Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Okay. Well, welcome everybody to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We're really excited that you've joined us today because-
Seth: Because-
David: ... we get to talk about-
Seth: I-
David: ... my, like, favorite text in the whole Bible.
Seth: Yes.
David: And what, for you, Seth?
Seth: Well, no, I was just trying to, like, interject awkward things [laughs] in the middle of your mon-
David: Thank you
Seth: ... middle of your monologue.
David: My, my little introduction.
Seth: And I was, like, trying to think of something funny to say.
David: And what'd you come up with?
Seth: Nothing.
David: Nothing?
Seth: This was the end. [laughs]
David: This is the first.
Seth: This is the first. I d- I'm still kinda reeling from Andrew Wilson and how great-
David: Oh, my goodness
Seth: ... his mind is.
David: I know. The, uh, the, like, the anti-type of the Eucharist and the ground up dust-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... gold.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What-
Seth: Yeah, that, that
David: ... my- I'm still trying to figure that one out.
Seth: We, we did, like, mind explosions in the air-
David: Yeah, no one can see us-
Seth: ... with our hands
David: ... just, like, like, freaking out-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... in the studio as he's talking. It's, like, one problem with podcasts.
Seth: So if you haven't listened to that one, you should.
David: Go back-
Seth: Definitely do that
David: ... and listen to Andrew Wilson talking about the golden calf.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It was amazing. So the golden calf just happened.
Seth: And this is the aftermath.
David: And this is the aftermath. What... Like, let's ask this question, like, okay, God chose Israel, right? He, like, chose Abraham, Isaac and, and Jacob and Joseph and all these people, and they went into Egypt, and he promised that that would happen, and he brought them out through great acts of deliverance, brought them through the Red Sea, through the wilderness to Mount Sinai, showed up, gave them the law, and then they broke it while Moses is still on the mountain.
Seth: Yeah.
David: What does this God do when people mess up so royally? This is, here's what, this is what-
Seth: This is-
David: ... we're gonna find out.
Seth: This is, that's exactly what happened. This is kind of like the consequences.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That these two passages are the consequences of failing to be-
David: God's covenant partners
Seth: ... God, God's, like, a successful covenant partner.
David: Right.
Seth: And what's fascinating in the, in the Book of Exodus as well, like, this parallels almost exactly what happens before Exodus 20, or, uh, sorry, in Exodus 23 and 24. We have the same types of laws being given, the same angel of the Lord shows up-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... the sa- the tabernacle instructions happen in the same place. Like, this is a parallel. We've already seen this pattern of scripture happening right after the covenant was given before the golden calf, and now we're seeing the same thing happen again, but it's different.
David: So what does that, what does that mean for us then? Is that like, oh, it's-
Seth: It-
David: ... cyclical and it's like-
Seth: What it means is that-
David: ... patterns of sin, or what?
Seth: ... what you should see, if you go back and read Exodus 23 and 24, you'll notice these great promises of God living with his people, being with his people, the angel of the Lord being on the side of God's people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and promising these great things. Israel sins, and the angel of the Lord shows up again, the tabernacle of the tent of meeting is mentioned again, and Moses prays for God's glory, and you'll notice that God is further away from his people than-
David: Mm
Seth: ... he was beforehand. And there's, there's this phrase that we haven't talked about yet, but God visits the iniquity of the s-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the s- the people of the third and fourth generation.
David: Right. "I will visit the iniquities-"
Seth: Yeah.
David: Visit the iniquities.
Seth: But I will [laughs] but whatever. We, we'll read it in a second.
David: We'll read it. [laughs]
Seth: And then, uh, and then right after that it says, "But I will st- show steadfast love to thousands."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what you notice in this passage is it's, it's reversed-
David: It's reversed
Seth: ... and puts the grace and the mercy before-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... because people have just sinned.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think what we're seeing here is the consequences of sin is separation from God, and, um, but also a highlighting of God's mercy as well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So yeah.
David: Okay.
Seth: I think that's what's happening, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... thousand-foot level-
David: Okay
Seth: ... that's what's happening right now.
David: And so when we zoom in, you, you talk about God, like, being more distant.
Seth: Yes.
David: And that's kind of the first thing we see, right?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: And so, um, Moses and God are talking, uh, in the aftermath and, um, God says, "All right, it's time to leave Sinai."
Seth: You can see it even before there. You can see it even before that.
David: You can.
Seth: Yeah, if you go to verse 3 of chapter 33, "Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey, but I will not go up among you." If you notice, [laughs] like, it's right there, like... Oh, was it you, were you gonna point there? [laughs]
David: That's exactly where I was reading.
Seth: I thought you were, I thought you were jumping up to Moses-
David: Nope
Seth: ... talking to God in the tent.
David: Nope. The, the-
Seth: Oh, I'm so sorry
David: ... uh, yeah, it was just right at the... Yeah, so I was like, yeah, I was saying, like, "It's time to leave Sinai. It's time to get out of here, and, um, you're gonna, you're gonna go into this land that I promised to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and I'm gonna drive out the inhabitants' land, the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Hittites, and, um, and you're gonna go into this land flowing with milk and honey." And then he says, like you've just pointed out, "But I will not go up among you." A- and the reason is, "Or I'm gonna consume you on the way. You're gonna die if I come up among you." And, like, we haven't run into this, like, ever. Like, this is a, this is a new idea here, uh, really since, like, the Garden of Eden. Like, they had to be-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... they had to leave the presence of God, or else they would have died. And so this is a, this is a really intense kind of separation because up to now, there's been this really intimate relationship between Yahweh and the people of Israel, especially Moses, and, um, he's been guiding them through the wilderness and all this stuff, and now he's like, "I'm not gonna go up among you."
Seth: Yeah. Beforehand, God's, the angel of the Lord being with them in conquest was a sign that God was with them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But now it's a reminder that God is not with them.
David: Right. And, and the other thing we, we need to realize is that when he says, "I'm not gonna go up among you," is that what he's talking about here is, um, you, you, you, we, we've just talked about the tabernacle and everything, and he's like, "I'm not gonna go in that place. I'm not gonna live there."
Seth: Yep.
David: And, um, how, how disappointing [laughs] would that be?
Seth: So disappointing.
David: Yeah. And, like, we, we, we learn that when the people hear this, they take off their ornaments and-
Seth: I was, I was super confused by that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What ornaments were they talking about?
David: Well, I, I think what they're talking about here is if, if you read it just, like, straight through, it probably sounds like either one of two things are happening here. One, which is the one I p-I think is happening is that people were getting ready for the dedication that, and the building of the tabernacle. And so, like, maybe even the people is he's talking about the priests wearing all their priestly garments and everything. And, um, they were like, and God's like, "Take those off because-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's not gonna matter anymore 'cause I'm not gonna-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... come in the tabernacle, so just take it off."
Seth: So all the ornaments or the priestly things.
David: The priestly things, the, the-
Seth: The ephod and everything-
David: Right, mm-hmm
Seth: ... that they just built, sure.
