
Seth: It's the same word in Exodus.
David: Mm.
Seth: You craved meat.
David: Wow. Yep.
Seth: But now they crave and can eat whatever they want.
David: Yep, and that's what, and that-
Seth: I love that
David: ... and it, and it says that, I think, in verse, in, in chapter 12. It talks about-
Seth: It does.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It does.
David: Like, I'm giving you a provision to eat meat even in your own cities. Like, just don't ma- just don't make ritualistic sacrifices in your cities, but you can-
Seth: Yes
David: ... kill an animal and eat it in your, in your city. And so it's just amazing here that God is saying, like, "Whenever you come into my presence, here's what I want you to be thinking about and feeling." And, you know, he's like, "I want you-
Seth: Yes
David: ... to be satisfied, and I want you to just, like, glut yourself, and, like, just-
Seth: In the-
David: ... enjoy it
Seth: ... one of my favorite quotes from C.S. Lewis, it's a- he's actually talking about heaven, but it's when Prince Caspian dies, and Aslan is about to take him to Narnia's version of heaven. And Caspian says, "Before I go, can I see my friends?" Like, talking about Peter, Susan, Susan, Edmund, Lucy. And then he kinda catches himself, and he says, "Oh wait, is it okay to want that?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Can I, is that okay?" And Aslan responds by saying, "My son, you cannot want wrong things anymore."
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: And I thought, like, what a beautiful picture of what it's like to be in the land.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: To be in the promised land. Like, all the des- like, I will never want something sinful again.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Spent so much of my life second-guessing my decisions, wondering if something's the right thing to do, wondering if something's the wrong thing to do, whether or not that's in the right priority with the right people.
David: With the right motive. [laughs]
Seth: With the right motive. But one day I will not want wrong things anymore.
David: Yeah. Yeah, it's so good.
Seth: And on that day, on the day of tithe and the day of first fruits, you and I in heaven with the Lord will not want wrong things anymore.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: We will spend all of our treasures- [laughs]
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and eat whatever our hearts desire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it will be good.
David: Yeah, it's so good.
Seth: You know, it's like, it made me think of heaven, and I don't know if first fruits is supposed to make us think of heaven, but I think-
David: Well, I think, I think-
Seth: ... it's actually legitimate
David: ... the New Testament, I think the New Testament talks about first fruits in heaven, and, you know, Jesus is the first, the firstborn from the dead. Uh, he has, um, achieved the first fruits of which the rest of the church is the harvest. I think it makes sense.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Um, uh, you know, and it's just interesting you brought up the Exodus thing, where it's like, you know, you shall not want, you cannot want bad things anymore or wrong things anymore. And it's like, what they wanted in the wilderness, which was meat, they craved meat-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like you said, and it was wrong for them to do so. Now when they come into the presence of the Lord and they crave meat, it's good.
Seth: Right. Well, because then they weren't trusting God to provide it.
David: Yeah. But-
Seth: Because they were in the wilderness
David: ... that's right. Yep.
Seth: But now God has provided all around them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the meat is everywhere. It's a blessing to them.
David: Yeah, it's so good.
Seth: Um, it also made me rethink, too, like, saving for things like vacation.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, like, it actually made me rethink, like, how I budget for things. Like, vacation's something that's always on, like, the bottom of my list or, like, you know, like-
David: It's always on the top of mine
Seth: ... throwing a... [laughs] It's like, well, like, I want it to be at the top of mine, but it's like, oh, I gotta make the car payment. I've got, you know, I gotta, you know, whatever it is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, oh, our... I don't prioritize it-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the way the Israelites were supposed to-
David: Yes
Seth: ... prioritize it. The first 10% of the harvest every year was supposed to go towards enjoying it.
David: Yes. Yeah.
Seth: Which is like, I don't think that way about, like, saving money aside just to enjoy it at a big feast, a big party-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... a big vacation.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, I don't spend four grand a year on a vacation. You know, like-
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Anyway, it made me rethink my priorities when it comes to my money-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a little bit on, like, enjoying it.
