Intro: [electronic music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [electronic music]
David: All right, welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Spoken Gospel.
David: There it is. Oh, I like that.
Seth: [laughs]
David: That's nice. And, uh, today we're gonna be talking about Exodus 11 through 13, most of 13. We'll stop around, what was it, verse 16?
Seth: 16.
David: Yeah, I think so. Uh, and, uh, we, today we're talking about the Passover, right?
Seth: The death of the firstborn.
David: The death of the firstborn-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, all that good stuff.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Yeah, Passover.
Seth: Yeah, have you ever done a Passover before?
David: A Passover? Have I ever done a Passover?
Seth: Done a, done a Christianized version [laughs] of a Passover before.
David: Yeah, I did the Lord's Supper.
Seth: [laughs] But how, whenever growing up, we would host a Passover Seder meal, and then we'd have some-
David: What's, what's a Seder mean?
Seth: That's, that's essentially the Passover feast is what it's called, the whole meal, the whole setup.
David: The whole thing is called the Seder.
Seth: The Seder. And, uh, there's a lot of tradition that's been added to it over the course of years, but there's all these interesting elements of the meal that point to Jesus, and so a lot of churches will, like, do a thing where they do the Passover meal and then show you how each one of those parts point to Jesus.
David: Strange.
Seth: Strange. [laughs]
David: They could've just done the Lord's Supper.
Seth: Well, you know, [laughs] it does-
David: No offense to my Passover Seder friends who are listening
Seth: ... it does say that you, this is a statute that forever that you are supposed to, to follow, which is probably where they take it from. So we're doing the Passover now, so.
David: Oh. Well, that, oh, that'll be fun to talk about-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... how Jesus is the fulfillment of that later.
Seth: Right. So anyway, it's actually kind of fascinating because-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as you're, you're supposed to, like, so there's this mixture of bitter herbs that you're supposed to eat, and you're supposed to remember your own sin and then wash it down with the wine, like the blood. So, like, there's little, little elements that point to Jesus through it. I mean, it's edifying as far as it goes, but, um-
David: And tasty except for the bitter herbs.
Seth: Except for the bitter herbs. They're pretty, actually pretty terrible. But-
David: Yeah, okay. And, and what, so do you, like, cook a whole lamb?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Is it just, like, out on a table?
Seth: Well, I think most of the time now it's, like, lamb chops.
David: Lamb chops. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] It's like not a whole roasted lamb.
David: That's so lame.
Seth: Especially in the church, 'cause you don't wanna, like, you know, have a roasted lamb with all the innards there and then burn 'em out back 'cause you burn-
David: Well, if you don't, if you don't wanna have a Passover, don't hold a Seder, you know? That's, that's the old saying.
Seth: There's, like, an empty seat for Elijah, like he comes and visits the meal.
David: Wait, is that real?
Seth: It's real. [laughs]
David: What? [laughs] This is getting more and more strange.
Seth: Well-
David: If you, if you do a Seder and you, like, if you're listening right now-
Seth: And we're totally missing point
David: ... and you're doing a Seder, we invite you to email us, um, and we'll give you the information on the description and later on in the episode. Email us why you do it and, and why it's important to you, what it means to you. We'd love to hear from that, and maybe we can interact with it on the show sometime. All right. Let's talk about, um, what's going on in the text of Exodus 11 through 13. All right, Seth, you wanna take it over with, uh, 11:1?
Seth: Moses is threatening the final plague, uh, the death of the firstborn. It, uh, which is really intense.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But we also notice a parallel with Pharaoh's own commands to kill the firstborn of Israel.
David: Right. That's right, and also God almost killing Moses' firstborn, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Except for the, the, the covenant of circumcision that, that kind of saved the day.
Seth: Yeah, and then after this, the people of Egypt, well, the people of Israel asked the Egyptians for all their silver and gold, and then the Egyptians hand it over, and the phrase is, "The people, uh, the Lord gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians," which is, I think, the word for grace.
David: Oh, is it?
Seth: Right, it's the word that actually of Noah. The guy who said Noah, he found favor in the sight of the Lord. He found grace in the sight of the Lord.
David: Oh, that's interesting.
Seth: So that's interesting. But that happens. And then Moses, um, at about midnight is told that, he tells Pharaoh that the Lord will come at about midnight and kill the firstborn in the land of Egypt, but not even a dog shall growl against any of the people of Israel, verse seven.
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: Um, again, it's that protection-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that God continues to extend over the Israelites.
David: The distinction he's making that we talked about last week-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... between the Egyptians and the Israelites.
Seth: And Pharaoh will not listen so that his wonders will be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
David: And again, so there, there again, you get the wise God doing this to multiply his wonders, to bring glory to his name, all that kind of stuff. Yep.
Seth: Yes. And then it's in this context that we're told, "Okay, now you're gonna celebrate a feast. And actually, not just celebrate a feast, you're gonna reorient your entire calendar around my redemption of you." Verse, or chapter 12.
David: So how, where, where do we see that?
Seth: So chapter 12 verse one, "This month shall be for you the beginning of months." [laughs]
David: So yeah. Okay, so it might've been October or September, but guess what? It's January now because-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... everything's starting new with this event. The, okay, so this is such a, so what God's saying here is like, "This is such a cataclysmic, uh, identifying event in the life of my people that I want you to begin your year around it from now on." Like, this is, everything centers around this, basically.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right, okay, cool.
Seth: Yeah, and on the 10th day of the month you're supposed to take a lamb, separate a lamb out from your flocks, and then it has to be without blemish, it has to be a male lamb, and then on the 14th day of the month, you kill it at twilight and eat it.