David: Just, yeah, just take the, take that off. Uh, the other, um, option is that they had put on a bunch of, like, ornaments for cultic worship after worshiping the golden calf-
Seth: Oh. Oh
David: ... that there are other things that they made with gold, along with the golden calf.
Seth: That would make sense that they stole it all from the Egyptians.
David: That's right. Yep.
Seth: And so they, like, were worshiping the Egyptian, an Egyptian cow god, wearing all the Egyptian-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... jewelry that went-
David: Right
Seth: ... along with it.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so they never... Oh, that's interesting.
David: Yeah. So it's like either way, they've, they're being shamed and humiliated. And so the people strip off all their ornaments, and they mourn because God's not gonna come and fill the tabernacle. He's not gonna be with them, which is really important for us to not just read over, um, because this shows us that even, even Israel here, they know how important the presence of God is to being His people. Like, it's the whole-
Seth: And this seems like real repentance, like, too. Like, actual-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, the signs of, like-
David: Right
Seth: ... a change in the people of Israel-
David: Right, I'm gonna strip-
Seth: ... in response to judgment
David: ... strip everything off. I'm gonna-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... I'm gonna mourn. Uh, d- yeah, we're given no, no hint here in the text that this is false or duplicitous at all.
Seth: Yeah, and then in the next passage is the, it describes the tent of meeting. It's not the same thing as the tabernacle.
David: Tabernacle, right.
Seth: But it is a parallel to the tabernacle.
David: Yes.
Seth: The tabernacle-
David: Like a precursor.
Seth: It is, yeah.
David: Yep.
Seth: The tabernacle was supposed to be in the center of the camp, and then Israel would be around, out, on the outside of it.
David: Right.
Seth: But this one is on the outside-
David: Outside
Seth: ... of the camp, and everybody can only watch-
David: Right
Seth: ... as Moses goes in.
David: So yeah, Moses would go in-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and he would, like, come into the, to the opening. And whenever he would go into the opening of this tent of meeting and God's cloud would descend on it, the people would, like, worship in the village, like, in this, like, little encampment. They would watch and worship, which is pretty cool. A- and so now, Moses, like, they're, the people are hearing that Moses is gonna come to the tent, and nothing's gonna happen. And so instead of worshiping, the people mourn, and they're-
Seth: Verse 11
David: ... so sad.
Seth: "Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face-
David: Mm
Seth: ... as a man speaks to a friend."
David: Right. And the one thing we need to see here that a lot of, uh, biblical scholars talk about here is face to face is a, a colloquialism. Like, um, it means like a, like, yeah, well, I mean, it explains it here, as, as someone speaks to his friend. Like, he, like Moses would actually hear the voice of God and, like, you know, like, like you would-
Seth: Right
David: ... talk to a person. This doesn't, this isn't going to, this isn't saying, like what we're about to find out later is that Moses is about to hear that, "You cannot see my face because man cannot see my face and live." Um, and so this is not, uh, a lot of people say that this is not saying that Moses used to see God's face in all its glory, but now he can't.
Seth: Right.
David: This is, uh, this is a way of talking about how people converse face to face.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
David: What we're gonna see later when Moses is barred from seeing God's face has always been in effect, that mankind can't-
Seth: Right
David: ... see the full glory of God.
Seth: So what you're saying is, like, this isn't saying Moses used to see God's face, and then on the mountain, God says, "No, you can't."
David: Right.
Seth: It's like Moses was able to talk to-
David: Talk to God
Seth: ... God like a friend.
David: Right.
Seth: Like we say, like, yeah, we are like, we're close.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's, that's-
David: Yep
Seth: ... it's like a colloquialism.
David: Right.
Seth: It's just a saying.
David: Yep.
Seth: It's not an actual physical thing-
David: Right
Seth: ... that he was able to see.
David: So yeah, we don't wanna-
Seth: That makes sense
David: ... we don't wanna confuse those two things.
Seth: And so, so far, before we get into Moses' prayer for the people of Israel-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what we're seeing is what the angel of the Lord and the tabernacle previously used to be signs that God's presence was coming closer.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They are now signs that God's presence is l- like, further from them.
David: Right. What used to be a harbinger for presence is now, like, a reminder of absence.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so Moses' prayer is don't-
David: Don't- [laughs]
Seth: ... leave us.
David: Yeah, right.
Seth: Don't, please don't do what we see happening right now.
David: Right. Yeah, so Moses goes to this tent of meeting, and he prays to God. And he says, "Don't you dare [laughs] like send us out, out from here and not go with us." Because, uh, and, and he doesn't, what's interesting is he doesn't talk about the warfare, which I've always thought is really interesting. He doesn't go, "If you don't go up for us, uh, up with us, we're not gonna win all these battles against the Canaanites and the Perizzites and everything." He's like, "No one's gonna know that we're your people and that we're distinct. And, like, people aren't gonna know that, like, they're not gonna know you."
Seth: Right.
David: Which is really interesting.
Seth: They won't know, you said that we have favor in your sight.
David: Right. So, but no one's gonna know that if we-
Seth: No one's gonna know it.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: Exactly. And so, um, it's really interesting. A- a- and this is kind of like, um, Abraham's prayer for Sodom and Gomorrah back in Genesis, where he pleaded with God that, uh, to, to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if there were 10 innocent people in it, right? And he, and he says, like, "Far be it from you, God. Like, this would be to defame your character if you killed the innocent and the guilty together." Moses is saying here again, like, "God, far be it from you to promise that you are gonna bring this people into the land, and then bail. Like, that you're a God who keeps His promises, right?" And so one, one, one thing that we might wanna address here, Seth, is does Moses or Abraham or, like, what are the, what are up with these texts where, like, it seems like people's prayers are trying to change God's mind-
Seth: Oh, gosh
David: ... or, like, alter His will?
Seth: [laughs] Was not expecting that question here.
David: [laughs]
Seth: My favorite, somebody asked, I think, uh, Wayne Grudem this question.
David: Okay.
Seth: And he was like, "Uh, I really, I really don't know." [laughs]
David: Oh, no. So wait, so if we try to venture a answer here, we're, we're, we're-
Seth: I mean, I think-
David: ... treading where Wayne Grudem wouldn't tread
Seth: ... I think the obvious thing to say is that, like, even though God is in control of all things, He still desires and works through people's prayers and actions-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in this life.
David: Yep.
Seth: So God will not accomplish the salvation of His people or the revelation of His glory apart from the means that He said that He would do it.
David: Right, which is w- through prayer.
Seth: Which is through prayer. [upbeat music]
David: A couple things that are interesting here. One is, um, we could, we could also view, view a lot of these texts as literary devices for i- Moses is an intercessor, Abraham was a priest, an intercessor, like a, a precursor to a priest. So these are like literary mouthpieces for God fighting on behalf of his people. And so, and not that these prayers didn't historically happen, but that like-
Seth: But not that that question doesn't stand.
David: Right.
Seth: But in the text, this is like God saying, "I'm fighting for you through Moses."
David: Right, right. Let me show you, like, really how much this is, really how big of a deal this is for me to re- relent and to, to actually forgive. Uh, the other thing we need to see in both of these passages, i- in the one in Genesis and here in Exodus, is that what God promises still happens. He never changes his mind. So here in Exodus, uh, for instance, well like quickly, Sodom and Gomorrah, he said, "I'm gonna destroy it." Abraham pleaded. He destroyed it.