David: I, I think people listening might be offended by that idea, that like, uh, you're talking about taking $4,000 vacation, like-
Seth: Right. [laughs] Yes
David: ... uh, and it's like, and you're trying to tell me that that's not only a, an okay thing to do, but it's, like, commanded. You know, and it's like, well, it's hard to draw a direct parallel between-
Seth: Not a command
David: ... yeah, yeah, between, like-
Seth: But it's like-
David: ... yeah, making a, taking a tithe to the tabernacle in the land of Israel, you know, and going, going to-
Seth: But what it communicates-
David: ... to the real world
Seth: ... is that the Lord wants you to celebrate-
David: Yes
Seth: ... what he has given you.
David: Yes, that's right.
Seth: And I don't have a celebratory attitude-
David: Mm
Seth: ... towards my budget.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like I th- my budget is a chain. And [laughs] you know, like it is like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... there are shackles-
David: I understand
Seth: ... on what I can and cannot spend.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And my enjoyment is not normally something I factor in-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to that extent.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I do a little bit, like I go on date nights.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know, we have, like b- like just money to spend on clothes or whatever.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But like is it a value the way that this is a value?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: I don't think so.
David: Good.
Seth: Like a celebration-
David: Right
Seth: ... or goal of my budget, do I celebrate in that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't think so.
David: Which I think, I think again, C.S. Lewis is helpful here, uh, because he talks about how, um, something is not truly enjoyed until it's celebrated.
Seth: Yes. He does.
David: And so it's like, how do you enjoy what God has given you? Celebrate. Like, like literally feast on it, you know? And so like I... It's making me rethink about when God or when Jesus tells us like to come and, you know, to eat his flesh and drink his blood and to, you know, feast on him, to drink from him, uh, rivers of living water. And like-
Seth: Mm-hmm. Yeah
David: ... he's like, "Come and celebrate me. Like, come and feast on me." And, um, and I think like one of the ways we can do that is in, you know, one of the most root platitudinous, um, r- things [laughs] that we do as Christians, which is like blessing a meal.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: You know, where we're like, "Thank you, God, for this food. Amen." And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. God wants you to taste and see that he's really good, and that he satisfies, and that he has provided, and like all this stuff. And it's like a meal, breakfast, lunch, dinner-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you know, after work drinks. That's like a thing that God wants you to do-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like in his presence. Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... giving him honor. Like whether you eat or drink, whatever you do, do it to the glory of God. Like we can-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... eat. And it's not like one of those th- I think we've, we've disassociated that text to be like, "Whatever you do, do it to the glory of God." No, he's talking literally about eating and drinking, you know, first.
Seth: Right.
David: Eating and drinking to the glory of God is a core principle of the Bible.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so it's like we need to, when we come around a table with friends, by ourselves, with family, when we enjoy a bottle of wine or whatever, like we need to be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... thinking like, "Thank you, God. You're so good."
Seth: Right.
David: "You've provided this." Y- And like knowing that he is infinitely more satisfying and delicious than whatever it is you're imbibing on.
Seth: And when we finally d- Jesus does return, what he throws for us is a wedding supper of the Lamb.
David: That's right.
Seth: Like there is a meal in heaven like this waiting for us.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's one of the ho- the good news of the gospel, that we eat with Jesus.
David: Yep.
Seth: We feast with Jesus on all the things that he's given us.
David: That's right. Yeah. It'll be an internal enjoyment of God, both, um, experientially in his presence, which will be the most supreme gift, but I think with the marriage supper of the Lamb, it will also be carnal-
Seth: Really good food
David: ... and really good food. Like-
Seth: Really good food
David: ... so it, yeah, it's amazing. I, yeah. Anyway, you know-
Seth: That's not the only thing we do with our tithe.
David: Oh, right. Every third year. Every th-
Seth: So every third-
David: Yep
Seth: ... so what happens is, so year one and two, you spend a 10th on your family in the Lord's presence, celebrating what he's given you.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then every third year, you take that 10%, you bring it to like a corporate pile.
David: Like a c-
Seth: You bring it-
David: ... like a city center
Seth: ... like a city center, and then all the people who do not have an inheritance in the land, so the Levites in particular, but also the poor and the needy-
David: Orphans, widows
Seth: ... orphans, can come to that kitty and take whatever they need.
David: That's right. Yep.
Seth: Which is-
David: Amazing
Seth: ... again, uh, it re- it challenged my assumptions about what it means to be generous with my money.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You know, it's like tithing is good.
David: Right.