David: And, uh, and I think isn't between the 10th where they pick it out and the fourth where they-
Seth: 14th
David: ... the 14th where they cook it, isn't that, like, preparation? They're preparing the lamb and everything like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think so.
David: I think so, too, yeah.
Seth: And then-
David: 'Cause I, I know that, like, later on, like, I think the gospels talk about, um, the preparations were beginning for the Passover.
Seth: That's right, that's right.
David: And I think scholars talk about how this is, that's what happens between the 10th and the 14th day.
Seth: Then they take the blood of the lamb, and they put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of their house where they're going to eat it, and they're supposed to eat it dressed as if they're ready to leave.
David: Why's that?
Seth: Um, I don't know, a sign of faith or an-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... expectation of what God will do-
David: Right
Seth: ... in, in Egypt this time.
David: 'Cause this, all this is not, this is not just about Him passing over, it's also about Him rescuing His people out of slavery entirely. And so this is them being ready to go. Like, this isn't, this is a, there's, God is going to act expediently, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so we, we do it with staff in hand, with my belt on. Uh, a- and I think he, He doesn't even talk about, like, eat it in haste.
Seth: Yeah, eat it in haste.
David: It's like, "Dude, just wolf this meal down."
Seth: [laughs]
David: "Like, inhale this sucker." And, uh, I, I, uh, uh, I don't know if it's here. I, I'm like, I'm, I've read so, I read so many different Passover passages today or about the, the feast, but I know, like, how they decide, um, I think it's later, but how they decide how they're, how, uh, how many people can come around one lamb is, is, is based on how much one person can eat.
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: Which I love that. It's like, "All right, Joe, Joe, how much, how much does lamb you..."
Seth: "I got, I got a leg and a breast and two, two shanks and a rib."
David: If your family's too small, you're supposed to invite as many people as you can-
Seth: To finish the lamb
David: ... to make sure that the lamb's gone. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. And we're told even in verse, uh, chapter 12 verse 39 that they are thrust out of Egypt. They still had, like, cake, leaven cake, unleavened cakes, like, ready to go. So, like, it's, it actually ha- So you're supposed to eat it in haste as if you were about to leave.
David: Right.
Seth: And that actually happens.
David: Actually happens. They actually-
Seth: Like, they're in the middle of eating, and all this dough is sitting around, so they just take it with them.
David: They just take it with them.
Seth: And go.
David: Unleavened. Ready to go. Yep. Okay.
Seth: Yeah, and then, um, we're told that the Lord will execute His judgment because He is the Lord. And then verse 13: "He'll see the blood as a sign on the houses where they are. And then when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Which David actually picks up that language in Psalm 91.
David: Oh, does he?
Seth: He does. He's like, "No, no plague will come near your, your tent, your dwelling, your place."
David: Oh, man.
Seth: During this event.
David: Oh, that's interesting. And so, uh, I mean, a couple things that I see, right, right away is all the personal pronouns that God is using here. Like, "I will come," and, "I will see," and, "I will pass over," or, "I will kill." And, like, this is God acting. A- a- but later we see it as the angel of death, right? So-
Seth: The destroyer
David: ... the destroyer. Um, so how, is this God, or is this a third party who comes and does this killing?
Seth: And we're told that it, I mean, God claims it for Himself.
David: Right.
Seth: Um, I'm trying to find the verse where He says it really explicitly, 'cause I underlined it because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I, do I really believe this?" [laughs]
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Yeah, verse 15 of chapter 13: "For when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the Lord killed all the firstborn of the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of animals."
David: Wow. So even though that there, even though there's this third party, this destroyer that comes through, um, who might be an executor of God's judgment, it is, behind it all is Yahweh Himself.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is really hard for probably a lot of us 21st century people to, to come to grips with.
Seth: I'm sure it was, it seemed like it was hard for even the Israelites to fathom because they turn away from G- I don't know, it's, we're never told that it's because of God. No, never mind.
David: Yeah, I don't know if they had, like, a theodicy problem, like a problem with God's justice, is what that means.
Seth: Right. They were, they were enslaved. They, the Isr- the Egyptians were getting what was coming to them, right?
David: They're like, "Bring it on." Yeah, they, they probably loved that. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, which w- we would say any enslaved people group-
David: Absolutely
Seth: ... is looking for justice.
David: Well, and we too. Like, whenever we watch a movie or something with an oppressed people in it, and the enemy gets what's coming to them, these horrible, wicked people, we cheer in the theater.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, we, we, we, we love justice far more than we let on. Whenever we try to isolate these moments of God's wrath, be like, "Oh, God would never act that way," and then we're in a theater where it happens to the bad guy, we're like, "Yeah, it's awesome." And it's like-
Seth: And that's [laughs] because we put our place in, we put ourselves in the place of the oppressor. Only the oppressor doesn't like to be judged.
David: Ooh, that's good.
Seth: So. [laughs]
David: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yep, that's right. Oh, no, I, no, you can't judge me, God. Like-
Seth: No, that's what the oppressor says.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Whoops.
Seth: So moving on.
David: There we go.
Seth: [laughs] Um, and then the day that they eat a lamb is the beginning of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread. For seven days, they eat unleavened bread.
David: Right. And God says they, they're not supposed to leaven any of their bread, and they're not even supposed to have any leaven in their houses at all. Like, no leaven whatsoever.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, I read some stuff on this, and most people are like, "What in the world? Why no leaven? Like, what is going on?" And they tried to, they tried to allegorize it and stuff, and they tried to talk about how maybe it's a sign of, like, um, s- like, there's something talking about something about spoiling something. I can't even remember. But I think for me it's all about this, is it just hastiness that's just, like, leaven takes a while to rise, and so unleavened bread is, "We're leaving. Get ready."
