Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
Seth: Hello, and welcome to Spoken Gospel podcast with Seth Stewart and David Bowden.
David: [laughs] That was awesome. I like it. That's the first one that you've kicked off.
Seth: Oh, really?
David: We're gonna keep it.
Seth: Okay.
David: I like it.
Seth: Awkward silence.
David: See, this is what happens. This is-
Seth: This is why I can't start the podcast
David: ... this is why you can't start the podcast, but you've done it now. So what are we, what are we looking at today, Seth?
Seth: Uh, Exodus 16 and 17, but not Exodus 18.
David: Yeah, forget Exodus 18. [laughs]
Seth: We'll do that next week.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Probably as a special episode because it's kind of a shorter section within the text-
David: Right
Seth: ... that we're gonna just talk about-
David: Yep
Seth: ... separately.
David: So 16 and 17, though, we have Israel has been freed from slavery, they've passed the Red Sea, they've sang their victory hymn, and now they're making their way to Mount Sinai through the wilderness.
Seth: And they're hungry and they're thirsty.
David: It happens when you're, when you're traveling.
Seth: In the desert.
David: You get the road munchies.
Seth: Road munchies.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] I thought I had something clever, but then all I could think of was marijuana re- references.
David: But, and, and we're not, we're not, we're not that kind of podcast.
Seth: We're not. Nope.
David: We're really not.
Seth: We don't live in Portland.
David: We don't.
Seth: We live in California.
David: No, we just live in Oklahoma. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Okay, so, uh, I'm excited about this one. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. Um, there's a lot of references to this story throughout the Old Testament and in the New Testament, so we have some really clear biblical themes to work with. So, but that also makes it, it also kind of, I don't know, hones in our discussion a little bit, too, 'cause we know that we have lanes in which we have to drive to interpret this correctly because the Bible has come alongside us and interpreted it for us.
Seth: Right. We don't have to make a whole bunch of interpretive leaps-
David: Right
Seth: ... which we probably might have to make next week as we talk about Jethro, like, baptizing people.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, Jethro telling Moses to make sure you have all these judges, but for this week, we actually can ... Well, actually, a lot of scripture already interprets this for us.
David: Right.
Seth: So we just get to walk in the footsteps of better people.
David: [laughs] Much better people. Yeah. Um, okay, so let's, let's, let's take a look at this. Um, we have bread from heaven is the first thing that occurs here. What should we be looking for as we enter into this story? Uh, 'cause, like, people know about the manna from heaven kind of idea.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So what's the setting? What's the context? Like, what should we be looking for?
Seth: So they're two months, they've, they left Egypt, uh, in the first month, now it's a month later, the 15th day of the second month, they're on their way to Sinai after they've gone through the Red Sea, and the people start grumbling against Moses in verse two. So this has already happened. Uh, this is something that we're g- becoming more and more accustomed, accustomed to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by these people.
David: We saw them grumbling at the Red Sea, when they're like, "Oh, I wish we would've just, you know, we'd rather have been slaves in Egypt rather than die here by the sea." And now they're saying, "We would have rather died in Egypt with all the plagues of God-
Seth: Right
David: ... than have been set free at all."
Seth: Because we had meat pots-
David: Meat pots. [laughs]
Seth: ... and bread to the full, and you brought us out here in the wilderness to kill this whole assembly with hunger."
David: Yeah. So it's like we could have died at least under some kind of massive plague surrounded by food, but now we have to slowly starve out here in the middle of nowhere.
Seth: And then what's fascinating is verse four, it's God said, "Okay, I will give you food, but my food is gonna be a test for you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I'm gonna give you manna, and it's gonna be a te- that I may test them whether they will walk in my law or not."
David: Right. And it wasn't until I was looking at this text in preparation for the podcast that I realized that, that the manna from heaven was actually part of a testing of their obedience to God's law. I'd never made that connection. I don't know why, but-
Seth: Yeah, and I think part of, I think part of, Sailhamer points this out, so Pentateuchal Narrative, he talks like, okay, this is one of the first times we see God demanding a daily type of trust from the Israelites.
David: Yep.
Seth: And as the story goes on and they wander through the wilderness and they get into the Promised Land, the consequences of their continued grumbling gets worse and worse, and the, and the way that God responds to them-
David: Mm
Seth: ... is harsher and harsher. So 'cause I was kind of expecting that here, 'cause I'm in, I'm in Numbers right now, and as I'm reading this, I'm like, "Oh, gosh, they're grumbling. Fire and brimstone."
David: It's coming. [laughs]
Seth: But it wasn't.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, God sent them quail, and then he sent them more bread.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they said, "Why are you doing this?" And He, He seemed far gentler here than I see Him in other passages.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So I think there's an escalation that we should be expecting as they continue to grumble.
David: Mm, that's interesting. Yeah. And like, and what, what I, what I think we can talk about here, too, is it's really interesting, Psalm 78 takes up this story and does it in like a, in, in song form, and retells Israel's deliverance and God providing the manna in the wilderness and everything, and it talks about this moment in the song, um, where the psalmist talks about them grumbling against God because they were hungry, and it says that God's anger was kindled against them, and He was upset at their apostasy and their faithlessness, their disbelief, and it says, "But He provided for them manna and water." And it's like, so in, even though God is angry, He-
Seth: Still providing
David: ... He's still providing. He, He kinda takes that hit, uh, and, and, and provides, which I think is just an amazing show of God's grace here and His patience, which I think probably often gets overlooked of, like, the God of the Old Testament.
Seth: Yeah, like, God is still gracious-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and still loving even in His anger. Um-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which I think we would just say is, like, we see God's grace and His love and His anger here in the Old Testament, and we kind of assume that in the New Testament grace is ratcheted up, but I think probably the more fair picture is both grace is ratcheted up and God's anger is ratcheted up at the same time, because now we're just talk- not just talking about-Judgment on one nation, but of all nations-
David: Yeah, sure
Seth: ... that fail to, to repent-
David: Right
Seth: ... and turn to Christ.
