Intro: [instrumental music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right, well, welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Uh, Seth, how are you today, man?
Seth: I'm fine. How are you?
David: Are you ... Yeah, I'm good. I'm good.
Seth: Yeah, good.
David: I'm excited today. You know why?
Seth: Why?
David: My book came out today.
Seth: Your book did come out today.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Congratulations.
David: Thank you. Uh, I had-
Seth: It's called Rewire Your Heart.
David: It is called Rewire Your Heart. I had this wonderfully embarrassing moment where, um, this morning, I walked into Barnes & Noble, because I was told that they bought my book-
Seth: Right
David: ... and they have it on the shelves. And I walked in, like, uh, the doors didn't open right, right at 9:00. I was there at like 9:03-
Seth: Oh, man
David: ... and then it was like 9:05. I was, like, trying to get in and get out before I got back to work.
Seth: Right.
David: And so I looked like this giddy kid outki- outside the candy store.
Seth: To buy your own book. [laughs]
David: To, I just went to look at it, like, do like a Facebook Live like, "Hey, look. Oh my gosh."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And I walk in, and, like, my old book is on the shelf, When God Isn't There, but my new one is nowhere in sight.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And I'm like, "Aw."
Seth: Aw, all this work for nothing.
David: Yeah. [laughs] So it did not really feel like a launch day. [laughs]
Seth: But if you buy David's book, you should Facebook Live-
David: Ooh
Seth: ... for him.
David: I like that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Then I can, you can, I can live, um, surrogately through your experience-
Seth: Mm
David: ... of looking at my book.
Seth: Vicarious Facebook feed.
David: Vicarious Facebook feed. [laughs] Oh, man. So anyway, yeah, so if you want, uh, go check out Rewire Your Heart, uh, by Thomas Nelson. Uh, pr- published through Thomas Nelson by me. It's by me.
Seth: Oh, that's true.
David: By David Boden. That got kind of confusing. But anyway, pitch over. Here, here we go.
Seth: Read the book.
David: Read the book, and we're moving on. Um, so today-
Seth: Priestly garments
David: ... we are in, yeah, we're in Exodus 28 and 29, priestly garments, not to be confused with, uh, Mormon underwear.
Seth: Oh.
David: That's-
Seth: Most certainly not
David: ... most certainly not that.
Seth: Secret Mormon underwear.
David: That's right. Um-
Seth: It's, uh, yeah, yeah. Well, who is it? Um, the presidential cand- the, the, the guy.
David: Mitt Romney.
Seth: Mitt Romney.
David: Mitt Romney's presidential underwear. [laughs] I just wanna make sure I use his name in this.
Seth: Me too. [laughs]
David: I'm really glad that Mitt Romney made his way into our podcast. It makes me very happy. Uh, kind of, not really.
Seth: We're always really relevant here-
David: Super relevant
Seth: ... with 15-year-old political candidates.
David: [laughs] He's only 15? I thought he wa-
Seth: Well, I mean-
David: Yeah, I'm kidding. [laughs]
Seth: 2000 and what, four?
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: What, something like that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't know what election he ran in.
David: Yeah, anyway, well, moving on past that.
Seth: Have you seen a picture of secret underwear?
David: No, I don't know what it looks like.
Seth: We should affix it to this episode. [laughs]
David: Oh my gosh, maybe by the end of this.
Seth: Basically looks like a tank top and athletic shorts.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: For men and women.
David: For men and women, unisex ...
Seth: Jerseys.
David: Jerseys. [laughs]
Seth: Mormon jerseys.
David: I had no idea what to say after that.
Seth: Mormon jerseys. [laughs]
David: Oh my goodness. Okay, well, we are looking at Exodus 28 and 29. If you'll remember last week, we sat down with Kristen Hatten-
Seth: We did
David: ... uh, with her awesome book on Exodus, looking at finding Jesus in Exodus, um, for youth, and we looked at the construction of the tabernacle, and we skipped this section-
Seth: We did
David: ... 28 and 29, because there's, like, this little bracket. Um, and what's on the, what's on the left and the right side of the bracket?
Seth: Uh, the, uh, lampstand.
David: The lampstand.
Seth: On the front side.
David: Okay.
Seth: And on the back side. [laughs]
David: What's the back side? [laughs]
Seth: We-
David: This is bad.
Seth: It's like, it's like doo-doo. You can't-
David: Oh my goodness.
Seth: [laughs]
David: This is so terrible. And then on the other side of the bracket is?
Seth: The altar of incense.
David: The altar of incense. So you have the, um, the altar, or, sorry, the lampstand on one side, and then there's a break, and that's where we have this, um, this little diatribe here on the priestly garments, and then we go back into the t- the construction of the tabernacle with the altar of incense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it kind of seems like this little parenthetical here.
Seth: Yeah, it can either, it kind of, it's like God is giving instructions to His people about how to properly worship Him, and obviously, that includes not just the building-
David: Mm
Seth: ... not just the things inside the building, but also the people who are operating in it.
David: Working it, right.
Seth: But yeah, I think we can see that, like, obviously, people are different from things, and these two-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... chapters are about the people that work in, in the tabernacle.
David: Right. It does feel a little jarring-
Seth: Right
David: ... as you're reading it, 'cause yeah, you're going from things to people and then back to things.
Seth: But I think it is important that we have a lampstand beforehand-
David: Okay
Seth: ... and an altar of incense at the end. And I think, uh, Alec Motyer just says, like, "You should let that symbolism speak for itself." Um, and he says there's a sense in which, like, we're, when we, we obviously, we're gonna see Jesus in this passage, but we're also actually seeing what we are, as priests, are called to do as well-
David: Right
Seth: ... as a nation of priests are called to do.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what the priests are called to do is to shed abroad the light of the glory of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ to the entire world, the lampstand.
David: All right.
Seth: And even in the Book of Revelation, the church is described as lampstands-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... over and over and over again. What is the purpose of the nation of, what is the purpose of priests? To shine the glory of God broadly into the world, and we are to offer incense, like prayer.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Over and over again throughout scripture, prayer is described as incense.