Seth: It is, yeah.
David: It's expectancy.
Seth: But there's also a sense in at least the Gospels where leaven is a substitute for sin.
David: Right.
Seth: So Jesus warns the disciples with the leaven of the Sadducees and the Pharisees, and even leaven's been-
David: But doesn't He also talk about the kingdom of heaven being like a little bit of leaven that works through the whole loaf?
Seth: Yeah, He does.
David: So that wouldn't work. [laughs]
Seth: Leaven is complicated.
David: Leaven's a complicated-
Seth: I think you're right. In this story-
David: What's your relationship with leaven?
Seth: It's, it's complicated.
David: It's complicated. [laughs]
Seth: I like a good bread, and I also like a good cracker.
David: You do. Yeah, you make your own bread.
Seth: I do.
David: You, sourdough champion.
Seth: Not all my sourdough recipes-
David: I like, I like your sourdough
Seth: ... come out terribly. But I think the point here is that it's made in haste. It's quick.
David: Yeah, I think so.
Seth: It's like, it's taken away.
David: Think so.
Seth: And then God reiterates again that when they put the blood on the doorpost, God will see the blood, and the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to enter the
Seth: Why do we have protection coming through sacrifice now?
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: Because God's been protecting the people from a lot of these plagues and required no sacrifice, required no blood. Why now?
David: I know, I know one of the things is we haven't seen the narrative talk about them being, we, we see them being saved from, like, flies, and boils, and the death of their livestock, but we haven't seen them being saved from personal death, uh, and, and, and, like, that death entering their homes and taking the life of their firstborn. And so I think that once we, once we talk about personal death and being, how do we be saved from personal death, I think that's whenever there has to be this price paid. Um, is that, I mean, does that make any sense?
Seth: No, that does. I mean, I mean, there is, like, this is the most intense form of God's judgment, and when it comes to the most intense form of God's judgment, the most explicit need for protection, I guess, is made clear. Like, how God is actually providing protection retroactively.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like, how did God protect Israel from the flies? On what basis did he say, "I will protect you"?
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's actually in the Passover, right?
David: Yeah, maybe. Uh, that, I, I think that, that could definitely be argued. I think also what we, what we see here, we can go back to, I think, I think we can go back to Abra- or, sorry, to Moses on his way to Egypt, and I think that can be helpful. Remember that obscure story we talked about a couple weeks back with God going to kill his, his firstborn son, and, um, and then his wife, Zipporah, circumcises his son really quickly and dabs the foreskin on Abraham's, Abraham, I keep saying Abraham, on Moses' feet, and then God relents. And I think what this shows us is that not, is that just, like, Moses, just because he was God's chosen instrument does not make him void or excluded from God's wrath, that he is also guilty of sin and deserving of God's wrath, and so a price had to be paid. Like, he had to enter the covenant through bloodshed, and in the same way, just because there's a distinction being made by Yahweh between Egypt and Israel does not mean that Israel has no sin that does, that, that, that, that doesn't need to be dealt with. Like, they have sin, it needs to be dealt with, and so this price has to be paid. God is setting a precedent for how he will deal with the personal sin and death of his people.
Seth: Do you think Israel knows that at this point?
David: No. No, I don't think so at all.
Seth: You don't think they know, like, this blood isn't just, this isn't just a, a protective spell I'm casting. This is actually a, for an omen of my own sinfulness, um, just like Pharaoh.
David: I don't know. I don't, I don't-- It'd be hard to say. You'd have to ask about, like, how the, how, how Yahweh was re- reusing some cultural symbols of their time in Egypt, um, 'cause they, they're not unfamiliar with sacrifice. Sacrifice was not something that was foreign to them.
Seth: They're going into the wilderness to sacrifice.
David: To sacrifice. They under- they have categories for these things. Um, you know, the, the Egyptians had sacrifices. They had priests, and so they wouldn't be completely oblivious to what was going on. But in terms of, uh, I think they only understood the gods a- as those who needed to be placated. They didn't understand that actually it was justice for offense to this god. They were just, the gods were angry, and they, like, they needed to be, they needed to persuade them to act a certain way. They didn't understand that no, like, the God, the one God of, the one God, Yahweh, is just and good, and in his justice and goodness, he brings justice onto me as a human person who has committed a, a sin against him. I don't know if they've put all that together yet. I'm, I'm sure they see some corollary between what's going on with this God interacting with people and the sacrifice, but I don't think it's until they get the law and we get to Leviticus and those things that they start to see sacrifice and sin going hand in hand. Would you agree, or do you think there's something bigger?
Seth: I think that's probably true. Maybe, I mean-
David: It's hard to say
Seth: ... you'd have to be a pr- you could be an insightful Israelite in this scenario. [laughs] You could be, it's like, okay, there's, like, substitution.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The blood of another protects me.
David: Right. My son would die if this, if this lamb didn't die. Substitution's not hard to come by there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, there's clear substitution. You get, you get what-
Seth: And we actually see a lot more of that in this story, right? So after, if we just wanna skip over a little bit of the institution of the Passover, once, maybe we shouldn't. Well, let's, let's get there. So what happens next in the story? The plague happens, right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: The plague happens, and all of the firstborns are killed in the land of Egypt, and there's a cry that's heard, and not a house where some- uh, there was not a house where someone was not dead, verse 30.
David: Yeah, it's also interesting that it's everyone from Pharaoh to the slaves of Egypt. No, no one is, no one is excluded from this. Even the prisoners, like, even people who are imprisoned, uh, fall under this, this, this plague. So it's not just for the elite. Like, even the poor-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... fall under this curse.