David: So yeah, so here in this text, we're seeing that, okay, so as we look at this story, we need to look at how is this a test of the people, that they would obey God's law or not. We see that this is a show of God's, uh, provision and grace. And then another thing we need to see in, uh, 16:12 is that, um, th- that God is doing this so that Israel might know that Yahweh is God. And, um, I just... I'm reminded of earlier in the stories of Exodus, we saw over and over again that why was God doing these plagues and these, these great acts of judgment against Egypt? Well, it was for, it was for the same reason. It was so that Pharaoh and all of Egypt would know that Yahweh is God. And now, he's providing for, for Israel so that they might know the same thing. So in both punishment and provision, God is trying to show that he's the one true God who has control over everything, that he is Yahweh.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And even the way in which the Israelites blame God for not being present is described as a test.
David: Mm.
Seth: So in v- 17 verse, uh, 7, it says, "They tested the Lord by saying, 'Is the Lord among us or not?'"
David: Right.
Seth: So even the... So God's giving them a test and saying, "Will you be faithful even as I provide? Will you trust me every single day to trust that there'll be quail and bread for you to eat?"
David: Right.
Seth: "You said you want to meat pots and bread till you are full. I will give that to you-
David: Right
Seth: ... every single day. Will you trust me every single day?" And their test back to the Lord is, "Will you be with us or not?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Which is Yahweh.
David: Right, which i- it's, it's a, it's quite an affront to God to say, "Will, will Yahweh, will I will be with you, be with us?" Like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... 'cause we, we talked about in, in the Yahweh, in the podcast-
Seth: I know I will be with you.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Save me from Egypt. I know I will be with you, parted the Red Seas. I know I will be with you, sent a cloud overhanging us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But will I will be with you when I'm hungry?
David: [laughs] Right. Which is crazy. It's like he was with us in the great things. Will he be with us in the simple things? Like, it- it's, it's insane.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, but I mean, I guess I do that all the time. I'm always the doubter, where it's like, well, I know God was faithful to raise Jesus from the dead, but is he faithful to, you know, keep my, um, my... M- my wife is pregnant right now. Is, is he faithful to-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like-
Seth: Right
David: ... sustain life in my wife's womb? [laughs] Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... and I'm like, "Oh, man, now I doubt." Like, I'm like, and then, you know, and, like, this isn't a, like a surefire thing that's like God's gonna always give me what I most want, and, and like always gonna provide for me in the way I think, but he's always gonna be good, he's always gonna be faithful, he's always going to do what is best and right and just. And so I can trust him, not that things are gonna go my way, but that he'll provide.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think part of it, too, is that we're quick... I think the Israelites are quick to misinterpret Moses as the one giving them these things, these gifts-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and not God. 'Cause over and over again, they go to Moses, and Moses-
David: And
Seth: ... has to say-
David: "Why are you grumbling against me?" [laughs]
Seth: Like, "Aren't you, aren't these complaints against God?" And over and over again, God says, "The reason I'm doing this is to show you that I'm the one that brings you bread." So, like, verse, uh, s- 15 and 16, "It is the bread that the Lord has given you to eat, so that, so that you would know that I am the Lord your God,"
David: Mm.
Seth: in verse, uh, 12. Uh, in verse 10, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud. The whole purpose of this miracle is to show that God is present with his people, that God is there for his people, and he's the one providing, not Moses, not anybody else.
David: Wow, yeah. So l- I wanna look at, just real quick here, I wanna look at what actually happened, 'cause it- it's pretty interesting the way God set it up. So, um, Moses basically says that food is going to come on the land. Um, it's gonna be quail at night, right, and then manna in the morning.
Seth: Yep.
David: And, um, and he says that everyone's gonna go out, uh, six days a week, you're gonna go out, and you're gonna gather, um, enough for you to eat. And he says that those who gathered much didn't have too much, and those who gathered little did not have too little. And, um, and, and what we have to realize is that that doesn't mean that everyone gathered exactly the right amount. It means that somehow, miraculously, God was superintending the situation, that those who tried to get a whole bunch, by the time they got back to their tents, they had just enough for their family. And those who didn't quite get enough, maybe for lack of trying, or I don't, I don't know, maybe they're trying to be humble or something. [laughs]
Seth: Maybe somebody else stole it all.
David: Yeah, right. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: God, God increased what they had so that everyone had this weight measurement of one omer per person, which is, like, what was it, six pints or something like that?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] At the very last verse of 16, an omer is the tenth part on a, of, of an, a, a phath, [laughs] which-
David: Right, which is-
Seth: ... is barely six pints
David: ... something we're all very familiar with.
Seth: But what's... I thought this was super interesting, like, the amount of technical detail in that little phrase right there.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was think- like, so people debate whether this was wr- written by Moses or not. So I was like, this, for me, this is like, I wonder if Moses did write this, 'cause he's so, like, he is so in tune with the disruptive nature and the disobedience of his people. He's like, "Here's exactly what you need to collect."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "Just collect this much here. That's a 10th part of this measurement of this measurement."
David: Right.
Seth: Like, "Here's the technical..."
David: "Would you just do this?"
Seth: "Just do this." [laughs]
David: [laughs] And so, uh, but they're supposed to do that six times a day, and i- and they're-
Seth: Six days a week.
David: Six days a week, sorry. [laughs] Six times a day, six days a week, and they are supposed to eat everything that they collect. Absolutely everything. Why? Because it's just enough. And they eat it all, and anything that's left over, worms grow up into it and make it stink, or the sun comes out and melts it. So anything that's left over gets completely done away with, except for the seventh day, which is called the Sabbath, which is just a Hebrew word for rest. Like, literally, the word is just, like, rest. It's a rest day. It's a day of rest. And what's interesting, I, I, as I was reading through it, I realized that God tells them that he will provide a double portion on the, on-
Seth: Right
David: ... on, at the end of the sixth day to, you know, and, and not rot away the food for the seventh day. He'll, he'll give them what they need before he even commands the Sabbath rest. So provision precedes the command, which I thought was really interesting, that God says, "I'm gonna provide you a double portion for two days. Oh, by the way, on that second day, rest."