David: As incense, right.
Seth: Uh, even our lives are described as a burning sacrifice before the Lord.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think what we're seeing here is, like, the altar of incense and the lampstand show us, like, the roles of the priest-
David: Mm
Seth: ... to shine and declare God's glory among the nations-
David: Right
Seth: ... but also to offer prayer on behalf of God's people.
David: Right, and both of those, and, like, a priest is an intercessor. It's a go-between between people and God, and both of those actions are priestly. So, uh, and they're, they go in different directions. So the light is bringing God's light to man, right?
Seth: Yep.
David: And then the incense is bringing man's supplications to God. Living our lives in such a way and, and having Jesus on our lips in such a way that we are light to the world, that we're saying like, "Here, know Jesus. Let me bring Him out of the tabernacle to you." But then on the flip side, we are praying for our neighbors, and we're, we're lifting up the needs of those around us to the throne, back to the tabernacle-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and saying like, "God, hear these prayers, like incense rising up to your throne."
Seth: And being a priest, like being a priesthood of believers or being a nation of priests can sound really kind of strange and foreign.
David: Oh, yeah, sure.
Seth: But what it really means is, like, you are God's representative in the world, communicating what God is like to the world, and bringing what other people are like back to God.
David: Right.
Seth: So like you're bringing God's glory and His goodness and His gospel and His message to the people around you.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: That's a priestly action.
David: Right.
Seth: But the other priestly action is taking the needs and concerns of the people around you and bringing them to the Lord. This is like the foundation for the one anothering commands and also all the prayer commands-
David: Oh, yeah. Right
Seth: ... where we are taking the concerns of others and bringing them to the Lord. That's what it means to be a priest in this world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's what it also meant back in, uh, the Bible times.
David: Right.
Seth: Exodus times. [laughs]
David: Back in the Bible times.
Seth: In the Bible times.
David: Yeah. That's awesome.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's really encouraging. I like starting off with that. That's really nice. Um, uh, and then-
Seth: And really, that's not-- What Aaron and his sons are doing are not so distinct from that. Like, they're s- doing that same action that we kind of take for granted that we're supposed to do in the world today.
David: Mm.
Seth: They're doing that in the Old Testament. They are, have that unique responsibility of communicating God's glory with people and taking the people's concern to God.
David: Mm.
Seth: But what's unique in the Old Testament is the structure and the symbolism and the sacrificial system built around it, and that's what we're kind of like talking about today.
David: Right.
Seth: Not so much the role. The role is actually kind of similar.
David: Mm.
Seth: But what's around it has changed.
David: Right. And, and the other major difference is, uh, other than Christ being the fulfillment of the tabernacle, is the priesthood of all believers.
Seth: Yes.
David: That it's not-
Seth: Or-
David: ... just Aaron and his immediate sons, um, being consecrated in succession as they die off to be the new high priest that's, you know, one and only.
Seth: Right.
David: It's we're all this. Like, we're all lights.
Seth: We're all sons of Aaron.
David: Yeah, we're all sons of Aaron.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, which is really cool. Um, but speaking of the structure and the rules and everything, let's dive in. Um, so we have a-- Basically, we, we've gone from describing all the curtains and the accoutrement that goes on in-
Seth: Oh, accoutrement.
David: Whoa.
Seth: Accoutrement.
David: Um, all in the, um, in the tabernacle. Now we're looking with that similar level of detail at the priest's outfit.
Seth: Yep.
David: What he wears.
Seth: What he wears.
David: And, um, and so let's l- l- What I wanna, what I want us to do before we start picking it apart, 'cause we're gonna see there's all these different things that make it up, and, um, there's a lot of detail and symbolism in those. But I wanna start at a higher level and go why are they dressed this way, 'cause we're gonna read that they're in, like, gold outfits covered in precious stones and-
Seth: Fine twined linen
David: ... fine twined linen and blue and purple and all this stuff. It's, it's extremely detailed, and the question is why. A- and we get our answer in, um, in verse two of chapter 28.
Seth: And verse 40.
David: And verse 40.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's repeated, you're right. And, and it says this: "And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother." And it gives us two reasons, "for glory and for beauty." For glory and for beauty. Um, the, and that, that's the ESV. The, the NIV, um, kind of takes the implications of glory and beauty and applies it to the translation. So I think it talks about dignity and honor.
Seth: Oh, okay.
David: But, but that's an implication of what these things are supposed to be doing for us. And so I feel like the ESV does a better job, because the word glory here-
Seth: It's-- Yeah
David: ... is just the standard word for glory in the Bible that even talks about God's glory. So, like, later, at the very end of Exodus in chapter 40, when God finally shows up and fills this tabernacle that they're building, it says that the glory of the Lord fills the, fill, filled the tabernacle.
Seth: And glory kind of means, like, the fullness of who God is and His perfections and goodness, right?
David: Yeah, it's like His-- Well, I mean, it's like a, so the Hebrew is kavod, right? And it means weight. Like, it's, it's something that's so weighty that it, it's important. The weight.
Seth: And so, like, the weight of God.
David: The weight, the weightiness of God. The Gaudy, the Gaudiness of God. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: Not G-A-U-D, like gaudy. Like, is that how you spell that? Like gaudy?
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah, but, you know, it is God's Godness that, [laughs] you know, it's, it's His personhood. Yeah, His fullness, His beauty, His presence in some sense. That's His glory. And, and so, but what's interesting about this mention of glory is that, um, we can't really get around it. This is not God's glory that it's talking about. This is, this is glory for the priests. So the, the, uh, the, the-
Seth: Mm
David: ... the, the garments that they're putting on them is not for God's glory necessarily, like as a matter of priority. It's actually, "I wanna put this glory on you." And so what I thought was really interesting, I, I, this question popped into my head as I was reading this. I was wondering, I was like, did, were the Israelites used to priests? Like, did they have priests in Egypt? Like, 'cause they had-
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I was like, yeah, of course they did. So I was like, so they're used to priests. I wonder what th- the priests they grew up around back in Egypt wore.
Seth: Mm.