Seth: Yeah, and then verse 32, Pharaoh finally relents, said, "Okay."
David: Right.
Seth: "Take, take them away." And I think it's interesting that he asks Moses to bless him, uh, but [laughs] he, he relents and sends them away.
David: Take your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and be gone. And bless me also. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Like, he just gets one last shot.
David: Please bless-
Seth: One last selfish shot in there. And then it happens. The Egyptians are pushing the Israelites out. They don't want any more death. They don't want any more destruction. Uh, and then the Lord gave the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians since they gave them all the jewels and gold they asked for, and they plundered the Egyptians.
David: Right, which was promised way back to Abraham, that they would be enslaved for a long time, but when they left, they would inherit great riches.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And here it is. It's happening.
Seth: And here it is. And as they're moving out, we're also told in verse 38 a mixed multitude also goes out with them. Presumably some Egyptians are going with them. They've seen the acts of the Lord.
David: Yep.
Seth: And they said, "This is the true God. I will follow him."
David: Right.
Seth: Presumably-
David: It could've, it could've also been other enslaved people groups, right?
Seth: It could've been enslaved people groups.
David: So, it's like, you know, you have this huge uh, monolithic power of Egypt, and they aren't just enslaving Israelites, they're enslaving all kinds of people most likely. And so perhaps God saved multiple people out of this, out of these slaves. Maybe it was just Israel 'cause they're the only ones talked about, and it convinced Egypt. To me, that sounds like the more obvious reading.
Seth: We also know that this mixed multitude's caused problems in the future for the people of Israel. They're mentioned other times as the reason why Israel wants to go back to Egypt, so they're called the rabble.
David: Mm.
Seth: They're called the crowds. They're, they're used different, different language is used for this p- p- people group about part of the reason why they're tempted, why they're grumbling, why they wanna go back to Egypt.
David: Oh, that's interesting. And so this distinction that God makes between His people and not His people, it seems that the not His people people [laughs] end up causing trouble for His people people.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But the, His people join in their grumbling.
David: Right.
Seth: Join in their desire.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Join in their claim. So even though they're different and set apart, there's also this kind of you-
David: Hard hearts love company.
Seth: Hard hearts love company, [laughs] yeah. So anyway, they, they leave, uh, and we're told that they're supposed to remember this throughout all the generations, and then the Lord institutes the Passover. "This is the statute of the Passover," verse 43, "and no foreigner shall eat of it." And I think the reason why he mentions that there is because it's a mixed crowd. There's foreigners among them, and so there's actually a lot of provisions here for people who are foreigners. And they said, "If you do wanna eat of it, you must become part of the covenant people by circumcision."
David: Right. So it's not that you, that no foreigner can eat of it, it's no foreigner can eat of it without joining into the covenant.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay.
Seth: Yes. And then we're told a couple more details about the lamb, that you're supposed to eat it in the house, that you're not supposed to take any flesh outside the house, and you shall not break any of its bones, which John picks up and said this was actually fulfilled in Jesus.
David: Not one of his bones were broken.
Seth: Not one of his bones were broken.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So we have already, we're told that this is about Jesus. And then we are looped back in to our discussion of the firstborn, all this, like why the firstborn, why the protection, and what's going on here. And so in chapter 13, God tells Moses to consecrate, to separate, to make distinct all the firstborn. Whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of man and beast is God's.
David: So would this be a good place to talk about why the firstborn? What, what's significant about that? Because, you know, in my, i- in our families, everyone's special, you know? [laughs] Like, everyone, I love you and your sister equally, you know? [laughs]
Seth: I mean-
David: Which it, it wasn't true
Seth: ... it's, it's a lie, but. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yeah, parents always have their favorites. But there's something very distinct about what, what was so special about the firstborn in this culture or in this time. Um, uh, is this a good place to talk about that?
Seth: Yeah, I mean, so most, most obviously it was, it's, the firstborn is the one who will inherit all the family's wealth-
David: Okay, yep
Seth: ... and become the new patriarch when the father dies.
David: Right.
Seth: So the firstborn is a sign of the continuation of the family line.
David: Yes, that, that this family will not end, my family will continue. Um, all throughout the law even, we see, like, all these provisions made to make sure that each family has progeny, like a male progeny to continue on that family name, that clan name, and that tribe name.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, we see that.
Seth: Right, and so what we're seeing here when God says, "Consecrate for me the firstborn," w- we see that as a, as a sacrifice almost, we see it as almost as something that's, like, demanded of us. But for, for God, it's His way of determining the promises, His promises will continue to the next generation, that they will not be lost, um, by cir- by circumstance, that God is declaring, "I will continue my promises to your next generation."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "You aren't the only ones that will receive it."
David: And we have to capture this in this longer narrative that's been taking place in Exodus, where it seems like the firstborn die. They just die. Like, uh, early on it was because of the edict of Pharaoh that the firstborn Israelites were dying, but then we see that no, actually, like, God requires the firstborn to die, not just because they're firstborn, but because they're representative, we'll talk about that here in a second, of, of, of the whole family, and there's sin that needs to be taken care of. We see that when he comes and tries to take Moses' firstborn, and, and, and he's saved through the covenant and bloodshed, and then he comes and takes Pharaoh's and all of Egypt's firstborn, and he would've taken Israelites', the Isr- Israel's firstborn if they hadn't had had this blood spread over the, the, the posts. And so now he says, "I, I bought your firstborn for you. Like, uh, they, I des- I, I should've, I could've taken them and I didn't, so I want you to consecrate them for me." Basically like, um, "I could've taken them and I didn't, so con- they're mine now."