Seth: Yeah, I think part of that, too, is the author of Genesis, uh, Exodus assumes you are reading through this multiple times, because even at the end of the chapter, in verse, uh, 35, the people of Israel ate the manna 40 years till they came to the habitable land.
David: Right.
Seth: So this, but they haven't-
David: They haven't even gotten there yet.
Seth: They haven't even disobeyed, they've been exiled for 40 years in the wilderness.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, it's assuming that you know these rhythms of the Hebrew life.
David: Yes.
Seth: And, like, you're like, "Oh, this happened before the Sabbath."
David: Right.
Seth: And God's still doing it.
David: Yes. Yeah.
Seth: Like, God's always providing before He commands. It's the same thing that happens on a meta level with He brought Is- Israel out of Egypt, through the Red Sea, before they got the, the commands of God, the Ten Commandments, and everything else that we'll see at Sinai. So God's always providing before He commands. [gentle music]
David: So, so Seth, what, what, what's, uh, what's Israel's response to God's commands to just, "Hey, here's some free food, just follow these simple rules." [laughs]
Seth: Both surprisingly and unsurprisingly, they, they disobey.
David: Right.
Seth: They don't follow the rules, and worms crop up in the first time.
David: Right, they try to keep some stuff overnight.
Seth: They try to keep some stuff. They try to go out-
David: Out on the Sabbath
Seth: ... on the Sabbath when they're not supposed to. Like, they don't follow through on the commands, and, uh, the Lord in verse 28 said to Moses, "How long will you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?"
David: Mm.
Seth: Um, and He said, "Look, I've given you this day to rest, and you're not doing it." Um, so disobedience is the response. And what's crazy about this is, like, the way the manna is set up is, like, you can't help but see God's provision in it. It literally falls like snow every morning, and it melts away, and if you collect too much, it doesn't, it doesn't work. And if you collect too little, you suddenly have enough. [laughs] And then on the s- every single week, on the sixth day, you get twice as much, and it doesn't go bad. Like, the whole thing is constructed so that you know you can't escape the fact that God gave this-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... every step of the way.
David: Yeah, from the ground up, it's, like, ontologically provisional. [laughs]
Seth: It's like, right. Like, you can't-- God has given this, and God is pro- like, preserving it for you.
David: It's amazing.
Seth: Yet they still disobey.
David: Yeah. Which I, I don't know, I've never made this connection. It might be a step too far, but it is really interesting that, you know, the word for manna is what is it, you know? It, the Hebrew word that sounds like man- it's just man.
Seth: Right, right.
David: You know? And it, it's the Hebrew word for what. And so they called it the what is it bread. That's manna. And, um, it's, it's kind of interesting that, that they never give it a name, they never quite understand what this food is, and it's kind of a parallel. Y- it's like they never understood it was provision. It's like, what is it?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's God's provision, and they never really felt like they trusted it. And like, you know, they ate it for 40, 40 years in the wilderness, so you have to, you have to assume that after a while they got into the rhythm, [laughs] you know? But at least here at the beginning.
Seth: But what is interesting, so this is kind of jumping a little bit further-
David: Sure
Seth: ... afield into like, how does this turn to Jesus? But when Jesus turn, uh, feeds the 5,000, and He creates, He sends bread, brings bread from heaven, the Jews on that day make the same mistake the Jews in this story make.
David: Hm.
Seth: They hear their, they keep misattributing the miracle to Moses. And again, in John 6, they misattribute the miracle to Moses. Like, well, what did Moses do to prove that it was from God? He sent bread. And then Jesus said, "No, the whole point was that I, that God sent the bread."
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: If God is the one sending the bread, that's how you'll be provided for, and that's when the turn comes. So the true bread from heaven is He who comes from heaven, and He says, "I am that bread."
David: Interesting.
Seth: So we'll get there in a second.
David: Okay, yeah, 'cause I wanna, I want you to unpack that more, 'cause I think that'll be helpful. Um, what else do we need to see here in the, the manna story before we move on to the water from the rock? Uh, I mean, the one thing, there's one interesting thing here about the, uh, God providing some of the manna that will basically, like, last forever, that, um, He's told to put into a jar-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and, like, keep by the Ark of the Covenant, uh, as a testimony to the people forever of God's provision.
Seth: Yeah, remember always God's provision and promises to you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And yet they still don't. [both laughing] It's like, not, not only has all the other manna is dissolving on this, on the day as midday comes, there's a whole bucket of it that doesn't dissolve for some reason, and there's no worms in it. Like, how can you escape the fact that God has sent this and God has provided for it?
David: Yeah. Okay, so actually before we jump to 17, I do wanna point out something that, um, I noticed as I was reading, and, and I didn't see any other commentators pick it up, so I hope I'm not, I'm not jumping too, too far ahead here.
Seth: Probably.
David: I probably am gonna mess it up. But it seems pretty straightforward to me that, um, so we're talking about, like, the unsurprising rhythms of Israel. I think we see one here. So at the end of 15, we mentioned this last week in the podcast, that, um, at the end of 15, you have this short covenantal statement that God gives to the people. Uh, he says in 15:26, "If you will diligently listen to the voice of the Lord your God and do that which is right in His eyes and give ear to His commands and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord your healer." And so this is, like, the beginning, uh, it's like a very similar cover- covenantal formula that He's gonna give when they get to Sinai. And so we have God giving him, G- God giving a covenant, and then God giving commands, so the command to, um, to gather just the right amount of food, to not go out on the Sabbath. And then you have s- d- and then you have disobedience. So you have covenant, command, disobedience, and that's constantly what we're gonna see throughout all of the Old Testament even.
Seth: Yeah, covenant, command, disobedience, and then actually law. So w- that, that's, and, uh, we haven't unpacked that yet 'cause we haven't got to the law.
David: Right.