David: Like, did they-
Seth: Right
David: ... were they decked out too, or is that unique to what God's doing here in Israel? And I looked it up, and it's unique. And so in, in the Egyptian priesthood, when they would go into all these different temples of the gods and everything, they wore complete white Egyptian cotton, like linen.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, just completely white. And the idea was that it was like they were showing their humanity and their baseness and, like, how the gods were, were the, the ones who got all the glory, all the gold was on them, and they, they came in just plain and, and white. And so what's amazing here is that God is giving His glory, like, right-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... everything that's in the tabernacle that's meant to show His gl- the gold and the scarlet, and we're gonna see pomegranates, like, on this, on this stuff. We're gonna see-
Seth: Right
David: ... all these different things that belong to the tabernacle, God's abode, God's glory. He's saying, "Here, let me dress you in this, priest." And God is giving us His glory.Which is so crazy.
Seth: Amazing. It helps also like fill out that phrase, like he's clothing us with robes of righteousness-
David: Yes
Seth: ... like later on. Like, 'cause like, oh, yeah, white robe, I'm, I'm pure. It's a clean-
David: Right
Seth: ... clean clothes. You know, clean clothes are always nice. That actually helps me understand a little bit more.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like God's actually giving us something of his weightiness and of his authority-
David: Right
Seth: ... and of his perfection. He's like placing that on us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's really-
David: Yeah, it's so cool to see like the, uh, the, I don't know, the material of God's house, of the tabernacle, jumping off the page, and like off the-
Seth: Off the walls [laughs]
David: ... off the walls. There we go, yeah. Jumping off the walls and landing on a person.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, all this glory, all these trappings, I'm putting on you now. So all the glory that I had, I'm now giving to you, which obviously we, we see in Jesus most clearly, that we are clothed with Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It is what the New Testament says, and I just think that's so amazing.
Seth: Taking off the old man and put on the new one.
David: Put on.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's right, and we are robed with Christ, and like we, we, we put him on. And so it's like his glory is given to us, which is so amazing. So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's one reason.
Seth: It, it goes back to a question I was asking myself as I was writing, as I was reading through this. Like, man, there's so much detail on what we're supposed to wear, these priests are supposed to wear.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it goes on for like, in my Bible, it's like three whole pages. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, it's just a lot of text describing this. It's like, why is ... And like we talked about that Jesus is the fulfillment, so like why was Jesus naked?
David: Oh, right.
Seth: Like, if he was the fulfillment of this, surely he would've been decked out in a similar manner, right?
David: Right, especially at this high priestly moment-
Seth: Right
David: ... when he was interceding for the sins of all mankind, going before the Father, surely he would be decked out in this.
Seth: Right, but I was, as, as I've been meditating on it, as you were speaking, like, oh, the only way we get God's glory is if Jesus unclothes himself.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He has to first take it off in order to clothe us with it. So for glory.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what about for beauty? Like, why are, why-
David: Right
Seth: ... is this created for beauty's sake? Or-
David: Yeah, like, yeah, I feel like, um, g- good old Protestant evangelicals are really comfortable with the glory part, but maybe not so much with the beauty part.
Seth: That was like part of the Protestant Reformation.
David: Exactly.
Seth: Like just take all the beautiful things out of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... out of the c- out of the, the, the churches because they were distractions-
David: Yep
Seth: ... from the centrality of Christ.
David: That's right. But here, not only in the tabernacle were there so many beautiful things that God is taking such great care to meticulously architect, here also in the robes we see the same thing, and then we're told it is for beauty, and we can't get around it. The, the, the, the, this word in Hebrew is used to describe e- elsewhere in the Old Testament things like fine jewels and like pretty couches [laughs] and things like that. Like, this is just-
Seth: What pretty couches are there in the Old Testament?
David: I, I, I would have to look it up again.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I feel like it was in Zechariah or something. I'd, I'd have to look it up. But, um, i- it's, uh, and, and also, um, like adornments, decorations, like this is an aesthetic word through and through. And so it's just like-
Seth: It's supposed to communicate artistic excellence.
David: Yeah, beauty.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: It's just beauty.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so like that's another thing that's like, uh, one of the things that when we make something beautiful, it gives it honor, but I feel like the NIV goes too far whenever it just gives us that implication as the translation, and it says, "For dignity and honor," instead of, "For glory and beauty."
Seth: Hmm.
David: It's like, yeah, one of the extrapolations of us getting God's glory is that we are given the dignity of God, and one of the extrapolations of getting God's beauty, of getting, like making things beautiful, is that they're given honor.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But like w- you miss it if you just get-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... one, one of the points of something being beautiful.
Seth: There's actually like a, a practical application, like make beautiful things.
David: Right, yes.
Seth: It's not just like ha- be honorable in your expec- in your, in your actions and your expectations of others and how you interact with people. It's like make beautiful-
David: Right
Seth: ... artifacts.
David: That's exactly right.
Seth: Make-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... beautiful spaces.
David: Yeah, and there's a couple things we need to see here. First, uh, first and foremost is why beauty? And like we have to ask that question of the whole tabernacle and of these, of these priestly garments in particular. It's because, I mean, this whole space is, is to do one thing. It's to show us God and give us a place to interact with him. And so if these garments are beautiful, and God is putting his glory on us, he's trying to communicate something very clear to us. I am beautiful. Like-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... God is beautiful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God is the most precious sight to behold. A- and like that is what these garments are telling us, that like when you go into a king's court, and you're arrayed in splendor, you are going, you are going like that, that way because the king is arrayed in splendor. It's like you go to a black tie gala because it's like-
Seth: Right
David: ... you know, everyone's dressed to the nines. And so that's like-
Seth: But also it's like even more personally, like you are beautiful-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as a human being. Like not only do you have a particular glory that you're dressed in, but you, by virtue of being made in God's image-
David: Right
Seth: ... are beautiful, and that comes to you not by virtue of you comparing yourself to others or by looking a certain way, but by being made in God's image, by being given to that, given that clothing that by God, by virtue of his design of, like of you. Does that make sense?