Seth: Right.
David: Because there weren't innocent people in there. Right, okay. So Lot was rescued-
Seth: And he saved-
David: Other than that, yeah.
Seth: Yeah, he saved the person that-
David: He saved the one-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the one dude.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Uh, and so anyway, um, but here he says, right, right at the beginning he says, "I will send the angel of the Lord ahead of you to drive out the, the, the, the, the inhabitants of the land." Um, and then he says, and then [laughs] Moses is like, uh, "God, please stay with us." And then he goes, "I will, and it'll be with the angel of the Lord," because the angel of the Lord is Yahweh. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so h- he never changes his mind. He, it's, it's, this is more like Moses like having to process what this means.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, um, uh, yeah, anyway, I think that's just, I didn't wanna like people to like trip up over this text. Like, so one, it might be a literary device. Two, God uses the means of prayer to accomplish his purposes, and three, God actually never changes his mind here in this text.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So let's not freak out about it too much.
Seth: And God answers the prayer verse-
David: And God does answer the prayer
Seth: ... verse 17.
David: And he answers an extra prayer too, which is really cool.
Seth: We'll get to the extra-
David: Well, I, yeah
Seth: ... bonus prayer in a sec.
David: The bonus prayer.
Seth: But verse 17, "The Lord said to Moses, 'This very thing that you have spoken-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I will do, for you have found favor in my sight and I know you by name.' And then Moses said, 'Please show me your glory.'"
David: Right, that's the extra prayer.
Seth: That's the extra prayer.
David: The bo- bonus prayer. So, so Moses had been pleading on behalf of the people at that point and saying like, "Don't, don't leave us. Don't, don't, don't, um, don't forsake us. Please take us into the land." And then he, he gets that prayer answered, and then he shifts his focus to something that seems a little bit more personal, because the way God answers it, um, he, he forbids anyone to even be around the mountain. And so Moses asks God, "Show me your glory."
Seth: Well, he does that in that prayer too. In verse, uh, 15, "And he said to him, 'If your presence will not go with me-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... do not bring us up from here,'" verse 15. And then verse 16, "If I have found, if I have found favor in your sight-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... I and your people." If, like so I think, I mean, like doesn't he kind of include himself? It's not like an extra, it's like he's praying for that same thing beforehand, right?
David: Yeah. Oh, definitely. I, but I think that, I think that this is like a God's guiding presence, taking them in, clearing the land, but this show me your glory prayer that he alone experiences-
Seth: Right
David: ... is, it seems to be different in kind. It seems to be-
Seth: I guess I kind of-
David: ... two parts, two-part prayer
Seth: ... I kind of was kinda, it's like I don't see like God, like Moses is asking God for his glo- the his glory to continue to go with his people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and for him to continue that same relationship he's had with him in the past.
David: Right.
Seth: And he's asking for God to show him his glory kind of in, like almost in a different context, like in, in the middle of s- like sin. Like he's like-
David: Mm
Seth: ... "Show me your, like I know you're about to leave, but don't.
David: Right.
Seth: Show me your glory.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Please. I know we've sinned, I know we've done wrong, but please don't leave." Like it's like I didn't nec- necessarily hear him asking for a new thing-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... which is some- sometimes kind of heard this passage preached like, "God, Moses was bold and said, 'Show me your glory,' and then God did it, and he never did that b- like before." It's like, no, I think that's, Moses is asking for a restoration of like-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... what he is fearful he might lose.
David: I would probably disagree with you.
Seth: Yeah. I, I-
David: Oh, yeah. I mean, think about just because like of how much God goes through to get him into this place, the description of God passing by and covering the cleft of the rock with his hand and showing him the backside, this is all extremely rare language. It's never again repeated in the Bible.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um-
Seth: We don't have evidence that happened-
David: No
Seth: ... the first time he was on Sinai.
David: No, no.
Seth: I agree.
David: And then it, this, and then accompanying it is the longest self-description of God by God in the Bible. He says his full name, if you will, to Moses, and then when the New Testament picks this up in 2 Corinthians 3 and 4, it's treated like a very distinct event. And so I don't think this is a reiteration or a restoration of something old. I think this is a, a, a con- a, a, a new thing, a revelation of something new, which makes grace abound all the more. That it's not like-
Seth: So why-
David: ... "Oh, God, take me back to what was first." This is like, "Even in the midst of sin, give me more," which is like that's the gospel.
Seth: So why here? Why would Moses make this request now?
David: Yeah. I mean, I think-
Seth: Because like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that's not the time I would make the request.
David: [laughs] Right.
Seth: It's like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like after we've done all the good stuff, I would be like we obey the commandments, the temple's built, everything, like the, the tabernacle, we built the, the ephod, Bezalel is all, he's done his stuff. Like, why now?
David: Yeah.
Seth: After corporate failure.
David: Right. I think, I think it's probably because he needed a sign, uh, that God was going to be faithful, that God was going to accompany them. If he was really going to pick up the tent pegs and head to Canaan, like he wanted to know that God was gonna be with him. And so accompanying this, this new call to leave Sinai, and like, he's like, "I promise the angel of the Lord's gonna be with you," I think Moses needed and wanted and craved this new presence of God, like to ratify what was happening. Um, which when we look at like the gospel, it, it's exactly what happens. Like, like whenever, whenever God makes these new crazy promises to us that he's gonna wash us clean and bring us into his presence, into a final and new Canaan, it's accompanied with his presence showing up-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and like in a new and crazy way in the incarnation of Jesus.
Seth: And what would, what would it say if God came after they, only after they obeyed?
David: Right.
Seth: Like the fact that God shows up-Immediately after the-
David: Yes
Seth: ... main sin of the book, the sin-
David: The sin of Exodus
Seth: ... the sin of Exodus, that's when the most personal revelation of God shows up.
David: Right.
Seth: That tells us something really remarkable about the God-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that we're worshiping.
David: That's exactly right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, it's exactly right. And it, and it tells us, and like-
Seth: And the kind of people that God responds to.
David: Right. Yeah.
Seth: Right.
David: Sin- sinners. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah, sinners.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, people who have failed their-
David: Right
Seth: ... responsibilities.
David: Yeah, it's really amazing, and like, and God tells us that. Like, so, so, um, basically, so God, God and Moses make this agreement. Like, they go into, like, this long detail about how this is gonna be set up. So Moses says, "Show me your glory," and then God says, "Okay, I will, but you can't see my face because you cannot see me and live." Um, and, and so he, he says, "Go up onto the mountain," and there's a little cleft there, which is, like, a rock with a tiny split in it. I like to think of it like a, like a door. You know, like, whenever you, you have a door shut, and the light's on in the bedroom, and you can kinda see, like, a little bit of light-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... through it. Like, it's kinda like that.
Seth: Right, right, right.