Seth: Yeah, and in verse 11 it kinda ex- unpacks that a little bit and he says, he gives a bunch of different ways in which you redeem the first thing that opens the womb. "All the firstborn of your animals that are male shall be the Lord's." So I'm assuming that they sacrificed those animals in particular.
David: Yes, every animal except, uh, so, uh, every, so every unclean animal except for donkeys.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And donkeys didn't just get to live, they also had to be redeemed by a lamb, which was a clean animal.
Seth: And if you didn't, you were supposed to break its neck.
David: That's right.
Seth: And then every firstborn of man among your sons you shall also redeem, and you're supposed to sacrifice a lamb-
David: A lamb, yep
Seth: ... to redeem the firstborn son, I think. One, and so why? Why? And it says, right, "And when time your sons ask you, 'Why are we doing this? What does this mean?'" [laughs] Right, well, that's us. Uh, "By, and you shall say to him, 'By a strong hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt from the house of slavery. When Pharaoh refused to let us go, the Lord killed the firstborn land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of animals.' So I sacrifice to the Lord all the males that first open the womb, but all the firstborns of my sons I redeem." So we're repeating the story of Exodus in every birth, in every family of all of Israel, reaffirming that God will continue to rescue His people through all times, through all generations.
David: Right, and this is a story that Israel was meant to repeat over and over and over again. It was the central theme of their identity as God's people. N- not, not that, hey, God chose us and we serve Yahweh, it's that God saved us, and we should've died under His hand, but He redeemed us. He bought us. He paid a price. This price was a lamb. That's a picture of this central, uh, identity we have as the people of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We're bought.
Seth: And that, and that wasn't just, uh, told propositionally.
David: Oh, sure.
Seth: Y- "I love you. I say, I saved you, therefore believe this, this, and this truth." It was like an enacted-Retelling, like an enacted drama of God's salvation. So it says, "It shall be a mark on your hands and the front-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... "let between your eyes." There's this, like, tactile-
David: You touch it and you see it
Seth: ... you touch it, you see it, you feel it, you f- the warm blood is on your hands.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You watch it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you are seeing the drama play out over and over again.
David: And then you ingest it.
Seth: And then you ingest it.
David: That's very, that's very real.
Seth: Very real, but it also goes, this ties back into the Feast of Unleavened Bread. So for a whole week, you're supposed to eat only unleavened bread, and when your son asks why, in 13 verse 8, you're supposed to tell him, "It's because of what the Lord did for me when I came out of Egypt, and that shall be again as a sign on your hand, as a memorial between your eyes, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth."
David: Mm.
Seth: There's this whole sense that, like, God is orchestrating human history, and even our own practices and liturgies, maybe, that retell of their salvation and retell of their rescue. And you're supposed to, like, put it in your mouth, tactile, experience this, aesthetically engage with it, not just mentally assent to it.
David: Right. So this meal is meant to remind us of something that God has done, and, uh, it's, it's this reminder that God has acted, right?
Seth: Right.
David: Okay. And we ingest it. What-
Seth: And this is a really clear tie-in to Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because this is the foundation of communion. [instrumental music]
David: All right. So we, we just saw this feast that takes place, um, that's supposed to remind us of God and His saving activity, and then Seth, you, you were like, obviously, uh, this is a, one of the clearest l- connections we have, Bi- biblically, theologically speaking, from Old Testament to New Testament, is how Jesus kind of reframed the Passover meal.
Seth: Around himself.
David: Around himself.
Seth: Right. So when several, I don't know how, quite how long, several thousand years-
David: Thousands of years later
Seth: ... when Jesus is celebrating this meal with His disciples in the upper room, He takes the unleavened bread and s- and takes the wine that they're drinking and reinterprets it, not about a salvation that happened, as a remembrance of the salvation that happened thousands of years ago, but as what He is doing right there in their midst. So He says in verse 19, "He takes the bread, which He had given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.'"
David: Yeah.
Seth: So-
David: And what's interesting is I had always thought about this, um, as Jesus pointing forward to what He was about to do. He was like, "I'm going to the cross. I'm gonna go give my life up for you. This is my body that's gonna be broken for you. When you eat this, think about the cross."
Seth: Think about the cross.
David: Right? And, and they, and, but as Jews sitting at this Passover meal, they're thinking backwards.
Seth: They're thinking backwards. They have in their minds when they're eating on the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and their sons are coming up to them asking like, "Why do we do this?"
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they, they tell their sons, "It's because God delivered us out of Egypt, and we eat it in our mouth, and put it in our hand to remember these facts."
David: Yep.
Seth: And Jesus says, "Actually-"
David: "That was me."
Seth: "... that was me saving you."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "That was me saving you on that day."
David: Oh, my goodness. God's salvation plan has never changed. He's always been saving His people through the Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, who became known as Jesus in the incarnation. It's always the plan.
Seth: And He makes it even more explicit because, "And likewise, the cup, after you've eaten it," said, "This is the cup that is poured out for you, is the new covenant in my blood." So what's this new covenant? It's the covenant that God ratified right here at Passover.
David: Mm.
Seth: I will pass over death by the shedding of blood.
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: And Jesus says, "That is me. I was the lamb in Exodus."
David: Right, and this is, and now there's, here's a new one.
Seth: And here's a new one.
David: This is a new covenant, and it's, it's not lamb's blood, it's the blood of the Son of God.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right, which is gonna accomplish far more than just one time, um, in Egypt that we'll, we'll look back on and say, "Oh, that was really great for our ancestors." [laughs] It's like, this blood is new, and it's for you. Here's the cup. Like, put it in your hands. This is my blood for you. And so it's, i- is it fair to say that Jesus is looking in both directions?