David: Yeah. I, it does. I mean, I think, I, I, I think a modern listener could listen to that and probably extrapolate that a little too far and talk about like, "Well, I'm, then I'm just, I just need to look at myself and just know that I'm okay."
Seth: No, if you-
David: "All by myself, self-actualization," or anything like that.
Seth: No, it's like the opposite.
David: Okay.
Seth: If you say like, "Well, I'm just gonna do me, and I'll be fine on my own."
David: Right.
Seth: Like my, my standard of beauty is my own.
David: Right.
Seth: No, then eventually that'll turn to self-righteousness.
David: Right.
Seth: Because you'll end up saying like, "People who look like me are a new standard of beauty that I set up for myself." This happens, I think, pretty often. A lot of the Dove commercials and a lot of the-
David: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no
Seth: ... like, like a lot
David: Be okay with yourself is by being okay with yourself-
Seth: Right
David: ... and accepting that you're beautiful the way that you are.
Seth: Right.
David: But almost always, it ends up by excluding another group of people that doesn't look like you.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: Like, that new standard of beauty that you've defined for yourself. The only way that we have a universal standard where everyone gets to be beautiful-
Seth: Mm
David: ... is if God gives it to us from the outside.
Seth: Right.
David: I think Dove tries to do the best job by being as, kind of, egalitarian in that sense-
Seth: Right
David: ... and trying to, like, even in their most recent campaigns, they've done a lot of this, but they still fail because they're trying to purchase beauty.
Seth: Right.
David: Buy our products-
Seth: Yep
David: ... then you can be part of this beautiful thing. No, God says, "I give you beauty for free-
Seth: Right
David: ... by being My creation."
Seth: Mm-hmm. That's good.
David: So, in the same way that we are bestowed with God's glory, and are therefore given, as the Anabaptist would say, dignity, uh, we're also clothed with God's beauty because we're made in His image, and therefore we're given honor.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, yeah. Okay, that's cool. I like that a lot. So, we are s- to see that God is beautiful, we are to see that we're made in His image, and therefore we have worth, and dignity, and beauty in ourselves as human beings. And then also, we're, we're to see, um, that God cares about us making beautiful things as humans, um, which is really important, that if something can just be for beauty, I think that's really important. Um, and, and I think we see, um, that in the very beginning of the Bible, whenever God puts Adam and Eve in the garden, right? And He says, like, to tend and work this place, which, side note, I think I might've said this last week, but I'll repeat it here, that, that tending and working in the garden that Adam and Eve were supposed to do, those same Hebrew words appear here, uh, when they describe the work of the priest in the tabernacle, that they are to tend and work. And so, one of my favorite things that, um, that, that Sam says, Sam Storms, our pastor here at Bridgeway, that he says about, um-
Seth: Oh, we should totally get him on the podcast.
David: We should totally get Sam Storms on the podcast.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But one of the things he says about this, this, uh, creation mandate or this, this cultural mandate, basically what that means is, like, God saying, "Tend the garden," that command, what, what, one of my favorite examples that Sam gives is, God created flowers, but He didn't create bouquets. And I just love that.
Seth: Oh, yeah. [laughs]
David: That, that He's given us the joy of arranging the flowers He made in such a way as to make them even more beautiful, that we get to play a role in taking the raw materials of cotton, and, uh, gems, and things like that, and turning them into these vestiges of glory and beauty.
Seth: And I think, too, like, not only for their own sake, but also for communicating the beauty and majesty of God.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, because all these things are taken, and they're used to communicate a certain truth as the priest walks through the temple.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, I was, I was just noticing, like, the onyx is used to communicate the names of the people of Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: The breastplate is made for judgment. The, uh, something else was made for, for guilt, the, I think it's the, the, it's the plate-
David: Right
Seth: ... on the head.
David: Yep. The big, gold plate.
Seth: It's made to communicate guilt and be- it being taken away.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, even, like, the fact of artistic skill is supposed to be used to communicate something-
David: About God
Seth: ... about God as well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's from Him, to Him, and through Him-
David: Through Him
Seth: ... are all things, but it's also okay to, like, celebrate the beauty of the thing itself.
David: Right. Yeah, we give beauty too much worth if we, uh, allow our, our affections to terminate solely on it. But we don't give beauty enough worth if we don't let it take us to God. Like, it's gotta do both. Like, we need to appreciate beauty for what it is, but also let us communicate, um, something about the one who made all things. You know, it's like the Psalmist talks about, like, seeing God in all creation. I think we can see Him in artistic beauty as well, in manmade things.
Seth: So, I think what you're saying is, it's not enough just to make a beautiful cake.
David: Right.
Seth: You have to eat it, too. [laughs]
David: Like, right, like, it's not-
Seth: Yes
David: ... like nobody makes a cake just to look good.
Seth: Right.
David: It, they make it to taste good.
Seth: Right.
David: And to communicate something about the skill of the baker as well.
Seth: That's right.
David: Like, so nobody just does that.
Seth: Right.
David: It's taste and see.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, that the Lord is good. Right. Which is what befuddles me so much about those cake competition shows.
Seth: Mm.
David: You know?
Seth: Mm.
David: 'Cause it's like, they, they like-
Seth: It's been a while since I've watched one
David: ... it's all, it's all about the presentation. But I'm like, is any, does it even taste good?
Seth: I hate marzipan.
David: Yeah, right?
Seth: So-
David: And they use so much of it
Seth: ... they use so much of it.
David: And fondant.
Seth: Oh, yeah.
David: Fondant's terrible, but it's like, it's all fondant.
Seth: It's all over.
David: Anyway, so don't let your theology of beauty be all fondant.
Seth: [laughs] And no icing.
David: And no icing.
Seth: We need the icing. [laughs]
David: That's it.
Seth: That's the best part of the cake. [instrumental music]
David: So, um, we just talked about beauty in and of itself, and, and I, I think I wanna circle back to that real quick, and just connect that to Christ. Because I think it's important for us to, to ask, like, um, why is it important that Christ be beautiful in and of Himself? Um, and I think that's a really important question. I was having a conversation with, um, a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine recently, and um, you know, they believe that God, um, will live in Heaven for eternity, uh, in, in Jesus, and we will live on a recreated Earth below, apart from Him. And I was telling him how that's bad news.