Seth: But, but people think like, "Oh, all the laws included in the first five books of the Bible are all the laws." Like, actually, no, it's a pretty incomplete law book if you look at it that way. There's a whole bunch of situations and circumstances not addressed.
David: Sure.
Seth: But the way the st- the story is built, the first five books are built, it's like there's promises, there's covenants, there's, uh, disobedience, and then God comes in and says, "Okay, now here's some laws to help restrain you in the way that you just, just disobeyed." Then what ends up happening again, reaffirm, affirmation of the promises, reaffirmation of the covenant, new types of mis- disobedience-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and then new laws to help them and correct them on the way.
David: Right.
Seth: So, like, these laws are the, that add-
David: That's interesting though. It, it's almost as if like, um, the laws grow in proportion with our disobedience, and so it's like, it, it's almost supp- supposed to show us like this domino effect that like the more we disobey, well, then, then we need more laws, and then we disobey from those laws, so we need more laws. And really, what the Old Testament is showing us is that the law is not gonna be the solution. Like, it, it can't be.
Seth: It can't.
David: I mean, look at, look at here. He's like, "Okay, let's do this really simple test. Let's do a case study with these people. I'm gonna give you free food," [laughs] right? And, and then here's just two things. Like, don't keep it overnight, and just chill at home on the seventh day. That's, th- that's it. Let's see if you can keep that law. And they can't. It's the simplest law, and they can't keep it. And neither could I if I was with them. But it's like, I mean, that should be very indicative to us of like the rest of the story is that Israel's always gonna fail.
Seth: And as soon as they fail, what happens in verse 29? They're given a law about the Sabbath.
David: Right.
Seth: Don't travel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Don't go out of your tent. It's a law. Like-
David: The law is trying to come up and shore up the-
Seth: Right
David: ... the, the disobedience, and, and this is where-
Seth: And so in this way, right, we can say, okay, the law is failing, but we can actually say the law is really gracious.
David: It is.
Seth: Like a good parent who says, "Okay, that didn't work. You, you're not ready for that type of responsibility. We're just gonna give you another level of parenting oversight-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... in this, in this instance until you're ready."
David: Right.
Seth: And what we find is that we're not ready until our hearts are changed.
David: Right. And that's really interesting. That's, and that's what, that's what, um, I think it's Paul ends up, yeah, in Galatians, Paul ends up calling the law like a little pseudo parent. He calls him a pedagogue, you know? It's like the law came a, a, like, to you to instruct you and train you. So I just found that interesting.
Seth: It is.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So side note on the law. [laughs]
David: [laughs] Parenthetical whole thing on the law right there.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Anyway, but, uh, okay, water from the rock, I think that was, I don't know. I, I've never thought about some of those things, so I found that really helpful.
Seth: So the water from the rock is the next little story here, and it really just dives deeper into the same type of disobedience that-
David: Right. The story kind of follows the same pattern
Seth: ... that they, that God just provided food, but not water yet. And so like, "Where's the water, God? Where's the water? Why, where's the water, Moses and Aaron?"
David: Right. Yeah, the people are grumbling. They come to Moses and Aaron, and then Moses and Aaron are like, "We're not the ones who [laughs] you should be grumbling against."
Seth: Why do you test the Lord?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then they strike a rock, and the, the same, the, and he, God actually tells them in verse five to take in your hand the staff with, which you struck the Nile, which made me think, does he have like, I always assume Moses has one staff. [laughs]
David: One staff. That's the only one he has. It's like he has this traveling, like, case.
Seth: But like, he's the leader of a whole people group, so he's probably got like his luxury staff, his walking staff-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and then his like, his like prodig- prodigious legendary staff that he parted the Nile with. [laughs]
David: Like, he's not gonna, he's not gonna walk with the staff that he parted the, the sea with. It's not gonna happen.
Seth: He's like, "All right, take that one out the shelf. That's the special one."
David: That's the one with you.
Seth: [laughs] And then God will be there with him at the rock of Horeb, and when he strikes the rock, water's gonna come out of it, and the people are gonna drink. Um, and he calls the place bitter because the people grumbled and complained, um, while they were there.
David: Yeah, we should probably also point out where they are. They're at Horeb, like you said, and this is the place, this is the same region, um, where God spoke to Moses and gave him his name, Yahweh, and this is also the place that God promised that he would return to and worship him. Like, they, they've, they're, they're, they're there. They're in the region of Horeb. This is where Mount Sinai is. Uh, so-
Seth: This is where God said, "I will be with you always."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the question that people are asking, will God w- be with us always?
David: It's like, "You're, you're literally there."
Seth: Right.
David: "Right now. Look around. In fact, the place you're gonna strike is where I promised I'd be with you." [laughs] Like, everything is pointing to the fact that I'm good, and I, I follow through on my promises. Yeah, that's really interesting. And, um, and so, uh, we mentioned Psalm 78 earlier. I wanna go back to it real quick because I mentioned that God, um, was angry with the people because of their disbelief and their disobedience and, um, you know, a- and let's see here if I can find it. It's, um, Psalm 78, uh, 15, um, and it says, "He split rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep. He made streams come out of the rock and caused waters to flow down like rivers." And then that same word, rock, um, which is, is, is this word that talked about God's provision, and like, he struck the rock. That's the rock that Moses struck, and water would come out of it. That same word is then used a few verses later to describe God himself, and that's in Psalm 78:35. "They remembered that God was their rock, the Most High God was their Redeemer." So it's almost as if like, I, I talked about how God was angry against sin, yet provided. Um, God had to kinda take that blow himself. We see here that, like, that's actually what's physically representing of what's taking place is this rock that was struck was God. God had to take this blow on himself in order to provide. He had to kinda swallow his own anger in order to act justly or kindly, I should say, to his people.
Seth: And Paul says the same thing, and the rock was Christ.
David: That rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4?
Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Strangely, the rock follows them.
David: Yeah, that I didn't realize that until recently.
Seth: But it makes sense, which, so this, this organization of story-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... so God provides bread, he provides quail, he provides water, and then he's about to provide victory in battle.