David: You know? And, and so, um, you- you'll do that, and, but with you, take two new tablets of stone, right? Uh, and, uh, just like you had before because if you [laughs] remember, Moses came off the mountain after hearing the, the, the law-
Seth: Smashed them
David: ... of God, and smashed the tablets.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, um, one thing I missed for a long time was the very first thing that Moses asks for in his intercession, or I guess it's not the first thing, but he says, "Now therefore," uh, in verse 13 of chapter 33, he says, "If I have found favor in your sight, please show me now your ways in order that I might found f- I, I might find favor in your sight." So he's asking, uh, "Hey God, can I have those laws back?" [laughs] Like, "Show me your ways, your commandments, your statutes. Like, show me your ways again." And so God answers that prayer too. He's like, "Great, bring two f- fresh tablets of stone up, and I'll write on them again [laughs] with my hand."
Seth: Let's pa- so you're not saying that w- uh, glory is the same thing as God's commands and laws.
David: I-
Seth: It's an additional-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to the commands and laws. So why don't, like, define glory?
David: Oh, yeah. Good luck with that.
Seth: [laughs] Like, what-
David: I mean, so-
Seth: ... what does, what does he mean-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... when he's asking for this?
David: I think he's asking-
Seth: 'Cause God's about to sh- give His name.
David: Right.
Seth: So we assume His name is glorious, like, has the, the quality of being-
David: The quality of being glorious
Seth: ... but what is glory?
David: Because-
Seth: Like, what is Moses asking for?
David: ... because Moses asks for, asks to see God's glory, and God says, "Yes, I will pass, I will make all my goodness pass before you," which I think is a really good definition of glory. Like, what, what is God's glory? It's all His goodness. It's, like, just the beauty and spectacle of everything good about Him on visible display.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then He adds to it, and He says, "And I will proclaim my name, Yahweh, to you." And so I, I, I, I think they're separate things, but I think the, the name of God and the law of God both have characteristics of glory, but neither of them are the glory of God. The glory of God is His presence, which is what everyone's so been out of shape that they're not gonna get anymore.
Seth: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: So he's-
David: And what Moses asks for
Seth: ... he's ask- he's like, "Show me your glory. Show me all of your goodness."
David: Right.
Seth: "Show me everything that's good about you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "Remind me of that thing."
David: And I would, I would venture that Moses didn't even know what he was asking for whenever he asked to see God's glory because as soon as it happens, so Moses goes up in the cleft of the rock, and God passes by His glory. He passes His glory by Moses, and He proclaims His name, and as soon as Moses catches a glimpse, he hits the deck, and Moses, Moses is there for, like, a split second looking at God, and he hits the deck. I don't think he knew what he was even asking for.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So I think, I think God's definition is probably a little bit more helpful than Moses' request.
Seth: And why do you think God responds to Moses by saying, like, "I will show you my glory, and I will proclaim my name to you"?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, what is, like-
David: Yes, yes
Seth: ... w- like, what's powerful about the, God proclaiming His own name?
David: Right.
Seth: Like-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... why is that something that Moses would want?
David: Well, I, I think it's something that God knew needed to accompany the visible manifestation of His glory. So because, um, w- Revelation, you know, uh, I think is two things in one i- in order to be complete, that it can't just be a spectacle that is beautiful. It has to be accompanied with truth. And so God not only puts on this insane display of His goodness, of His splendor, of His brilliance whenever He passes Moses by in all His shining glory, He also says truth to him about who He is. And so truth that doesn't have glory behind it can just go to the head, right? But glory that doesn't have truth to it can a- just go to the emotions. You need both in order to have a-
Seth: Right
David: ... holistic revelation of who God is. He is so splendorous that we want to behold Him, but we want to behold Him because of who He is in truth.
Seth: Right.
David: And so they have to go together.
Seth: It reminds me of, like, what Jesus does in all of His miracles. Like, they're miracles-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that, like, He raises people from the dead, but that's actually about what He will do.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's like He provides fish, but He actually provides food for all, like, all of us-
David: Right
Seth: ... as we eat and drink from Him-
David: Right
Seth: ... and, like, believe in Him.
David: He turns water into wine, but that points to His never-ending atonement of His blood that He provides-
Seth: Right
David: ... at the wedding feast.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, totally. [upbeat digital music] Okay, so Moses is in the cleft of the rock. God's about to pass by and show him His glory and proclaim to him His name. So Seth, what is God's name?
Seth: Uh, verse six of 30, uh, 4, "The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, 'The Lord, the Lord'"-
David: Yahweh, Yahweh
Seth: ... Yahweh, Yahweh-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, and the, to the third and fourth generation.' And Moses, like, quickly bowed his head toward the earth and worshiped."
David: There we go.
Seth: That's-
David: So-
Seth: ... the name of God
David: ... uh, next time you're praying, and you're, you want to say, like, "All right, so thank you, Father, for this and that," just replace Father with this full name of God-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and then you'll actually have it right. So instead of saying, "God, we pray," just say-The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and great. No, I'm just kidding. So but this is, when God says, "I'm gonna proclaim my name to you," this is him. This is God saying, like, "This is who I am." And, and what we have to remember is that when God originally proclaimed his name to Moses back in chapter three, right? Whenever s- whenever Moses asked for God's name, um, he said, "My name is I Am." And we talked about in, in the episode on, on the burning bush about how I Am was about covenant keeping. It was about, "I am the God who is with you. I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I am the God who's going to bring you into the land." And so I Am is about, "I am with you to save you." Um, and so here he's sa- he's saying the same thing. He's, he's talking about covenant keeping. So, like, the God's name, Yahweh, is a covenant name. It's a name that is, "I am keeping my covenant." And then even in the name, ah, steadfast love is this Hebrew word hesed, which steadfast love is kind of the, the, the word that the ESV uses to, to translate it, but it's covenant-
Seth: Covenant love
David: ... love.
Seth: Covenant love.
David: Covenant love. Yeah.
Seth: I was, um... Well, one thing that we should notice about this too is, like, this is reversed from the first time it's used. We mentioned this at the top, top of the show-
David: Yep
Seth: ... where we said, like, when this is explained before or in the Ten Commandments-
David: Right
Seth: ... we're told that, uh-
David: He visits the iniquity of the fathers
Seth: ... ah, and then we're told-
David: Then, yeah
Seth: ... about his steadfast love.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think it's interesting now that after sin is when God, like, front loads his grace and mercy towards his people. But I also think, like, in the narrative it's doing something as well because he- they're saying, "Don't make idols because what happened to the idolatrous nation of Egypt? I judged them."
David: Right.
Seth: "I visited in- their iniquity upon them."
David: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
Seth: Like, I, like, the blood that the, the, the pharaoh spilled in the river-
David: Right
Seth: ... I visited that on them by turning the river into blood.
David: Right.
Seth: Now that you have sinned-
David: Mm
Seth: ... I am showing you steadfast love and mercy, but that same judgment that happened to Isr- ah, to Egypt-
David: Yep
Seth: ... may also happen to you if you break the covenant.
David: Right.
Seth: So I think he's, like, ex- like, he's reversing it, showing mercy-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but he's also, like, narratively I think something's happening here as well. He's like, "This is-
David: That's cool
Seth: ... this is where you're at-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... right now."