Seth: Right.
David: Uh, because, like, in the, in, in Revelation, we see that Heaven comes to Earth, and the, the, the tabernacle's gone, we dwell with God forever, and that's good news. And he said, "Why is it good news that we live with God?" And I said, "Because of who He is. He, He's the most beautiful thing that we would ever behold." Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere, you know? Like, uh, uh, what's Psalm 16 say? 16:11? Uh...
Seth: That's, um, um, um, that's what it says.
David: Pleasures forevermore?
Seth: Yeah. At your right hand.
David: At your right hand, yeah, at your right hand are pleasures forevermore. So, I told him this, and he goes, "So, what does God do that makes Him good to dwell with?" And I said, "It's not what He does, it's who He is."
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, that He is beautiful to behold. And so, I just think it's important that, like, the, the New Testament has this, this narrative, and even, like, Day of the Lord stuff in the Old Testament, that there is this time that's coming when God will come to us in splendor, and, um, like 1 John, uh, 3:2 says that when we see Him, we will become like Him, for we'll see Him as He is.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And it's like, there's something to behold in the beauty of Jesus.
Seth: It's not, like, an objective truth, but it's actually what's most true.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was talking with, uh, we have a, we have a Japanese student staying with us, and she was asking me about
David: Jesus. And she asked me in, in a never, a way I've never heard before. She said, "Why?"
Seth: Mm.
David: "Why do you believe in Jesus?"
Seth: Why do you believe in Jesus?
David: Not like, "How did you become a Christian?"
Seth: Right.
David: "When did you become a Christian? What is the gospel like? Why do you believe in Jesus?"
Seth: Yeah.
David: I think what I really wanted to answer was like, "Because He's beautiful."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because the story that He tells and the salvation that He accomplishes is breathtaking.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that's why.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, like I didn't say that because [laughs] that doesn't make a ton of sense-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... on its own, but like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that's what I really want to say, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... He makes the most sense. And even for like the Christ-centered reading of the Old Testament, like this story is beautiful in the way that it weaves together and finds its-
Seth: Right
David: ... like endpoint in Jesus.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, when we end those moments on Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and then like the music starts, we do that because those are beautiful moments that we want you to meditate on-
Seth: Yes
David: ... and like ponder-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... not just fly over.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, it's moments of beauty that we want you-
Seth: Right
David: ... to stop. And because, yeah, so, yeah, Jesus is beautiful. I, I, I hope that's something that as we do this podcast, you guys are seeing more and more. Uh, it's something we see more and more. So, uh, speaking of, uh, beauty and all these elements of it, uh, let's look real quickly at some of the pieces of these garments that the priests wear. So we talked, briefly flew over them. Let's look at them a little bit here.
Seth: So the two onyx stones with the-
David: So, well-
Seth: ... 12 names of Israel
David: ... well, yeah, they go on something, though.
Seth: Oh.
David: So there's, first there's the ephod-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... which was brought up, right? Which like people are so all over the map about what an ephod is, but basically, it's a linen piece, um, that is probably worn, like draped over your chest, and this one has shoulder pieces attached to it. And it seems like actually almost everything that is described is hooked into everything else. So the breastplate's connected to the ephod.
Seth: Wow. [laughs]
David: No, we're not. But, uh, [laughs] but, uh, so, so anyway, regardless of what it is, it's this like thing that's most likely draped over the chest or connected to shoulder pads or something like that. And, um, like you've said, there are these onyx stones, and there's two onyx stones that are put into the shoulder pieces of this ephod, and on them are the 12 names of the 12 tribes of Israel. And what's amazing about that, the p- the whole purpose of that is that every single person in Israel would be able to look at the garment that the priest wears, that he takes into the holy place where God is, and say, "That's my name."
Seth: Right.
David: Like, "I'm going into the presence of God. I'm part of Reuben."
Seth: Right.
David: "And I'm going into that, that place." And like so it's such an amazing idea that like the priest is taking the names of the people into the presence of God, and, and, and that's what Jesus does for us, right?
Seth: And, yeah, "And Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord-"
David: Yeah
Seth: ... on his two shoulders for a remembrance."
David: For, for a remembrance, right, to bring them to the Lord. And so Jesus does that for us. He takes our names upon Him. Like I love that hymn, like, M- My Name is Graven on His Hand, you know? Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I love that. Like, He takes our names to the throne, is in constant intercession for us. So we, we know that like before the throne of God above, uh, it, My name is written on Jesus's hand. Like, my name is on a stone that's on His shoulder that is always before the Lord. And like you can look at that through any number of ways, but it's like there's the book of life, you know? It's like my name's in that book, and it's before the Lord, and it's there. It's in, it's in black and white. It's in stone. I don't know. There's just a lot of joy and assurance and beauty that I get from thinking about my name on a stone in heaven that Jesus is holding before the Father.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I just think that's so cool.
Seth: I like the permanence of that, too.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think it's really hard for most Christians to feel like they're really Christian.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, how do I know that I'm saved?
David: Yeah.
Seth: 'Cause I think a lot of us ask Him like, "Well, how do I really know that Jesus saved me when I trust in Him that He died for my sins? I believe that He died for my sins, but how do I know He really saved me?" But I think that's kind of like a bachelor asking, "How do I know I'm really single?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, if you've actually trusted in Jesus, He's taken your name, engraved it on stone, engraved it on His hand, and you can't take that back.
David: Mm.
Seth: If you've believed that, the hard part's over. If you're already a bachelor, you're actually single.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If you've trusted in Jesus, His na- your name is already before the Father. It's engraven on the stones. It's written in the book of life, and He's always already praying for you.