David: Right.
Seth: This happens before they go into the wilderness, and right before they're about to enter into the promised land at the end of the wilderness, God provides bread again, he provides meat again.
David: And then victory.
Seth: Provides water again.
David: Okay.
Seth: Victory again.
David: And that's against the Canaanites that time.
Seth: And that's against the Canaanites that time.
David: Right.
Seth: And so the idea is that God has provided for them from the beginning of their wandering to the end of their wandering, and that provision has followed them that entire time.
David: That's right.
Seth: And how did pr- how did it follow them? By God striking himself.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The rock was Christ.
David: It's crazy. Yeah. It's so funny. We, we, we have that, we have that image of, like, the cloud, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire leading them through the wilderness and everything like that, but then also there was, like, this-Rock too.
Seth: Do you think it was an actual rock following them?
David: I, I don't, I, I feel like it has to be. Like-
Seth: I've kind of assumed it was just lots of rocks.
David: I don't know. I feel like, like there's arc-
Seth: Archetypal rocks
David: ... archetypal [laughs] rocks at the end. I don't know. It's like, it seems like it was one rock. I mean, I don't know, like, uh, it, it just seems like it was from the story, that it's like they struck this rock, and then this rock followed them around. I mean, if you got a pillar of fire, you can have a floating rock.
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs] You don't like that.
Seth: I don't like that.
David: Why?
Seth: Because, well, there's no, no floating rock.
David: [laughs]
Seth: It's always a rock.
David: There's always a floating rock.
Seth: There's a rock that is struck-
David: Oh, my God
Seth: ... at two different intervals, and Moses is hidden in the cleft of another rock on Mount Sinai. So I feel like if I was interpreting the text out of my own [laughs] presuppositions, I would assume that throughout, like, th- it's, it's a symbolic following, that no matter where they went, the water from ro- the water from a rock was always available.
David: So it's called spiritual, so this is, the, the [laughs] argument we're having here is around 1 Corinthians 10:4, and this is talking about this very story we're, we're, we're mentioning here, and this is, "And they all drank the same spiritual drink," and that's the water that came from the rock, "for they drank from the spiritual rock"-
Seth: I win
David: ... "that followed them." That followed them.
Seth: Spiritual.
David: They drank from the same spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ. And we'll, we can talk more about that part later. Anyway, whether it was a floating rock, like I think [laughs]
Seth: No, it was not. It was not a floating rock
David: ... or the archetypal rock that probably is right-
Seth: Spiritual rock
David: ... that Seth was thinking, but, uh, it is pretty strange still that, like, wherever they went, there was this provision of water, um, through this rock, yeah.
Seth: W- the rock is always with them.
David: The rock is always with them.
Seth: Even when-
David: And not Dwayne Johnson, but [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: I, I had to. I'm sorry.
Seth: Rampage coming theater soon. [laughs]
David: Ra- oh, no. [laughs] It looks so bad. Oh, my goodness gracious. And so, yeah, and so the, the people are provided for again, um, at, at the great expense to God's own wrath against their disobedience. God withholds and is, is metaphorically struck in his own self, uh, but, and manifests that through the striking of this rock.
Seth: Yeah, and then-
David: And then Horeb
Seth: ... he continues to show them even more grace by providing them victory in battle-
David: Right
Seth: ... which at the same time is also kind of making their punishment all that more severe if they continue to disobey. Look how much grace I'm extending to you. I've not just provided meat, not just provided bread, not just provided water.
David: Mm.
Seth: Now I'm providing victory in battle. What, what will your response be?
David: Yeah. Oh, man. So yeah, so what you're talking about is they come upon the Amal- they come upon the-
Seth: Amalekites
David: ... Amalekites, and, um, they are called to fight them. So Moses, um, deputizes Joshua to go out and fight, and, um-
Seth: First time we hear about Joshua.
David: First time we hear about Joshua. He'll play a, he'll play a bigger role later. He gets his own book, which is always fun, you know. That's the crown jewel in anyone's life.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You, you get a book of the Bible, [laughs] very select club. Um, and, uh, and it's interesting. So, uh, we get this picture of Moses, um, and, and he has his arms up. He's on top of a hill. Now, we're not told that this hill is Horeb or Mount Sinai. I don't know.
Seth: It, it could be.
David: It could be. It could be. I mean, I, I mean, it seems like, okay, Israel needs to camp out around Sinai. They're already in Horeb.
Seth: Top of the hill.
David: The hill. I know. It's like, so maybe the Amalekites were kind of taking up the space around-
Seth: Well, actually, we're told it's Rephidim, so apparently-
David: But that, is that not in-
Seth: I don't know
David: ... oh, maybe. I don't know. We'd have to look at the geography.
Seth: I have no geography knowledge.
David: So, okay, let's just call it a hill then. It's just a hill. We'll go with a hill. And, but we get this weird image, um, that's weird to us anyway, of Moses lifting his arms up, and as long as his arms are up, the Israelites are winning the battle, but when they start to get tired and droop-
Seth: They start losing
David: ... they start losing the battle. And so you have two people come alongside him and hold up his arms so that they don't fall, and by s- by that, [laughs] by that way, they, they end up winning the battle. Um, but what we need to see here is that this isn't just some kind of symbol. Like, Moses isn't just, like, lifting his arms up, and that's it. Um, this is, this is, it, what, what's, what's the term? It's he's lifting his arms up and-
Seth: A hand upon the throne-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of the Lord.
David: Hand upon the throne of the Lord. So he's actually doing intercessory prayer here is what-
Seth: So how do we know that?
David: Um, this is what all the commentators say, that, that this was shorthand, like an idiomatic phrase in the Hebrew culture, um, for when your arms are raised and you're laying a hand upon the throne of the Lord, that is, you're interceding. You're beseeching the throne. You're coming at the feet of the king, and you're begging for him to act and move and bring victory in this specific case.
Seth: Right.