David: Yeah. I think also, like, something to point out here is, like, how impossible this self-description of God by God, um, makes it to put God into a box. Like, he is neither this all-consuming judgmental force that is harsh and vindictive, neither is he this all-loving, always forgiving, never, never ever, ever would he punish someone kind of fluff god. He's like, "I am this, like, insanely gracious, faithful, merciful, slow to anger God, but who will by no means-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... clear the guilty, and I will hold generations accountable." Like, who is this God? Like [laughs]
Seth: It, there's this great quote by Treebeard.
David: Treebeard from-
Seth: Lord of the-
David: ... The Lord of the Rings-
Seth: The Lord of the Rings
David: ... for, for the, for the unfamiliar listener.
Seth: And if you don't know about Lord of the Rings, Treebeard is an ent.
David: Ent.
Seth: He's a-
David: Not an aunt.
Seth: An ent.
David: An ent.
Seth: And he, he's a tree who lives for thousands of years.
David: Yeah, so long.
Seth: And so the Entish language doesn't, like, operate like normal human language. It takes days.
David: A very long time-
Seth: A ve- [laughs]
David: ... to say anything.
Seth: It's like this whole idea is, like, their names are really long, and, like, you can never really know, like, like, humans cannot comprehend the span of life included in an ent.
David: Right.
Seth: And so when the hobbits ask Treebeard his name, he s- they, he says, "I'm, I'm not gonna tell you." And he says this: "For one thing, it would take a long while. My name is growing all the time, and I've lived a very long, long time. So my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to." I think that's such a great picture-
David: Mm
Seth: ... of what's happening in Exodus. Like, we're given the story of God's name back in Genesis 3-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and 4, and it's still unfolding-
David: Exodus 3 and 4
Seth: ... so the pe- uh, Exodus 3 and 4.
David: Yep.
Seth: And it's still unfolding as he gives the Ten Commandments, as they sin, and then as he gives it again-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the covenant confirmation. Like, his name-
David: I'm still Yahweh Yahweh.
Seth: I'm still Yahweh Yahweh, but my name is growing-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in your experience of it, and you really can't understand and comprehend, like, the span and scope of-
David: Right
Seth: ... who I am.
David: You had no idea that when I said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" that I would be the I Am of this idolatrous people who would build a golden calf at the foot of my mountain.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think that, like, that idea that, like, God can't do both things is really, like, it's, he, he, we think he can't do both things because we're human.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And humans can't do both things.
David: And by both things you mean be gracious and-
Seth: And-
David: ... and jud- judging
Seth: ... and, and judging.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But I think, uh, I think the character of Treebeard should help us imaginatively.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, you understand why a character who's spent thousands of years, like, living and speaks a language that takes a long time-
David: Mm
Seth: ... can't explain his name to you by virtue of the span of your life.
David: Right.
Seth: And how much more different-
David: Oh, my goodness
Seth: ... are we than God than a hobbit is to an ent?
David: [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] It's, it's like, that's maybe a terrible analogy.
David: I like it.
Seth: But the idea is, like, can we really expect to sum up God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in our language?
David: Right.
Seth: And I think the answer is no.
David: No.
Seth: Which is why we have a really enigmatic name, I Am.
David: I Am.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right.
Seth: Anyway.
David: Oh, no, it's really helpful. I really like that. Um, so what's going on here with this, um, I, "I won't, I won't clear the guilty. I will visit the iniquity of the fathers to your children and your children's children." Like, does this-
Seth: Man
David: ... does this mean I'm gonna be held responsible for my grandpa's sins?
Seth: Yeah, that's kinda, that's, that's my gut level reaction to it, is like-Oh, wait, I'm not responsible for great-grandpa-
David: Right
Seth: ... like, what he did wrong. So I think-
David: And even, even later in the Torah, we're gonna be told by God that he only holds individuals accountable-
Seth: Right
David: ... for their individual sin. He's not gonna make the son responsible for the father stealing a goat.
Seth: Yeah, so I've heard some people say something like, "Well, this is just kind of like generational things." So like if your father's an alcoholic-
David: Oh
Seth: ... you're gonna experience-
David: Generational sin
Seth: ... like generational sin-
David: Right
Seth: ... or generational impact of a particular sin. If your grandpa or your grandfather was an alcoholic, that-
David: It's gonna have a effect on you
Seth: ... as a son, that's gonna have an effect on you, and it's gonna change the way you relate to your son-
David: Right
Seth: ... who's... And change the way to your son, even if it's like pendulum swinging from being super gracious and allowing everything to happen or being really, really strict or, you know, like-
David: Yep
Seth: ... that's gonna affect long-term. So I've heard that before.
David: Sure.
Seth: I'm not sure that-
David: But that kinda takes... It feels like it takes God out of the equation.
Seth: Yeah, and so there's probably an element of that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, the... God constructs the world so that justice and righteousness are done. Like, that's why the Book of Proverbs can be written.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, like, I think that's true as far as it goes, but, like, there is a sense that God is actively-
David: Yes
Seth: ... judging.
David: There's a passive element to sin's danger-
Seth: Right
David: ... um, that, like, you fall into the, the trap you set for yourself, as the Proverbs often say.
Seth: Right.
David: But there is an active element of-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... of sin's danger.
Seth: And I think what's happening h- might be happening here is like when we say like, "God can't hold me responsible for what my great-great-grandpa did," I think we miss the fact that God is making a covenant with a community.
David: Right, a whole corporate body.
Seth: With a, a nation-
David: Right
Seth: ... with kings that will enact laws.
David: Yep.
Seth: So if a bad king makes one bad law or God judges that king for his bad law, that's gonna affect thousands of people.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And it's going to bring punishment on thousands of people based on the representatives who are sinning.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Does that make sense?
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: Did I say that clearly?
David: Yeah, there's this, there... God is making a covenant, a promise, with a whole group of people, so whenever he says, "I'm gonna give you my law," all of Israel says, "Everything the Lord has spoken we will do." And then later in Deuteronomy, we'll see that they agree to all the blessings and all the curses that God says they'll bring on if they break the law.
Seth: And they even, and they even say like, "And we agree to this, even to the third and fourth generation of our children."
David: They do. They own this whole idea.
Seth: So they're, they're recognizing that God is making a covenant with an entire nation, and that the sins of the few can impact the lives of all of them.
David: Right.
Seth: And that those sins might last for generations.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I think the, the clearest example would be exile-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at, at the end of the storyline of-
David: Right
Seth: ... the old, the history of the Old Testament. Like, generations of Israelites are suffering in exile because of the sins of the few, and they agreed to it.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: They agreed to it knowingly. They agreed to it. [gentle music]
David: Okay, so Moses hears the name of God, this long, tree beardest name, and, [laughs] and then he, uh, repeats the Ten Commandments to him basically, kind of in a longer form as well. Writes those down on the tablets, and then Moses comes off the mountain, and something's a little bit different about him. His face is radiating. It is shining bright with this glory of God. Like, what he saw on the mountain through the cleft of the rock is now embedded on his face. Like, he is mirroring the glory that he saw.