David: Yeah, I love that. It's so, it's so cool, these little like eternal beautiful truths that we see in stones on a shoulder piece. That's something that I would just normally read over, but it's like when we actually stop and look at it, we see them beautiful. Another thing that we can see is, um, on the breast, the breastpiece of judgment, which is a really interesting idea, that's like, which let me stop real quick and just say, like the, you have the breastpi- the breastpiece of judgment, and then you have the turban that has that gold plate for guilt that you talked about earlier, and it says that it will bear the guilt. And then later in Leviticus, it talks about like if these priests, you know, don't wear their robes, there's nothing to bear their guilt. So another thing that these robes do is it, like the, the guilt that they have when they enter in is put on somehow these robes instead of the person. So we're told at the end, I think, of chapter 29, um, or, or something, it, it says, um, that if you, like do these things so that you do not die in the presence of God. So I just wanna also throw that out, that [laughs] another reason why these exist is not just for glory or just for beauty. They're also protection from the, the wrath of God against sin. And so like, I mean, when we talk about being clothed with Christ, like the only-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the only plea that we will have whenever we come to see God face to face will be like, you won't be looking at your past righteousness and go, "Oh," just like, "I, I'm clothed with my h- humanitarian efforts," or, "I'm clothed with the fact that I was a good person," or, "I'm clothed with the fact that I went to church for a while." It's like, no, no, the only thing that will cover you and keep you safe in the presence of God are the garments of Christ.
Seth: Yeah, and Paul picks this up in Ephesians 5.
David: Mm.
Seth: The breastplate, the breastplate of righteousness-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the helmet of salvation.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like I, I think he's probably borrowing a lot of that imagery-
David: Definitely
Seth: ... from here.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like what do we put on as Christians? Like how do we-Guard ourselves and prepare us for life in Christ-
David: Yep
Seth: ... now. It's by remembering that Christ is what these priestly garments were-
David: That's right
Seth: ... for these priests.
David: 100%, yep. That He is our helmet of salvation. He is our all of these things.
Seth: Our gospel shoes.
David: He's our gospel shoes.
Seth: That's my, that's my favorite one.
David: Gospel shoes.
Seth: Like, I gotta plod with the feet of the gospel. [laughs]
David: Gotta put on my gospel Nikes, yeah. Um, and so, but anyway, another beautiful thing I want to look at-
Seth: Your Yeezys.
David: Your Jeezys.
Seth: Gospel Yeezys.
David: I like that. I'm for that.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: For our younger audience. That's for our younger audience.
Seth: I mean, you can be old and have Yeezys.
David: You can, but, w- you know, if you do or not, statistically, I just, I'm very-
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, so, um, the other cool thing, 'cause we already talked about the 12 names on the two onyx stones. We see another 12 on the breastpiece of judgment. Uh, you have the tw- these 12 stones. You have four rows of three precious stones, and some of these stones each one-
Seth: Represents a tribe of Israel
David: ... a tribe of Israel. That's right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, and then, and we're told that explicitly. We don't have to extrapolate that. Um, but, uh, we, uh, but these are, these stones, some of these stones and these names are repeated in Revelation, which is so cool, that when we look at the heavenly tabernacle, so w- what we need to remember is that, um, when God is explaining to Moses what He wants the tabernacle and what He wants the priestly garments to look like, He says that these are a copy of things that are in Heaven, and He's relaying them to Moses. And so whenever we get to Revelation and we see, oh, there's a temple up in Heaven, there's a building, and it's similar to this one we're reading about in Exodus. We should be like, "Well, no duh."
Seth: Right. [laughs]
David: We were told that this is a copy of the one down below.
Seth: This is a copy.
David: And so, uh, when we go up there, we see, oh, these stones are up here, and they're the names of the tribes of Israel, and, like, oh my gosh, this is the tabernacle that we were talking about. But what's amazing is that, um, whenever the tabernacle comes down, when Heaven comes down to Earth at the very end of the Bible, whenever Heaven and Earth become one, uh, it says that the tabernacle is no more, and, like, all these precious gems and stones and names are all gone.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where'd it go? It's all Jesus. He's the one who replaces the tabernacle. And so the, the beauty of, of being with Jesus, you know, uh, the beauty of being with God, of having our names brought into God's presence that we just talked about, the consummation of that is not a continual, like, um, participation in this system where our names are written on Jesus' hand or on a stone, and it's taken to God. It's that God comes to us with such closeness and such glory that that representative, like, system is gone.
Seth: Where our names are carved into His body, like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... His whole life.
David: Yeah, and it's just Him. There's-
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He is fully human.
David: Right.
Seth: A full represent- representative for us, and fully God. Like, He Himself. What the priest is supposed to do, communicate, like, God to the people and the people's concerns to God.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, Jesus embodies that because He's fully God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and fully man. Like, and that happens in His nature, in His personhood all the time. Like, humanity is represented constantly-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the presence of God.
David: Yeah, and what's just amazing is, like, when He returns to Earth, like, we will get to live in that reality of right, what right now seems theological, it will be material and actual, and we'll see it, and it won't be just something cerebral that we think about or meditate on or trust in. It's something that we'll actually experience, that the beauty of the stones that we can think about that are in Heaven that have our names written on them will be, uh, such a physical reality that the stones, no matter how bright or brilliant they are, are outshone by the presence and beauty of Jesus. I think that's so cool.
Seth: It's exciting. [gentle music] So chapter 29, and the consecration of Aaron and all of his future sons.
David: Consecration.
Seth: Consecration.
David: What's that mean?
Seth: It means to be, like, set apart or to be given the authority to do a particular task.
David: Okay.
Seth: You're, you're set apart to do this thing. Like, we talk about ministers being ordained.
David: Ordained, yeah.
Seth: Like, that's the kind of language. Like, these people are set apart to do a particular set of tasks, particularly to be a light to the world and to be intercessors on the behalf of God's people, to be lamps and to be incense, like the altar incense.
David: I think we should make the ordination processes for, like, preachers nowadays to be this intense.
Seth: This is really intense.
David: It's super intense. [laughs]
Seth: I had a really hard time following how many sacrifices, on which day, and in which order, like, they were gonna have to do.
David: It's a lot.
Seth: But I think it's a bull and two rams for seven consecutive days-
David: Okay
Seth: ... leading up to their final consecration, and there was a ceremony when they would place their hands on the animal.
David: The animal.