David: And so as long as Moses' hands are up, they're winning because he's interceding for the people. But when his intercession fails and he gets tired and he gets weak, then the battle starts to lose because it, the, the, the victory isn't in the hands of the people. It's in the hands of God, which is, again, going back to Moses, you know, the people saying like, "Hey, Moses, where's our food and where's our water?" And he's like, "Why are you asking me? [laughs] Everything comes from God." Yeah, so we get the same thing here in God's provision of victory. [gentle music]
Seth: So how do we get to Jesus from this sweeping story-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of grumbling and complaining?
David: Well, luckily, like we said at the beginning, like, we have lanes within which to drive because the Bible really does a great job of interpreting this for us. In fact, Jesus himself interprets this story about himself.
Seth: Because he performed the same miracle for 5,000 people in John 6.
David: Yeah, and, and before you jump into this, um, I want to say, like, this is, what we're gonna see here is that this kind of gives us a case study to validate this type of interpreting the Bible. It's like Jesus saw himself as the fulfillment of this obscure, you know, random provision of God for the people of, of Israel. He's like, "I," you know, he's gonna, you know, say like, "I am the bread."
Seth: This is about me.
David: This is about me. And so that's why we do this podcast because we believe that not only the bread and the water are about Jesus, we think everything is about Jesus 'cause Jesus thought everything was about Jesus, [laughs] right? So anyway.
Seth: Yes.
David: Take us there.
Seth: So parallels between what happened in Exodus 16:17 and what's happening in John 6.
David: Okay.
Seth: First, we, God gave the Israelites bread to test themAnd then, so we, verse 4:16, but then in John 6 we're told that Jesus provides manna for, uh, bread for the 5,000 in order to test His disciples.
David: Was it-
Seth: In verse six
David: ... what's He testing them for?
Seth: He says, "He said this to test them because He knew himself what He would do." And so in this text, we don't know quite yet.
David: Sure.
Seth: But if we read backwards, we know it's to show that He is the Lord.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: He is the one that's with them. He is the one that's providing. And then we're also told in verse seven that the purpose of that miracle was to see the glory of the Lord.
David: Right.
Seth: Right? To see God himself. And if you rewind a little bit in the Book of John, we're told that Jesus did this miracle of, like, turning water into wine, and he said, "This, the first of the signs Jesus did, and manifested His glory among them."
David: Mm.
Seth: So all these miracles throughout John are manifesting God's glory, showing God to His people.
David: Wow.
Seth: So already two parallels between this event and that event, and then in verse 18, once the bread has been provided, and Jesus provides bread, manna falls from the sky, and then Jesus magically, not magically [laughs]-
David: Super-
Seth: ... supernaturally by-
David: ... naturally. By the power of the Spirit of the living God
Seth: ... by the, magic. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: Shorthand magic.
David: That thing condemned by Paul, sorcery.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Sorcery. Jesus was not a magician. Anyway-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... He multiplies five loaves and two fish in the same way that God sent bread from heaven. And in verse 18 of Exodus, we're told, si- chapter 16 verse 18, that nobody had any lack. And then again-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... in John 6 we're told that everybody had as much as they wanted with 12 baskets of leftovers left over.
David: I mean, that's gotta take us back to the-
Seth: That's gotta take us back to-
David: ... children of Israel [laughs]
Seth: ... the children of Israel and God feeding all of them.
David: Yep.
Seth: So, like, this mir-... Like, Jesus is intentionally reappropriating this ancient story that at this point would've been 3,500 years old.
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: And said, "This is about me." And, and-
David: How, how does He go about saying that it's about Him?
Seth: And then fas- one more parallel.
David: Oh, one more parallel. We're not done yet.
Seth: And then fascinatingly, in the same way that the people of Israel grumble against the Lord after providing provision, the disciples start grumbling against the Lord. In verse 41, 52, 61, and in 66, a bunch of the disciples leave because they will not follow the Lord who provides.
David: Mm. What are some of their grumblings?
Seth: In, uh [laughs] John-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... they say that this, this phrase is too hard to bear, that, that it's teaching. Well-
David: Oh.
Seth: So-
David: We gotta go back, 'cause what teaching?
Seth: We gotta go back.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What teaching? So, like, you asked, like, well what, what is happening here?
David: Yeah.
Seth: So Jesus is saying that what happened in, um-
David: Exodus 15, 16 and 17, or 16 and 20
Seth: ... is being redone right here. In the same way that Moses was the deliverer of God's people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... by God's hand, I am now the deliverer of God's people. But more so than Moses, I am the bread himself. So God had to send manna himself-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... but now God's sending Himself. So in verse, uh, 32, Jesus said to them, well, what happened is a bunch of Jews come looking for Him after He multiplies the loaves.
David: Right.
Seth: And they're like, "We want more bread, we want more bread, we want more bread." And Jesus said, "I'm not here to, to, to dispense bread to you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "I'm here to do something a little bit better than that." And then he said, "Okay, well, our fathers did this great sign in the wilderness to prove that we should follow them, bring manna from heaven."
David: Right.
Seth: "So what are you gonna do to prove that you're from God?" And then Jesus corrects them. He said, "You know, it was not Moses who gave you the bread."
David: Right.
Seth: "But my Father gives the bread that's from heaven, because the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: So they're thinking in terms of bread and provision and water from rocks and quail, and God is saying, "Actually, the provision is a person. It is me. It is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." And they say, "Well, we want that."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then Jesus makes the statement, "I am the bread of life. Whoever eats of me shall never hunger, and whoever drinks of me shall never thirst." It's the spiritual food of-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of 1 Corinthians 10:3 and 4. God, like, Jesus is saying, "This is about me, and I will satisfy you if you eat me and drink me."
David: Okay.
Seth: And Jesus said it explicitly.
David: Okay, so, so we, we have who, how Jesus is the bread in, in the wilderness. Uh, I guess then would it be safe to say that we could view ourselves as those in the wilderness in need of the bread? Like, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: So we are exiles wandering around in the desert in need of some kind of sustenance, [laughs] and Jesus says, "What you need to, to provi- or to, to, uh, s- survive," is what I'm trying to say, "Is me. Like, I am, I am, I am the bread, and I'm always enough," right?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, "I'm always sufficient."