Seth: Yes.
David: He's looking back to Exodus and ahead to His own crucifixion.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, we see that played out all the time-
David: That's true
Seth: ... in the gospels.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think it's happening here, too. Jesus, when God looks on Jesus, He will pass over us.
David: Right. And the reason He passes over us is because of this new firstborn Son, this new firstborn, who is Jesus. So let's talk about the firstborn real quick, because that word firstborn is all over the place here in Exodus. And, um-
Seth: It's actually the central point from the beginning of the Exodus story.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: First thing was the firstborn sons are being thrown into the river-
David: Yep
Seth: ... they're being killed.
David: That's right.
Seth: So this is central, one of the central themes throughout the story.
David: Is, yeah, this idea of the firstborn son. And so why is the firstborn son so significant in this culture? Well, we've looked at that it's the promise that this, this family line will not stop. It will continue, right? So it's the firstborn, which means the family will continue. The progeny can, can go on. Uh, we can continue to have an inheritance. We can, uh, propagate our, or, you know, continue to pass down our property, everything like that. Um, but also, I think what's helpful is if you look at, at the firstborn as a parallel, um, to the first fruits of the harvest that are sacrificed to God, that we, we can talk about later, is, I think it's a helpful picture, because when I talk about, when I think about family and sons and daughters, it confuses me a bit because I'm not in that culture. So for me, the harvest made more sense. So it's like whenever you reap a harvest, you take the first fruits of it, the first part of it that is able to be harvest, you bring that to God, and it's the promise that-The rest of your field will also be harvested because if this one little part of the crop came up, it's a, it's kind of a precursor and a promise and a guarantee that the rest will come also.
Seth: The rest will be harvested, yeah.
David: That's right. And so whenever, uh, you have a firstborn son that opens the womb, you're, you, you see that, oh, me and my wife are fertile. We can create children. More will come. And, like, so I'm, I'm not only consecrating this one son as an individual, but all my children, like, and the entire family that will come after him. So in, in, in, in the same way-
Seth: That's helpful
David: ... in the same way that the first part of the harvest that's given to God represents that the rest of the harvest will come, and the rest of the harvest belongs to God, in the same way, when the firstborn son is consecrated and redeemed, it says more children and family will come, and just as this son belongs to God, my whole family belongs to God.
Seth: And Jesus is called a firstborn too, right?
David: Yes, but there's steps in between.
Seth: Oh, gotcha. Yeah.
David: Yeah, there's a lot of firstborn stuff that takes place. So you have the firstborn son, which is the representative head of the nuclear family, uh, in Israel, but then you also have the Levites. Later we'll find out this priestly family is the firstborn kind of tribe that stands in for all of Israel.
Seth: Okay.
David: And you see that in Numbers 3:14 and 31. And then you have Israel is the firstborn of all the nations, Exodus 4:2, and so Israel stands in for all nations as well.
Seth: So the firstborn son is the promise that is the guarantee that God's promises will extend to the family.
David: Right.
Seth: The firstborn to the Levites is that God's promises will extend to the entire people of Israel.
David: Right.
Seth: And the fact that Israel itself is the firstborn is the guarantee that God's promises will extend to the entire world.
David: Which was the promise given to Abraham, which was that you'll be a blessing to all nations. So because Israel is the firstborn of God, that is a promise that what God does to Israel, He will eventually do for the entire world, and that's what He accomplished in Jesus, who is the firstborn Son of God, right? He is God's only begotten Son, who, and, and because He came and whatever God blesses Him with, this is the idea of imputed righteousness, that we get what Jesus got, [laughs] right? So He's the firstborn son, so-
Seth: I think Colossians calls Him the firstborn of all creation.
David: Of all creation, yeah.
Seth: So it's not just that they're a particular people group, or it's the God of all creation-
David: Right
Seth: ... is promising to guarantee, is guaranteeing His promises for all of creation.
David: Right, not just, uh, not even just humans. [laughs] He, He, like, whenever He comes in Revelation, it's "Behold, I'm making everything new," is that He, He fixes the fall. He fixes the created order. Like, He fixes disease, not just sin. He gets rid of cancer. Like, He's the firstborn of all creation, so when God blesses this firstborn Son, Jesus, He can then bless all nations as, as His representative head, as the representative head of all creation. And then He's also called the firstborn from the dead, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And so this firstborn from the dead is Jesus. He was raised by the power of God, reigning over defeat, uh, reigning, uh, over sin and death, and therefore, because Jesus was raised, Paul says, in the same way, we too will be raised. Because just as the har- the first fruits of a harvest gave proof that the rest of the harvest would come, we know that just, that just as Jesus was raised, we too will be raised.
Seth: So when Jesus says He's the firstborn from the dead, are we supposed to think of death like a womb?
David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, no one's born from death, but in this kind of language, Jesus has shown us that the tomb can be like a womb because it's, it's, He, He went in as a mortal body, and He w- came out of this tomb womb as a, as a new glorified resurrected body. You know, so like Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, "What is sown in immortality," or, "Immortality is raised in immortality." So it's this idea, he also talks about, like, a seed must fall to the ground and be crushed and die in order to be raised up into a giant stalk of wheat or something like that.
Seth: So we too, when we die, we have this guarantee-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that the promises of God are not done yet, even in death.
David: Even in death.
Seth: Because He's the firstborn from the dead.
David: That's right.
Seth: And the guarantee is that we will be raised in life like Him.