Seth: And I guess it would be, the throat would be slit-
David: Right
Seth: ... as their hands are on the animal. The animal would die, and the blood would be thrown either on the altar or on themselves at a particular point in time, and then after all that's happens, it happens again.
David: Right.
Seth: For seven consecutive days.
David: Hmm.
Seth: And then they're ordained. And then at the very end of the chapter, we're told that they needed to continue every day, uh, to offer two lambs after that. So, like, every day, every generation of priest, after they had been sacrifi- after they had been consecrated-
David: Consecrated
Seth: ... through sacrifice, three animals, seven days in a row, would continually have to offer sacrifices every single day in order to do the priestly ministry.
David: And that's not for other people. That's for themselves, right?
Seth: That's for themselves. Like-
David: That's so they can just continue to be a priest.
Seth: Yeah. That, I think Hebrews says it pretty simply, sev- uh, Hebrews 7:27, they need to offer sacrifices day after day because they are sinners representing other sinners-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... ministering to sinners, but in front of a holy God.
David: Right.
Seth: And there's this constant need to, in that type of relationship, or communicating God to others and taking people's needs to God, to be pure-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and to be holy. Um-
David: They have no right in and of themselves to be that person
Seth: So they need to offer sacrifices day-
David: Goodness
Seth: ... after day after day-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the purification of sins, but Jesus Christ is the final sacrifice.
David: Right.
Seth: And so all the priests sit down.
David: Right.
Seth: Which I think-
David: And Jesus sat down.
Seth: Jesus sat down.
David: The work was done.
Seth: He sat down.
David: The work was done.
Seth: He sat down.
David: There, you know, one thing we don't see in the whole tabernacle as it's being described-
Seth: Is a chair
David: ... is a chair. Except for one. There's a mercy seat, but who sits on that one?God
Seth: God. [laughs]
David: And so there's no seats for the priests, man. They gotta keep working. But when Jesus sat down at the right hand of God, he was saying, "It is finished. No more sacrifice needed, because I don't have to sacrifice for my own sin because I was sinless."
Seth: So let, let's ask this, let's ask, like, kind of a practical-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... question out of this then.
David: Okay.
Seth: So we are a nation of priests-
David: Yep
Seth: ... consecrated and set apart for a particular task in this world, not by our ability to perform the sacrifices or provide 21, a 21-bull salute.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But, like-
David: That's branch.
Seth: I like that
David: 21 salute. All right.
Seth: 21 salute. But, like, um, by Jesus' works.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that's for a particular type of lifestyle. Our life is a living sacrifice unto the Lord-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... according to Romans. What does that really look like for the believer? What does, like, gospel-centered-
David: Mm
Seth: ... Jesus-centered consec- consecration for action look like?
David: Yeah. Well, I mean, let's ask the question of, like, what, y- you talked about, like, these people, these priests standing in between the people and God, and, um, and they were sacrificing in order to show, um, who God is, like, as holy, who they were as sinners, and how God is dealing with it through a sacrifice, which is mercy. Like, I'm not being judged as I should be. Instead, God is deferring my judgment to someone else even though I'm guilty. And so, um, what it looks like for them to live out loud as priests would be to publicly do their priestly duties, to show every single day, um, "Look, I'm sinful. Like, here's my sacrifice to prove it." Like, every single day, could you imagine being that confronted with your sin every day, that you had to, like, kill something for it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... every single day? And so, and then they give a testimony to the fact that, like, "God is forgiving me through this, and now I can go and intercede for you and bring light out from Him." And so I think the first thing that comes to mind when you ask that question is, how do we live out loud as priests, as a living sacrifice? I think we need to be pointing every day to the one who has made the final sacrifice, that we are not saved every day by our daily merits of sacrifice. That, like, "Man, what did I lay down on the altar today? And, uh, man, I just gotta really make sure I do that so today's sacrifice really stacks up."
Seth: I Tom Brady'd it.
David: I Tom Brady'd it. [laughs] Just, just, like, just stacking that stat sheet, is that what it is?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Tom Brady-ing it.
Seth: He's like, he's, like, known for being famously disciplined.
David: Oh, okay. I didn't know that.
Seth: And, like, in the most recent game, like, there was a comedian that tweeted out, like, "Man, Tom Brady's so mad, he went home in a rage, ate another almond." [laughs]
David: Extra almond.
Seth: Extra almond. [laughs]
David: Oh my goodness. Yeah, so we don't have to live like that. The way we live is by, by showing outwardly, like, the gospel of Jesus. Like, I think we point to His sacrifice every single day. He is the once-for-all sacrifice, not us.
Seth: And I think, too, even, like, the idea, so, like, how do we actually, so I think we need to speak the gospel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We need to actually tell other people, like, the, one of the fundamental actions of a consecrated person is to tell others about Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think here we also have, like, a nice rubric for it. Like, it begins with an acknowledgement of our own brokenness-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and need of repentance.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think a lot of times-
David: Priests are the first to sacrifice. Yeah
Seth: ... and so I think a lot of times Christians think that the best way that we can be lights to our world-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is by being perfect representatives.
David: That's really good.
Seth: But actually, I think it's, a vulnerability in front of non-believers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is probably one of the quickest ways in which we can preach the gospel to them.
David: Right.
Seth: We talk about in our church with even kids, like, repentance is shorthand for the gospel.
David: Mm.
Seth: It says that, like, we don't have what it takes to keep it all together, but Jesus does, and He promises to provide. So, like, when you communicate the gospel, don't just tell them the gospel story. Share how you have failed and how Christ is filling you up.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because that is actually communicating the grace of God through His sacrifice repeated in your life towards others. That's a priestly way to live-
David: Mm
Seth: ... your life.
David: That's really good. I think it's really helpful. So if we were to kind of push into that then, and I mean, should we just pull up Romans 12 and actually read it since we keep quoting it?
Seth: Sure.