Seth: And everyone's terrified.
David: And everyone freaks out. Like, they are terr-
Seth: Which makes sense.
David: Oh, oh my gosh. Could you imagine?
Seth: They just did it on the mount... Like, they did it before when God showed the f-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... fire and thunder, and, I mean, it makes sense to be scared-
David: Right
Seth: ... just naturally.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But, like, they're freaking out. [laughs]
David: But then, like, when it's on Moses, they're like, "Uh, this is really scary." And so, like, they devise this plan where they're, they, they're like, "Hey, Moses, um, could you just wear this, like, mask, a veil? Could you put this veil over your face when you're around us?" And so Moses, he did. He wore this veil over his face, um, whenever he was around everybody else, and except whenever he went into the tent of meeting. Whenever he went back into the tent of meeting with God-
Seth: He took it off
David: ... he would took it off. He would take it off.
Seth: And that's like symbolic of that face-to-face type of thing.
David: That's exactly right. Yep, that's exactly right. And so, um, this is Exodus 33 and 34. Um, a- and, and there's so much here that we wanna try to, um, unpack, um, with how it relates to Jesus, especially because we have a, we have, we get, we... Paul. We have a guest speaker-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... on today, and it's the Apostle Paul, who just straight up in- does the Spoken Gospel podcast-
Seth: For us
David: ... this for us. [laughs]
Seth: And I mean-
David: And-
Seth: ... so just, like, rewind-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... pull back from this podcast for a second. Like, this text is the reason why-
David: Reason why we read-
Seth: ... we read scripture-
David: Yes
Seth: ... this way.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's... [laughs] So, like, this is a great time to talk about, but Paul gives us his infallible interpretation Jesus turn for-
David: Yes
Seth: ... what happens-
David: Yes
Seth: ... in these two, these two verses.
David: Right.
Seth: Particularly that, that last chapter.
David: So not only should you be hearing like, "Okay, yeah, I see how to see Jesus in Exodus 33 and 34 now," what you could also be seeing here is, like, here is biblical proof that the, [laughs] the, the Jesus turns we take and, like, seeing Christ in all of scripture, uh, here's our proof for it. Like, [laughs] this is why we, we're allowed to do this, and why we're commanded to do it. Yeah. Okay, so we're in 2 Corinthians?
Seth: 2 Corinthians, and Paul is talking about how we are ministers. Like, we all, all Christians, are the ones that are responsible for the new covenant.
David: Yep.
Seth: We are ministers of a new covenant, like giving out and responding and sharing the benefits and the goodness of the new covenant, and we can have confidence that we are in this new covenant, sharing this new covenant, uh, b- through Jesus because it's not about us. He says in verse four, "This is the reason we have... that I thought we are sufficient in ourselves," it's not about us, "to claim as anything coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who's made us sufficient to be ministers of this new covenant, not by the letter, uh, of the law, but by the spirit, for the letter kills and the spirit gives life."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: These are like code words for Paul, and essentially-
David: Right
Seth: ... is what he's saying is like the ministry of the law, like what happened through the law, ultimately brought death to Israel. That doesn't mean the law was bad.
David: Nope.
Seth: The God
Seth: Accomplished his purposes through it
David: Yep, it was gracious
Seth: It was gracious, it was kind, it was by faith alone
David: There was glory in it
Seth: There was glory in it
David: Yep
Seth: It was shown in the face of Moses. But what's happening in the Spirit is so much better, it's like death
David: Comparatively
Seth: Comparatively-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to the life that's coming
David: Right, and the reason is, is because he goes on to say that the, that the, the law was written on tablets of stone outside of us, and it said, "Look at this, do this." But he says the, the, the, the Spirit comes in, and he writes the law on tablets of flesh on your hearts, and it's, it's, it's that the law has been done for you, and it, that all of its blessings have been embedded on your heart through the Spirit of Jesus now dwelling in you
Seth: That's exactly right. And then, so verse seven comes back in and said, "Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: "... came with such glory that the Israelites could not, uh, gaze at Moses' [laughs] face because of its glory, which was brought to an, which was being brought to an end."
David: Right, which people talk about that meaning, like, the, the glory that was on Moses' face faded over time, right?
Seth: Faded over time.
David: It was being brought to an end.
Seth: And then that happened.
David: And the whole covenant was being brought to an end because it was gonna be replaced by a greater covenant
Seth: And no other mediator had a shining face.
David: Nope
Seth: Like, he, like, Moses was the only person that that happened to.
David: Right
Seth: So that this kind of way of God revealing himself is ending. The sh- shining faces end-
David: Yep
Seth: ... with Moses.
David: Right
Seth: Um, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?
David: More glory.
Seth: For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, like, that eventually brought death through the law-
David: Right
Seth: ... the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.
David: Right. Which, which, like, stop for a second, and just think about that picture that we just saw in Exodus of God passing by the cleft of the rock with so much glory that Moses could not look at God's face and live, and then it was so overwhelming that it, it was indelibly embedded on his face. Like, we're like, "Oh, I'm so jealous of Moses. That would've been so awesome." He's like, "No, no, no, no, no. The gospel has more glory than that."
Seth: What happened in Moses was a ministry of condemnation because it brought death. But what's happening in Jesus is called a ministry of righteousness because we are being given-
David: Given it
Seth: ... God's glory in us.
David: Right
Seth: We are being made righteous.
David: Right
Seth: The law is being written on our hearts.
David: Right
Seth: Not outside of us, but inside of us.
David: Yes
Seth: And that righteousness is better than our sh- face is shining.
David: Yes
Seth: That's what he's saying. Indeed, in this case, what was, wh-, uh, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all because of the glory that surpasses it.
David: Yeah, it's not that it had no glory at all. It's, by comparison, this glory so outshines the other glory, right? Verse 11.
Seth: Yeah, if what was being brought to an end came with glory, how much more will what is permanent-
David: Mm
Seth: ... have glory?
David: Yeah. So the, what, what, what faded or died out or couldn't be kept in the old covenant is now completely permanent when the Spirit that comes in us and writes the righteousness that Christ earned for us through the law on our hearts, right?
Seth: Right
David: That, that is, that is sealed up in us.
Seth: That is permanent.
David: And it's permanent.
Seth: It's permanent.
David: It's not going anywhere.
Seth: Yeah, like the, uh-
David: I love that
Seth: ... end come thou found, come thou found, the, the, the, the same hymn
David: Take my heart, Lord.
Seth: Take it, seal it-
David: Here's my heart, Lord. Seal it
Seth: ... for thy courts above.
David: Yeah
Seth: And since we have such a hope, we are very bold, but not like Moses-
David: [laughs] Was he
Seth: ... who would put a veil over his face so the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
David: Right
Seth: So explain that one a little. Like, that one feels a little more opaque.