David: Yes. [upbeat music] All right, and as we wrap up, I wanna, I wanna talk about one major theme that we haven't quite touched on yet, or at least, um, unpacked, and that is when God says that He will look on the blood and pass over the house. He'll look on the blood of the lamb, and He'll pass over the house. Um, I mean, there's a lot going on here. Let, let's go ahead and tie it into Jesus, and then maybe we can unpack a bit of why, why does God have to look at blood in order to pass over, 'cause I do wanna answer that question. Um, but let's, let's first tie it into Jesus. So I'll start. Uh, y- y- like right at the beginning of G- John's gospel, John 1, um, 29, he says, uh, John sees Jesus, and he says, "Behold, look, here He is, the Lamb of God," who does what? "Takes away the sins of the world."
Seth: Yeah, Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 says, "For Christ, our Passover lamb, [laughs] has been sacrificed." Super explicit.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then in 1 Peter, he borrows the language from Exodus, 1st, uh, 1 Peter 1:19, Jesus is called the Lamb without blemish or defect.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So he's-
David: Which was the, the re- the requirement for what kind of lamb they had too, right?
Seth: Jesus is the new Passover lamb by consensus-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the New Testament.
David: Amazing. And so why is it sig- I think that's a, a good place to start then. Why is it significant that they needed a bl- a spotless lamb, and then that Jesus is the spotless lamb? Like, why is that significant? Um, I think it's because I, I, I automatically think of Hebrews, which has a lot of sacrificial language in it, and it talks about how, um, the priests always had to make atonement for their own sins before they could make atonement for the sins of the people. Well, Jesus, being the Lamb without spot or blemish, had no sin in Himself, right? But Scripture tells us that He who had no sin was made to be sin, right? And so y- you kinda have to look forward to some of-The, the end of the Torah, to, and the end of the law to talk about how the sin is, of the people is placed on these lambs, and these rams, and all these, all this stuff, and then it's taken care of. That Jesus is this perfect, spotless lamb who's able to take our blemishes onto himself.
Seth: Yeah, and when He does so, He provides a way of escape. He provides a way through God's judgment.
David: Right.
Seth: He provides a way of rescue and redemption.
David: Yep. Yeah, and I think this is what we have to talk about then. We have to talk about escape from what? Like, right? And, and like we talked about earlier with the, the destroyer, um, we can't separate, um, this, what we're being saved from, from God. Like, we're, we're being saved be- from God's judgment, right?
Seth: In, in one sense, we're being saved, the Israelites are being saved from Egypt-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and the oppression of Pharaoh, but at the same time, what we're, what are we told? That, that God is hardening Pharaoh's heart, and that the judgments are part of His plan-
David: Right
Seth: ... and h- and they are, in fact, His judgments. So it's not just that we're being saved from oppressive forces. We're being saved from God's judgment against those evil forces, which actually includes us.
David: Right. We're, we're a part of those evil forces.
Seth: We are Pharaoh. We identify with the oppressor more-
David: Yep
Seth: ... more frequently than anything else. Like, that's who Scripture sees us as.
David: Yeah. And so, so God, God is this, God shows Himself in, in Exodus as this just God who remembers the promises He's made to His people, and in order to make good on them, He punishes a wicked kingdom a- and exacts, uh, justice on them. And, and in the same time this justice falls, we see that if it's all g- if, if the justice is gonna fall on this land, it's gonna have to fall on everybody. Like, used to, there used to be this distinction where flies would go on Egypt, but not on Israel. But now, this destroyer is coming through all the land, and he's gonna kill every firstborn son unless there's blood.
Seth: Unless there's a substitute.
David: Unless there's a substitute. And so Jesus is the substitute. Jesus is the Passover lamb. Jesus is the one who is the judge. He is the destroyer. He is the one who, in Revelation, will come and judge the world. Like, we, we often see Jesus as the peaceable one, the one who, you know, never does anything mean [laughs]. You know? Like, it's like, "Oh, the God of the Old Testament was mean, but Jesus is the nice guy." It's like, no, Jesus is the one who comes and exacts ultimate judgment on the world, and so the destroyer comes as the destroyed, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: The one by whom God punished Egypt is the one who was punished for God's chosen people.
Seth: He will be, He will come under His own destruction.
David: Own death, yes.
Seth: His own death-
David: Right
Seth: ... so that others might go free.
David: Right. As Romans 3 says, He's the just and the justifier. He's the destroyer and the destroyed. Like, I, I, I think we, we can't get, we can't get over that here in this story. We have to see that parallel, that Jesus is the one who, being God Himself, should have brought punishment and condemnation to the whole world, and He would've been just and good to do so. But instead, He took that punishment on Himself so that anyone who would believe in Him, that He is the Passover lamb, might have, might be passed over.
Seth: Yeah. And th- think about, okay, let's just think about Jesus as a firstborn in this context as well.
David: Okay.
Seth: He is ... So there's a sense of loss there, right? Like, the father loses his son for a moment, the firstborn son.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And there's a sense that he's actually identifying with the cry of the Egyptians as well. The firstborn son was lost.
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: And yet, and so not only is He redeeming Israel, His chosen people, He's making a way for escape for those who would come under His judgment, who would come under the loss of their own firstborns.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you lose it, like, God doesn't see the ... I, I think a lot of time when we talk about God's wrath, it's easy to see, man, God hates sin and evil, and then that means, oh, He hates you.
David: Mm.
Seth: He hates the Egyptians. He hates individuals.
David: Right.
Seth: But I think what we see in the fact that God gives up His own firstborn Son is that He actually deeply loves even the Egyptians, and the sons that they lost can be redeemed in Christ, the firstborn.