David: Just that way we can actually [laughs] see what we're talking about here. So Romans 12: "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God," so I'm appealing to you by God's mercy, "to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." So I know a lot of times I hear this verse referenced in talking about not necessarily priestly duty at all, even though that's what's being described here. We kind of miss that as-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... 21st century readers. Um, I always hear this as, like, you know, what are you doing to lay down, are you gonna lay down everything for Christ? Are you gonna give it up, are you gonna put it all on the altar? And it just seems like there's always more someone's wanting from me. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it's like, I just, I gotta lay it all down, and, like, that seems to be, like, the constant altar call. I did air quotes. No one can see them on the radio.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Altar call is like, you know, give it all up. What are you holding back? Uh, like, put it all out there. I'm like, man, Jesus put it all out there for me, so that's a truth, right? And he's appealing to us by that mercy. So he's talking about it's the mercy of, of God that he's given us through Jesus and his final sacrifice. By that, he's appealing to us to then offer up our bodies as living sacrifices. So what does that mean? Is that, like, are we, like, like, uh, like Paul says elsewhere, are we carrying the death of Christ with us everywhere as, and, like, taking his incense aroma around?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, he talks about that. Is that in 2 Corinthians, I think? He's taking, you take that around, to some it smells like life, to some it smells like death, the Bible says. And it's like, does that, is that what it means to embody the life and death of Jesus and just speak the gospel, be evangelists? Or is there something more pra- all, we've said it is that.
Seth: Right.
David: So, but is it more than that? Is it also, like, some kind of practical, holy living? What does it mean to be a living sacrifice, is what, what I'm getting at here.
Seth: Yeah. I mean, I think-Well, one, we know two irreducible elements is sharing the gospel.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I think through vulnerability, I think we can say that-
David: Yep
Seth: ... like, as a real practical outworking of this, but also praying for others. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I think, too, like, it does demand, like, you are not your own. You were bought with a price.
David: Mm.
Seth: So, there is a sense that we, like, Paul talks about, like, buffeting his body, like, training it like an athlete, working like a farmer, uh, being diligent like a soldier. Like, these are like-
David: Right
Seth: ... powerful discipline metaphors. So, I think there is a degree of sacrifice demanded by Christ's sacrifice for us that goes beyond sharing the gospel and praying for other people. But it says, like, my whole life is oriented towards a particular goal-
David: Right
Seth: ... of seeing Jesus glorified.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And for pe- certain people, that will look differently. God will call us to sacrifice in different ways. To some people, He will call them to be missionaries in countries that are uncomfortable, and literally requires them to leave their homes. But for many of us, that looks like just leveraging our lives and our authority and our position and our power and our privilege, so that other peoples might gain more of Christ through what we a- already have.
David: Right, so acting out the gospel, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, like, divesting ourselves of our own glory and honor in order to serve others, which is being, is, like, imaging Jesus-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and what He did for us. I think that's really great. I think it's also just impossible to get out of this priestly language about, like, putting on display what God's done for us in Christ. And it's like, when I think-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... when I, now I'm just reading it over and over again as you're talking here, looking at living sacrifice, living sacrifice. What does that make me think of? It makes me think of Galatians 2:20, right? Where it's like, uh, uh, "I've been crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I keep on living."
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: "So now, not I, but Christ lives in me."
Seth: Right.
David: "And this life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." So, as we were walking around, we're like zombies. Like, [laughs] we're like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... we're dead and alive, and we're, we're living sacrifices.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so, but it's like, and we're made holy and acceptable to God, not by our own sacrifice, right? That would be paganism. That would be anti-gospel.
Seth: Right.
David: We know that can't be the case. So, what's the sacrifice that makes us holy and acceptable to God? It's Jesus' sacrifice that we carry around in us, the aroma of Christ.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is light and incense, right?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's the, it's, it's the menorah, and it's the table of incense.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's both, which is really cool, that we get to be light and smell to the world.
Seth: And it, and it redeemed sacrifice for us.
David: Mm.
Seth: We can actually give up all things. We can say, "Hey, I'm gonna give away 30% of my income," and it not feel like sacrifice.
David: Mm.
Seth: Because we've been given all of-
David: That's right
Seth: ... all of Christ already. Like, I think part of the, the legalism comes when you say, "Sacrifice looks this way for all people-
David: Right
Seth: ... in all times, in all places."
David: Yep.
Seth: But I think the Lord is being a little more nuanced than that. Like, He's saved individuals-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and He's calling all of us to sacrifice, not only to image, to image the sacrifice of God in our own lives by taking what is most precious and what is most unique and what is most, like, what we have, and sacrificing for the sake of others to know Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We do that in our marriages.
David: Yes.
Seth: We do that, like, in, like, and those are, like, relational ways.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, that's relational. Like, that's a relational laying down. But we also do it with our resources-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... whether that's money or time, um, or power or voice.
David: Right. Yeah, exactly.
Seth: Like, how are we leveraging this podcast-
David: Yep
Seth: ... so that others can experience the love of Christ? Not just by talking about Jesus, but by the guests that we choose-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and the way that y- your nonprofit is organized.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, how do we do that well and advance the gospel?
David: That's really good. I think that's really helpful. One last thing we should touch, uh, is, um, the, the point of all of this. I, I kinda wanna go to the very end of Exodus 29, uh, and you get this promise at the very end. It, it's just so beautiful. So, He says, "After you do all this stuff, all these consecrations, the 21 ram salute," which is my new favorite thing.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, [laughs] in verse, uh, 43, He says, "There I will meet with the people of Israel, and it shall be sanctified by my glory. I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. Aaron also and his sons I will consecrate to serve me as priests." And then here it is, "I will dwell among the people of Israel and will be their God. And they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and that I might dwell among them. I am the Lord their God." And so, like, the whole point of this, what's the point of the tabernacle and all these priestly garments and all this detail? What's the point? It's to live with God. Like, that is what it's all about. And what I love is that we see this tabernacle, we see these stones, we see all this detail up in heaven at the end of Revelation, coming down to us. And when it does that, when it transmutes into our world, the tabernacle's gone, the walls are gone, the curtains are gone, the stones are gone, and all we're left with is Jesus. And it's, we get to live with Him forever. He gets to be our God. We get to be His people. And all the beauty we see here described in Exodus and the tabernacle and the garments is fulfilled in seeing Jesus face to face.
Seth: Amen. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of Scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