Seth: I know that. But like this is like a really radical, like wh- every two, for two years, I'm gonna celebrate myself, and on the third year, I'm gonna deny myself-
David: Yes
Seth: ... so that people can do this.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And like it was like, it was really like, so I should sacrifice something so that other people can benefit.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, and I should feel it every three years.
David: Yeah. Right. Yeah. $4,000, just go take it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and give it to the, give it to orphans and-
Seth: $4,000 I just spent to go to Florida the last two years-
David: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Seth: ... are now being spent on I don't know what.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You know?
David: Right. I'm not going-
Seth: Um-
David: I'm not going to Florida this year-
Seth: Right
David: ... so that, um, a, a bunch of different marginalized people-
Seth: Right
David: ... can survive this year.
Seth: Yes. And, uh, we should mention that when you throw that $4,000 party, you're supposed to invite the-
David: Yes. [laughs]
Seth: ... Levite. You're supposed to invite people that don't have an inheritance, single moms.
David: Yep.
Seth: You're supposed to invite them into your home-
David: Yep
Seth: ... when you are celebrating. But we sh- I would just make that clear. So what this sets up then is a series, a cycle of seven years for the people of Israel.
David: Yep.
Seth: This is actually the next chapter, so I think it maybe just fits to talk about here.
David: Yeah, go ahead.
Seth: So in year one and year two, you tithe and you eat that, you celebrate that in the presence of the Lord.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Celebrate. Year three, you give it all away. Year four and year five, you enjoy it again.
David: Celebrate again.
Seth: Year six, you give it away.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then on year seven, you are not supposed to harvest anything from your field.
David: Right.
Seth: You're not supposed to work it, you're not supposed to put seeds into it. You just leave it fallow so that the Levite, the disinherited, the people that don't have land of their own can come, use your field, grow their own crops, and then they can survive for, for a period of time.
David: Yep.
Seth: So there's this cycle of se- And that's what the chapter 15's about, the sabbatical year-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the land, where you let it rest so that others might eat.
David: Yeah. Which is a huge topic that I wanna spend an actual episode on, but yes.
Seth: But that's like the-
David: It, it does lead into that, so I'm glad you mentioned it
Seth: ... the end of the cycle.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So like, anyway, what do you have? What do you think about that?
David: Well, I mean, we've kinda, we've talked about Jesus and, and the meal that he provides, you know, for us now in his flesh and blood, um, to sustain us, you know, spiritually, physically, emotionally, psychologically. Um, and then also how he has told us to, like, don't call anything he's made unclean. Eat it, enjoy it, love it.
Seth: Right.
David: You know? And, and let... Do that in his, in his presence for his glory and honor. Um, and then, um, and then we've also talked about, like, how do we also use our resources to, um, bless those around us, the poor? 'Cause ultimately, that's what Jesus did. He had the riches of heaven- Right?
Seth: Right.
David: And he, he, he denied himself, as you said, to give it to the needy, which was us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He gave us his very flesh and blood. He gave up not a tenth, he gave up 100%. He gave up everything in order to bless us with his very flesh and blood. And so, um, and then ultimately eschatol- eschatologically looking at the future kingdom of heaven and how we'll eat with Jesus in, in, you know, in his presence forever.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I think we've kinda covered it. Uh, it's beautiful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's a beautiful passage.
Seth: It's... K- Just like logistically, like if I'm an Israelite whose main source of income and food is my land-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and I'm not allowed to farm on it for an entire year, how do I survive?
David: Oh, yeah. Easy, easy answer. You ready?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, it's the same thing that God said on day six of, uh, their wilderness wanderings. You know?
Seth: Okay.
David: He would provide manna, and in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... day six he would provide a double portion, and they would bring in a double portion, and that way they would survive through day seven and, and th- that would be their resting day.
Seth: Right.
David: He gives the same provision for the, for the sixth year, that they would bring in... God, God would so bless their fields that they would bring in enough both for that year and the following year. And so they would have enough for two years for, based on one year's harvest.
Seth: Wow.
David: Which is a gigantic act of faith to say-
Seth: To... So I'm like-
David: ... "I'm gonna give up one year's wages because I trust-"
Seth: I'm trying to imagine like, yeah, it just doesn't work quite the same way when you get paid a salary by somebody. It's like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... you're not gonna get a 200, 100% incre- You're not gonna get a salary bump that big. I mean, maybe that's the point. [laughs] Maybe you trust God to give you that, but like, that's not the way it normally works. So anyway, I'm just think- I've been like, in putting myself in Israel's shoes, like what if for the next 70 years I did this?