Seth: You have desperate needs every day, otherwise you'll starve.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: And I will be enough.
David: Wow.
Seth: That's so amazing. I will be enough. Eat me, drink me. And then they say, "That is a hard saying. Who can bear it?"
David: Yeah. And so from a, let, let's get, let's get nitty-gritty. So from a actual, uh, like, Christological, theological standpoint, what, what did Jesus mean when He says, like, um, "I am the bread of life. Come and eat me"? Like, what is He actually, for, for us 21st century people, what does, what does that apply to us today? What does that mean for us?
Seth: Verse 29, Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
David: Mm.
Seth: So throughout this whole passage, Jesus contrasts eating and drinking with believing and trusting.
David: Well, that makes sense, though, because we talked about how them not, them disobeying the law meant that they were going out into a field on Sabbath, and it was, it was empty. And, like, it was, like, God was angry at them whenever they disbelieved that He was gonna provide, and so that means belief meant they ate.
Seth: Right.
David: And they had their fill. So that makes, that kinda does make you're making-
Seth: Right. No, do, do you trust Jesus with your most felt needs-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and your most desperate-
David: Hunger
Seth: ... hunger.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like so-
David: And basic
Seth: ... to the extent of actual hunger.
David: Mm.
Seth: Do you trust Him with your deepest vulnerabilities? And if so, He will be your life.
David: Yeah. And I-
Seth: And, and-
David: Yeah, I love that
Seth: ... and that's hard.
David: That is hard.
Seth: Like, can you trust Jesus with your deepest vulnerabilities-
David: Mm
Seth: ... your deepest weaknesses, your most pressing needs?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Can you trust Him when you're $500 overdrawn?
David: Hmm.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, can you trust him when your kids don't have any more school supplies?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, that's the question he's asking, and that's why the Jews don't agree. That's why they walk away and say, "This is too hard of a saying."
David: Yeah, and probably because it was like, it's too hard of a saying that, that this man is claiming to be the eternal bread from heaven.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's also really hard. [laughs]
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, you're, you're saying that, like, this Messiah that we've been waiting for a long time and had a lot of wrong ideas about is here.
Seth: But even when God provided a physical thing, when he actually put-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... pan- bread in their pantries, that still wasn't enough for them to trust him.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so what does God do? Says, "Okay, what you don't, what you really never, you never needed things."
David: Hmm.
Seth: "You never needed more bread. You needed me."
David: Oh, yeah. That's good.
Seth: "And I will be with you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: What's, what's, what they test him with, right?
David: Right.
Seth: "Will you be with us?" He says, "I will be."
David: That's right. Oh, that's so good. Okay, so that's the bread, and he says, uh, "We'll never, y- we who eat of this bread will never hunger again and never thirst again."
Seth: Right.
David: So-
Seth: I think he's hinting at the second part of that story-
David: Right. He's like-
Seth: ... which is where they-
David: I have this whole story in mind. It's, it's, it's Exodus 16 and 17. It's both the, the manna from heaven and the water from the rock, and while he focuses more on, "I am the bread of life," we also know in John he talks about himself being the living water. You know, he says that to the-
Seth: John 4
David: ... John 4, right, the woman at the well, he says that to her, "If you drink this water, you'll never thirst again." She's like, "Well, give me this water always. That sounds awesome. I could not have to come to this freaking well all the time [laughs] and draw out water." And, uh, Jesus is like, "No, no, no. I'm talking about something different here. I'm talking about this spiritual water." And, um, what, what I want us to see here is we've mentioned, uh, Psalm 78 now twice. I'm gonna mention a third time, is that this, that, that God is this rock that was struck and provided water for the people in the wilderness. And then f- and then Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that, well, actually that rock was Christ. And, um, we see, y- you mentioned, um, I forgot to talk about this as we were going through, but you mentioned this manifestation of glory that accompanied the coming of the manna.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like before the manna comes, God shows up in glory, and, uh, most, most scholars, most evangelical scholars say that this was the pre-incarnate Christ, that the glory that's shown here was the glory of the, the one eternal Son of God manifesting his splendor to the people to show that this bread was not coming about by any other means than his own provision and grace and kindness and presence, that, that he was with them. And so w- what we have-
Seth: So he-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... a pre-incarnate cloud.
David: A pre-incarnate cloud. [laughs] He's incarnated as a cloud.
Seth: So, like, Je- like, the idea is we nor- we think of Jesus, a pre-incarnate Jesus, we m- maybe you haven't thought of that before, but normally I, when I hear that phrase, I'm thinking, like, a person's shape, like, whenever that person's in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
David: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Seth: But you're saying, like, that's not necessarily-- So God is not, doesn't have a physical form in that sense.
David: That's right.
Seth: But so he can, his glor- his power and his goodness and beauty-
David: Can be manifested through multiple different things.
Seth: I mean-
David: So I think, and th- those are called theophanies, whenever, whenever God makes himself, uh, you know, visible or, or accessible through one of the five senses, and that can be through, um, like, clouds and thunder like we see with Elijah on the mountain. It can, it can be through a pillar of cloud like we see here in the story. It can be, like, um, a passing by of a bright glory like we'll see with Moses and the cleft of the rock. It can be with a person with them, the, i- in with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace of Babylon. Like, it could be all of these things because since God wasn't, just since the, the second person of the Trinity wasn't limited to a physical body yet in the person of Jesus-
Seth: He can also be a rock
David: ... he can also be a floating rock.
Seth: [laughs]
David: A floating rock that follows them. Anyway, uh, what I wanna show here is that the glory of Christ that comes, um, and, and is with the people, uh, on Earth saying like, "I am the, the living water," he was ultimately the rock that was struck and, and provided ultimate provision, um, not through, uh, H2O, but through his blood that came out-
Seth: Hmm
David: ... the water and blood that came from his side. Like-
Seth: That's not just a medical procedure that happened there. Like-
David: Right
Seth: ... those are symbolically laden terms for John.