David: Oh, sure. So, so yeah, it's just that, that Moses would hide the glory of God. And so, like, um, I think the, I think Paul here kind of condemns Moses a little bit for this, that, um, the people came, and they were terrified of the glory of God shining in the face of Moses, and they said, "Hey, will you put this veil over, over your face?" And Moses complied. Moses should not have complied with that request. He should've been bold and said, "No. Here is the glory of God shining in my face." But he, he says Moses was not bold. He instead-
Seth: Mm
David: ... agreed to hide the glory of God. But we aren't, we aren't like that. Like you said when we started this text, it's that we are ministers of reconciliation, that we take the glory of God out into the world. We are bold about it because we have a better glory that we wanna show the world
Seth: And this was because their minds were hardened
David: Right, and not only the Israelites, but probably Moses' too.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yep
Seth: To a certain extent
David: To a certain extent
Seth: And to this day. So th- there's this hardening that al- does not allow people to see the glory of God-
David: The glory of God
Seth: ... even in the ministry of condemnation.
David: Right
Seth: And then he says, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted because only through Christ is it taken away.
David: Right
Seth: The only way that we can look at God's glory and love it is through Jesus Christ.
David: Right. So what we need to see here is Paul's using a metaphor here. So he's saying that, like, there was, there was this glory of God, and Moses covered it up with a veil. He says now, whenever you go back into the Old Testament and you read it, people can't see God's glory in it because there's still a veil over it, and that veil is not a physical piece of fabric. That veil is the hardness of your own mind, that you cannot see the glory of God when you read the Old Testament unless something happens, and what is that thing? Well, you, you just read it.
Seth: Through.
David: Through Christ
Seth: It's taken away.
David: Right. Only whenever-
Seth: The veil is taken off.
David: Right
Seth: The hearts are changed. The law, like, righteousness dwells in you. That's the only way that you can see the glory of God in the Old Testament.
David: Right
Seth: And he says a- again a little bit more. "Yes, to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts, but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed."
David: Yeah, and that is the same exact language. So, uh, the Greek matches the, the Septuagint, which is the Greek version of the Old Testament. In, um, Exodus 34, wh- at the, at the end when Moses goes in the tent of meeting and takes off his veil, it says, "Moses turned to the Lord and took off his veil."
Seth: You are now in the presence of God-
David: In the presence of God
Seth: ... just like Moses was
David: Because Christ dwells in you through the Spirit
Seth: What, what, what the people wish they could've done-
David: Right
Seth: ... but were too scared to do is what you actually have by virtue of Jesus Christ
David: Yes
Seth: So cool. Now the Lord is the Spirit
David: Right. Yahweh is s- is the Spirit. [laughs]
Seth: And where the Spirit of the Lord is, where the Spirit of Yahweh is, there is freedom.
David: Right
Seth: And freedom to do what specifically?
David: Yes. So freedom to behold the glory of God. Like, so Moses, he had to hide-Behind the cleft of the rock, right? The Israelites had to hide the glory of Moses behind a veil. There was all this hiding. There's no freedom. Like Moses, whenever he went into the tent of meeting, he could no longer speak with God face to face. There was all this lack of freedom, right?
Seth: Right.
David: And, and so Moses had to hide behind the cleft of the rock. But now there's freedom for us who have Christ to actually, like, full face behold the glory of God because Christ is our rock that, uh, behind which we hide.
Seth: Right.
David: And what's cool about it is Christ is, is our safety, right? So he takes the, the, the punishment that we deserved, um, as the, as the rock kind of bore the, the glory of God, but he's also the cleft through which we can see the glory of God. Because as he was open for us, it's through his, his wounds and his sacrifice that we can actually look through and see basically how God unravels this mystery of how he is both gracious and forgiving, and by no means clearing the guilty. It's that in, in Christ, the l- like we have it, we have both.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he expl- and he says that. The, the freedom is, in verse 18, "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the wh- glory of the Lord."
David: Right.
Seth: He defines the freedom for us.
David: Yep. We get what Moses got, but even better.
Seth: But even better. We behold him face, the glory of the Lord face to face. And when we do-
David: Oh man, this is the best part
Seth: ... we are being transformed into the same image. I'm assuming he's meaning the same image o- of Jesus.
David: Of Jesus
Seth: ... of Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're s- being, look, we look more and more like Jesus from one degree of glory to another, for this comes from the Spirit, from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
David: Right. So just i- i- in the degree, so Moses looked at the glory of God and his face shone, right? It mimicked the glory that he saw.
Seth: Right.
David: But it was just outward. It was only his face. Here, though-
Seth: His image was transformed
David: ... his image was transformed, but only in part, right? Now, what we get in Christ is that as we behold Jesus in all of Scripture, we, we, he's talking about reading here.
Seth: Right.
David: He's also talking about the inward ministry of the Holy Spirit. He's talking about both things. Um, as this happens, as we behold the glory of God, as we, as you guys do what we're trying to do here in this podcast, by showing you Jesus in all of Scripture, as we look at him, behold him, treasure him, what happens is that we are changed into the same image as Jesus, from one degree of glory-
Seth: Glory
David: ... which is what Moses saw, to another. So, like, like, the glory that you're made into today through sanctification, beholding Jesus more and more, surpasses that glory. And like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and then eventually it's consummated, as 1 John 3:2 will tell us, that when Jesus returns and we behold him full-faced, we will become like him-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... because we'll see him as he is. So there is a link, sorry, there's a link between beholding and becoming.
Seth: Yes.
David: That what we behold, we become.
Seth: And remember what glory means. It's like the fullness of God's beauty-
David: His goodness
Seth: ... and his goodness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and his perfections. Like, slowly, over time, you are becoming perfect.
David: Ugh. [laughs]
Seth: You're becoming-
David: So good
Seth: ... good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You're becoming wise.
David: Right.
Seth: You're becoming loving.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, this is what's happening to you.
David: And I love that the, the, the, the way we go about becoming perfect, becoming in the image of Jesus, he doesn't say, "So just, you know, bootstrap yourself, you know, like, reign in your desires, you know, fix yourself up." He says, "No, no, no. Here's how you become more like Jesus. Look at him."
Seth: Look at him.
David: Look at him.
Seth: Like, just go up on the mountain and look at him.
David: Did Moses do something else?
Seth: No. Moses looked at the glory of the Lord and was transformed one degree.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His face shone.
David: Yep.
Seth: By looking at Jesus, we are continued to transform, be t- transformed.
David: Yeah. Yeah, it's so cool. [gentle music] Okay, so now we, we turn, i- i- it, it just continues, but we're in chapter four now.
Seth: Therefore.
David: Therefore.
Seth: Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I think we is referring to Paul and-
David: Right, and his fellow ministers
Seth: ... and his fellow ministers. But why would they lose heart? Well-
David: Yeah. Man, I don't know. Why would they lose heart?
Seth: Um, I th- I think they would lose heart because it's probably, it might be expected of them to lose heart as they're preaching Jesus from the Old Testament to Jews and to other people.
David: Yeah, it's a hard ministry.
Seth: And that it's not, maybe not as, like, successful. Maybe they're prone to discouragement. Maybe they're-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they, they wonder if it's working.
David: Right.
Seth: But Paul's saying, "We don't lose heart in this ministry."
David: Right.
Seth: And then he s- gives us a reason. "But we have, because, but," I don't know the Greek word there, but, "but we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways."