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: Like, what if, what if th- starting now for the, I save 10% and next December I go on a $4,000 vacation?
David: Right, right, right.
Seth: The next December I do the same thing, and then next year I give all that four grand away.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then, you know, like what if I did that?
David: Yeah.
Seth: What would the seventh year look like-
David: Right
Seth: ... for somebody? Like, n- but really, like what would, how would we obey the command of the seventh year? Like, we can like make observations about principles of like using your money for both celebration and generosity.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But like, what's the, what is the seventh year, like principle?
David: Yeah. Yeah. So the seventh year principle, uh, I think there's a couple things to talk about here. Uh, one is we should recognize that it's widely agreed upon that Israel never celebrated the Year of Jubilee. They never obeyed it.
Seth: Wow.
David: Um, and so it was an ideal that was never realized on this earth. So I think that's something important to remember. So seven years came, no one did it. Seven years came, no one did it. The seven times seven years came, the 50th year, the, you know, the mega-
Seth: Right
David: ... Sabbath, the mega-Year of Jubilee, no one did it. And so when Jesus finally comes on the scene and says, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me," in Luke 4, "to proclaim good news to the poor," right? "For this is the year of the Lord's favor."
Seth: Oh.
David: We, we're to see, like this thing that we could never realize, um, where the poor are provided for out of the richness of another who has self-sacrificed, where the slaves are set free, people are given land that they've lost, people are brought back to a status that they had disinherited, is only ever fulfilled by Jesus. [laughs] It's too lofty a... Like, how does this work in our worldly economy? And there have been organizations, nonprofit groups, monastic movements who have tried to reenact this, and even they have failed. Like, and I'm not saying-
Seth: Wow
David: ... we shouldn't, we shouldn't try to apply these principles to our lives. I'm saying that when we are so overwhelmed with the size of this kind of social call and sacrifice and reorientation of the Kingdom, we should be like, "Oh, that's what Jesus did for us. Man, that is a mega-Sabbath. That is really, really good news-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that he's done." Yeah. And so I think that's one thing to remember, i- is that, like it's Jesus that fulfills this.
Seth: Yeah. Israel, by their failure to live out the seventh year, had oppressed the poor-
David: That's right
Seth: ... for their entire history. So when Jesus comes to pronounce good news to the poor, I've never like put those things together. Like, "I finally come to give you what Israel never could."
David: That's right, and what the law never could.
Seth: Fascinating.
David: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but uh, I, so but then I, I think that the, the call is stronger upon Christians, that it's not every seventh year that we do this. This is to be, um, we live within the Sabbath every day, and we are to always hold our possessions, our time, our talents, uh, loosely, and that they are always open-handed.
Seth: Mm.
David: That anyone who has need, we give to. You know, it's like, uh, John in 1 John 3 says that if you have resources and you see someone in need that you can help and you don't help them, how can God be in that person?
Seth: Mm.
David: He's saying, like, if God has put his name in you, you live the Year of Jubilee every day.
Seth: Wow.
David: And like that is even harder than thinking about, "How would I do this for one year?" No, no, no, no, no. We should be like, "Oh, how do I do this every day?" And it's, the only answer is like only when you've been radically impacted by the mega-Sabbath that Jesus has brought through his death-
Seth: Mm
David: ... burial, and resurrection. So-
Seth: Wow
David: ... there's my answer to your Year of Jubilee question. [laughs]
Seth: Well, merry Christmas, guys, as we go on our own Sabbaths-
David: Merry Christmas. [laughs]
Seth: ... and contemplate how we need to be generous towards our kids and to our family members with our Christmas bonuses or whatever else-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... we have in our pocketbooks. Like, bless others.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Be generous with others. Give to the poor. Um, rest well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Enjoy all the Lord has provided. Celebrate and be generous this season.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: This is a good Chris- This is a Christmas-
David: This is a Christmas episode
Seth: ... episode.
David: Yep.
Seth: I didn't realize that, but it definitely is. [laughs]
David: I didn't either. I love it. Well, yeah. Thank you, guys, and uh, yeah, enjoy the holidays. And uh, we're gonna go on a winter break, but we will see you in January. So uh, merry Christmas.
Seth: Merry Christmas. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