David: That's right, yeah. Water and blood comes out. Living water is the blood that comes out of Jesus' side, so that through him, because, like, um, like I said in, um, in Psalm 78, we have this, this, the, uh, Psalm 78:35, "They remembered that God was their rock. The Most High was their redeemer." What does it mean to say that Jesus is our rock? It's that Jesus is our redeemer. What does a redeemer do? He pays the price to buy us back. How did Jesus pay the price to buy us back, to reconcile us to the Father? With his blood. So how does he provide for us in our deepest needs? How does he satisfy our, our longings and our thirsts? He dies for us and gives himself and brings us back to the Father.
Seth: He's struck.
David: He is struck for us. That's right, yeah. Jesus is the rock in the wilderness. [upbeat music] All right, now let's, let's look lastly as we wrap up here at, um, the battle with the Amalekites. Amal, Amal-
Seth: Amalekites at Rephidim.
David: Oh, Ama- Amalekites at Rephidim.
Seth: Rephidim.
David: Yeah. Um, and, and so, uh, [laughs] let's start this with how not to interpret this text. We wanna do this every now and then because it's a lot of fun, and-
Seth: So-
David: ... we wanna show you that just because we believe everything's about Jesus, there are some bad ways to do Jesus interpretations of the Old Testament.
Seth: So the way we know this is about Jesus is because Moses, like Jesus, Moses goes on top of the hill, and as he's on the top of the hill, he stretches out his hands, which makes his body look like a cross. Jesus was hung on a cross. And then just like Jesus had two thieves on his side, two people on his side, Moses is surrounded by two people who lift up his hands in the cross, and as he does so, he announces victory over his enemies and over sin and death. No, bad Seth.
David: Wait, what? No. Um, this is not the way that the Bible would have us do it. This is, this is, this is called an illusion. This is, or, I'm sorry, not an illusion, an allegory. This is, this is taking a picture and kind of, and super, and like taking, you're taking two things out of context and saying that they match.
Seth: Taking one thing allegorically, one t- thing physically, and then laying them on top of each other. See, like, look, this totally makes sense.
David: Right.
Seth: When actually, what I'm really doing is taking one physical picture and taking another physical picture and laying them on top of each other. Look, these two, these three things look the same. You got a hill.
David: Yep.
Seth: You got a hand outstretched that kind of looks like a cross, and you got two people.
David: Right. And that's, yeah. And I think one of the, one of the litmus tests that you can do to say, "Am I being allegorical? Is this being irresponsible? Is, is this interpretation and application of Jesus failing?" Is, I would ask of, of what, this, you know, this straw man version of a bad interpretation. I would ask of it, "So what? Like, what does this mean to me? Like, what does this teach me? How does this help me treasure Jesus more and see His atoning work more clearly?" Well, it just doesn't. Like, it just doesn't.
Seth: Oh, that's coincidental.
David: It's coincidental. It, it's like, oh, cool. Like, the biggest thing I could get out of it is like, oh, God's been in control of all history. Like-
Seth: Which is a big thing
David: ... which is a big thing, but it's like, that's not the real way that we could go, Jesus-
Seth: You're not actually worshiping Jesus more
David: ... not worshiping Jesus because of this. So let's look at this and say, how does this show us Jesus in a responsible way that can actually do this heavy lifting of, of causing our hearts to worship and treasure Christ more?
Seth: I think you rewind a little bit to our conversation where like, this is a pa- there's parallel stories and parallel patterns. At the beginning of their wandering, at the end of their wandering, God provides water, He provides bread, He provides meat, and He provides victory in battle, and He does that before they go into exile and after. So, so part of the issue he, what we're seeing here is God is providing every possible type of need-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... for the Israelites.
David: Right.
Seth: So like, okay, so what's happening here is God is providing needs for His people. How is He doing that? He's doing that through prayer.
David: Right, through someone interceding.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Someone, someone-
Seth: Whose hand is on the throne of the Lord.
David: Right. Yeah, and so what we see in Moses is we see, well, we have this weak man who has to be propped up in order to continue his intercession, and any times his arms droop, the, the battle's failing, and like, our hope is lost, we're gonna be crushed. But in Jesus, we have an intercessor at the right hand of the Father, who Hebrews says is inter- interceding for us always. He never tires because He lives forever, and, and He sits at the right hand forever interceding for us. He never fails in His intercession. That means He's constantly advocating and interceding for our victory so that we never lose, we never fail. There is no condemnation, there is no battle lost, because Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, laying His hand on the throne, saying, "I win."
Seth: Because you can come to this passage and say, "Okay, man, look how important prayer is. If I just pray-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... the, the, the army's gonna be pushed back." But what happens? What happens when I can't pray anymore?
David: Right.
Seth: What if I don't have people holding my, my arms?
David: Right.
Seth: What if, like, I, I, I miss out? And the encouragement is that in Christ, there is one always praying, always interceding, always pushing back the enemy, and all you must do is believe.
David: That's right. And, and also, like, what happens when I pray and God says no, and I think He's abandoning me or betraying me?
Seth: His hand is still on the throne of the Lord.
David: Jesus, yeah, all God's promises are yes and amen in Christ, that Christ, Christ's a- advocacy for you and Christ's intercession for you never fails. Like, He never, ever fails to be true and say yes to His promises. He fulfills all of them.
Seth: So His hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
David: I, oh, that's beautiful.
Seth: Allegory.
David: Allegory. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: But still.
Seth: Yeah, it's like, Jesus, Christ's hands are steady. Like, God's hands are steady even till He gave up His own life.
David: Yeah.
Seth: His Son's own life was forfeit.
David: Right, or even, even like, um, behold, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age. This, this eschatological last day setting sun, Jesus' hand is steady on the throne until the last sun sets, until the sun is actually done away with. Jesus will be interceding for His people faithfully and without fail to the end of the age. [outro music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [outro music]