David: Oh, wow. Yeah, absolutely. God does hate sin. I, I mean, it is that, it is that old adage, like, like, hate the sin, love the sinner thing, which kind of sounds so stupid [laughs] sometimes. But God, uh, represents that really well. Um, and He doesn't just represent it, He does that. Like, He, He's not, uh, what is it, what is Jeremiah? I think it's Jeremiah that says that He does not rejoice over the death of the wicked. Like, whenever a, whenever a, whenever someone wicked dies under God's judgment, God's not like, "Yes, I got him."
Seth: Right.
David: Like-
Seth: He's not Westboro Baptist Church.
David: Right. That's right. He's not ex- He, He's not excited that someone perished in their wickedness. He is glorified in it, and He's shown to be good and just, and He gets glory from it. But, um, it doesn't mean that God is just, like, spiking a touchdown ball whenever He went through-
Seth: No
David: ... killing the Egyptians' firstborn sons.
Seth: Because He recognizes it comes at a cost to Him-
David: That's right
Seth: ... not just emotionally as the creator of the world, but as, like, "I will redeem the Egyptians by the loss of my own firstborn son."
David: That's right, and if God is eternal outside of time, He knows firsthand the, the loss of Jesus, and Jesus knows the loss of His own life, and His, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" All this is rattling around in God's eternal mind as He's seeing the firstborn Israelites die in the Nile River, as He exacts judgment on the people of, of Egypt. Like, God is not unsympathetic. He's not dispassionate. He knows what we're going through, and yet He takes His justice seriously, and He takes grace seriously, so seriously that He takes the punishment that we deserve, which is the death of the firstborn.
Seth: I don't remember which theologian says it, but he says, like, "On the cross, justice and mercy kiss."
David: Yeah.
Seth: Was it John Stott? I don't remember.
David: I don't remember either, but yeah, that's beautiful. Okay, here's how I wanna close out. Um, let's-I just want, I, I wanna see if I can get you to randomly muse on, on this one idea here. So we've talked about Jesus being our Passover lamb, this, it, which is just, uh, sitting here almost, like, in this stale academic way, talking about it, um, we can even seem dispassionate, even though it's the thing that you and I are most passionate about. Um, I, I wanna, I wanna talk about, like, what, how, how should, how should our listeners go to their churches the next time they take the Lord's Supper, and, like, how should this conversation change the way that they interact with the bread and the wine? Like, sh- how should their affections be more stirred? Like, [laughs] what should be going through their mind? How does, I mean, how, how will this change the way you take communion next time, or will it at all, or?
Seth: I think the fact that the Lord comes physically is helpful for me-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... in this moment. Like, He, He doesn't come in propositional truth or platonic ideals or-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, ideas in the ether. He comes as a person who dies, who visits a grave, and then He im- reminds us of that, not simply through ideas or-
David: Right
Seth: ... thoughts or sentences, but in bread and wine. Like, we say we're eating the bl- body of the Lord, drinking His blood, and we're not literally doing that, but we're doing it in remembrance of what He's done. So I don't know. I think, I, I, I think in times past, I've, like, eaten the bread and just felt, like, the grit between, the grit of the bread as, like, m- like, Christ crushing my sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... or even myself crushing Christ.
David: Right.
Seth: Drinking His blood is, like, being both the Roman soldier piercing His side-
David: Yes
Seth: ... but also the one receiving mercy in that moment.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: I don't know if that's helpful.
David: No, yeah, I think it is. I think it's really helpful. I think if I was to turn the question on myself, um, I think right now I'm just being, like, completely blown away by the fact that God could have just saved Israel, right? He could have just said, "Okay, kill this lamb, spread its blood," like, 'cause, like, and He could have accomplished the same picture of Christ, right? But instead, He also said, "I want you to eat this thing." Like, [laughs] "I want you to eat this lamb." And, like, guys, I like, I like lamb. Like, I love meat, and a, an, an open-roasted lamb, like, a fire-roasted lamb is gonna be tasty. Like, that is good. And so it's crazy that God not only saves us, but gives us ways to savor that salvation, where He's like, "I want you to taste and see. Like, I want this to be something that you enjoy as you ingest." Like, I think it's amazing to me that He would give us all these opportunities to be, like, happy and fulfilled and satisfied. And I think of John 6, right? Like, I think of people, the 5,000 who ate all the multiplied bread and fish, and they followed Jesus, and they're like, "Give us this bread always. We want, we wanna be filled and satisfied." And then Jesus says, "It's Me. Like, eat Me and you'll be satisfied." And I love that we get that in propositional truth, that, like, I'm no longer under the wrath of God. Instead, I get God Himself. I get all the imputed righteousness of Christ. I get to dwell with Him and all this joy that comes from that. But I also, like, get to eat food, and it, it be good. And I get to know as I eat, not just the Passover meal, but as I just eat, I can know that, like, I'm eating in freedom. I'm eating outside of the wrath of God. I can taste and see that God's providing all things for my good and His glory. I don't know. I'm just kind of rambling on about-
Seth: No, it's good
David: ... how amazing it is-
Seth: It is
David: ... that God was like, "Eat this lamb, too."
Seth: And in the same moment that, as we're drinking the wine and crushing the bread, that is a- actually a symbol of our destruction of Christ-
David: Yes
Seth: ... it's also the same moment that we receive mercy.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which is a good argument for better-tasting bread and better wine at communion.
David: Come on, now.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I'm all for that. I'm all for that.
Seth: No more crackers, please.
David: No more crackers. Let's get some really good dough, some really good unleavened bread, and some really good wine, and just make this, uh, a feast worthy of savoring.
Seth: [laughs]
David: We can end on that note. I like that. Well, awesome, guys. Thanks for joining us, and, uh, we'll see you next week. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of Scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