David: Right.
Seth: "We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word. By the open statement of the truth, we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it's veiled to those who are perishing."
David: Right.
Seth: So what's happening?
David: There's a lot going on there. And so basically what he's saying is, like, like, yeah, they're going in and he's preaching the gospel, the, the crucified Messiah, Jesus, out-
Seth: From the Old Testament
David: ... from the Old Testament, to Jews, who are like, who killed him.
Seth: Right.
David: And they're like, this is not an easy ministry to do. But he's like, "Look, we are not tampering with God's word. We're not using disgraceful or underhanded ways. We're not, we're not trying to be manipulative or anything like that. We are coming to you with open truth, and we're saying that the only way to understand the Old Testament is to see Jesus in all of it, and that whenever you don't, you are actually reading it with a veil over it." And he, and so he says, "So I commend myself and our interpretation of the text to you and everyone's conscience in the sight of God. Test it. Like, go see. Like, go read it for yourself, and if you don't see Jesus's glory in it, like, prove me wrong."
Seth: Right.
David: Like, that's what this is about. But even if you do go and our gospel, the good news, is veiled in the Old Testament, uh, it's veiled to those who are perishing. I- i- i-
Seth: It pr- if you do not see Jesus in the Old Testament-
David: Yeah, this is getting harsh, but
Seth: ... it proves you do not belong to God's new covenant.
David: Right.
Seth: And then he goes on explaining what that means.
David: Right, and how this functions.
Seth: He says-
David: Yep
Seth: ... in their case, in the people who don't see the gospel-
David: Don't see Jesus, yep
Seth: ... that don't see Jesus in the story of Exodus-
David: Right, yep
Seth: ... he says, um-
David: The God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers-
Seth: Unbelievers
David: ... to keep them from seeing the lightOf the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Seth: Right.
David: Right, so, so the God of this world, right, so like the accuser, Satan, he's, he's blinded our minds to see, from seeing God's glory. He is the one who has stretched the veil over the Old Testament, under the authority of God, and only through Christ then we'll see, right, i- is it taken away.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so the gospel of the glory of God, who is, the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, we should have in our minds, like-
David: Yep, Moses
Seth: ... like what, Moses, like, he, he, it's reaching a climax at this point.
David: It is, yes.
Seth: Because we're about, so Moses had a shining face, images being changed, like glory of God, glory of Christ now.
David: Yeah, the light, yeah.
Seth: So something's happening, and it says, "And so, so what we proclaim is not ourselves."
David: Right.
Seth: We're, we're not that clever.
David: Yep.
Seth: We're not that smart.
David: Right.
Seth: What we're proclaiming to you is Jesus Christ as Lord, as God.
David: As Yahweh.
Seth: As Yahweh, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. We're trying to serve you, we wanna give you the Good News.
David: Yep.
Seth: We wanna give you God's presence-
David: Right
Seth: ... and goodness. We want you to experience that because the God who said light, let light shine out of darkness has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God shining in the face of Jesus Christ.
David: Right. So what does it, what does it mean to know God, the knowledge of God? What is, what does it mean to know God?
Seth: What does it mean to stand face to face with God-
David: Right
Seth: ... in His tabernacle?
David: Yep.
Seth: Intimately, like a friend.
David: Yep, it's to have the light of Christ in your heart, which means to believe that Jesus is who He said He was. It's that simple. It's that Jesus is God, that He died for our sins. He took the, the, the, the punishment for our stiff necks as, as Jesus said.
Seth: He took the condemnation-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and replaced it with righteousness.
David: Yep, yeah, and the Spirit has written that on your heart. So like, like that, that, that's what Genesis, or Exodus 33 and 34 is all about, which is so crazy that it's-
Seth: Moses' shining face is about-
David: Oh
Seth: ... Jesus' shining face-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... shining into an unbelieving and dark world and convincing people that are perishing that they don't have to.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think it's-
David: No, it's so good. And so, like, I, I would, I would give one little last plea here at the end to just say, like, this is why we do what we do right here, is, like, we want to show Jesus in all of Scripture because we believe that as you behold Him in all of Scripture, as that veil is removed, not only will you love your Bible more [laughs] and, like, will it be way more fun to read, but actually, like, this is how you are supposed to read your Bible, and this is how you will be changed when you read your Bible, is that when you behold the face of Jesus Christ in His gospel shining throughout every corner of Scripture, then you will become like Him from one degree of glory to another.
Seth: Yeah, and this is not because we're super impressive people-
David: No
Seth: ... or really, really smart people.
David: Right.
Seth: Paul says it in the next verse, "But we have this treasure in jars of clay."
David: Right.
Seth: Like, we are, like, kind of cheap pottery.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We're like, we're not that impressive. Why? So that we can show the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way.
David: Mm.
Seth: And, like, I think we would b- both say that. We are broken people.
David: Yep.
Seth: We're not super impressive. We come to here, into this podcast studio overwhelmed, depressed, frustrated-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... busy.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, there have been days I've been sitting here, and it's been a struggle to get two words out. But that's because the power doesn't belong to us.
David: That's right.
Seth: It belongs to God, Jesus Christ, being, like, His face shining into your hearts.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's where our hope rests.
David: That's so true. And like, yeah, and it, so it's why, it's why it's so important not to make the centerpiece of your reading of Scripture yourself. Because if you do, you're put, you're, you're, you're like, you're trying to flip the equation of, of the, the glory going into the, the, the, the broken pot. You're trying to make the broken pot the centerpiece of the story. Whenever we try to moralize Scripture or, or put ourselves into the story, uh, we, we are trying to put a broken pot into the-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... the middle instead of the glory.
Seth: Paul talks about, like, not losing heart.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think this is where we can talk about how quickly we are to lose heart as well.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When you see the slowness of our own sanctification.
David: Right.
Seth: The slowness of us, like, changing to be more like Jesus, the fact that we're still struggling with the same sin over-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and over and over again. Paul says, "Don't lose heart. You are broken."
David: Yep.
Seth: "But that's so that Christ can be shown through you."
David: Mm.
Seth: You have this ministry of reconciliation where you're supposed to communicate this great truth of the gospel, but you feel totally inadequate.
David: Good. [laughs]
Seth: God is in you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And because you're broken, that's why your gospel will be powerful.
David: That's good. Well, man, thank, thank you guys so much for joining us on this longer episode. Uh, it was so important, though. We would just encourage you to, uh, continue to, uh, open your Bible, cleft the Bible open-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... and see the glory of God in it, i- in the face of Jesus Christ.
Seth: I've always thought of cleft like cleaver.
David: Oh, yes.
Seth: And so I've always just imagined, like, a meat cleaver-
David: Yep
Seth: ... hitting a rock.
David: A rock. [laughs]
Seth: And then that split when you take the knife out, that's the cleft.
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: That's, that's my-
David: Well, there you go. We'll leave you with that.
Seth: [laughs]
David: No, no, we'll leave you, we'll leave you with that admonition to just, um, to, to keep pressing in, keep seeing Jesus in the, in the Bible, and let that vision change you from one degree of glory to the next. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of Scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
