Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right, everybody, welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Uh, this is a really exciting week, right, Seth?
Seth: Yes, we have a guest.
David: It is. Our first guest.
Seth: Our first guest.
David: We're very excited.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, we want to introduce you guys to Kristen Hatton.
Seth: Hatton.
David: Hatton. And she, uh, wrote this book called The Gospel-Centered Life in Exodus-
Seth: With four students
David: ... four students.
Seth: So-
David: So it's like, "Oh, there's this amazing woman who's written a book [laughs] seeing the gospel in all of Exodus. We gotta get her on the show."
Seth: That's amazing.
David: And so we got her on the show.
Seth: So, the book's with, uh, New Growth Press. Uh, when did it come out?
Kristen: It came out in July.
Seth: Okay.
David: She, Kristen I know each other through Rooted Ministry.
Seth: Oh, awesome.
David: So it's a gospel-centered youth ministry blog, and conference, and movement.
Seth: Movement.
David: Uh, yeah, it's very impressive.
Seth: When something's a movement, you know it's important.
David: You know it's godly. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: And so Kristen and I have known each other for a couple years now, and, uh, she lives here in Oklahoma City.
Seth: That's awesome.
David: Yeah, Kristen, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Kristen: Sure, yeah. So I live here. My husband is a pastor, and I have three, well, gosh, I have a, a young adult now, she's in college, and then I have two high school boys-
Seth: Oh, boy
Kristen: ... so I'm in the thick of parenting teens.
David: Yeah, I was a high school boy once. We're the worst.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: I hope yours are better than me.
Seth: Well, I mean, I was fine.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was a legalist, though.
David: That's right. Yeah.
Seth: I thought I was fine, but then I got to college and-
David: Your moralism kept you in line.
Seth: [laughs]
David: You weren't actually a good person.
Seth: I was a good person.
David: You were just terrified of God.
Seth: That's right. [laughs] And my parents.
David: And your parents. [laughs] Anyway-
Kristen: That's why we need gospel-centered resources, right?
David: Yes.
Kristen: To bring us into grace.
David: Kristen with the segue.
Seth: Yes.
David: There it is. That's right, we need gospel-centered resources.
Seth: What I really needed was a gospel-centered study on Exodus.
David: And here we are.
Seth: And here we are.
David: Thanks to Kristen Hatton and New Growth Press. Here we are.
Kristen: Thanks, guys.
David: So, um, we decided to bring you in, Kristen, on the easiest subject-
Kristen: [laughs]
David: ... ever in Exodus, which is the rules for the building of the tabernacle. [laughs]
Kristen: Yeah, that's my life topic. I mean, eight chapters or at least?
David: Yeah, it's insane. It's a lot. I think today we're gonna try to cover, um, now technically we left off in 23, so we're going to start a little bit in 24. If we don't cover it, we can come back if we really need to focus in.
Seth: That's great.
David: But 24 to 27, and then 30/31 because-
Seth: Right, we're skipping over the priestly garments because-
David: Which we'll get to next week
Seth: ... we're gonna come back next week and do that.
David: Yeah, so, um, I think one, one thing that's gonna be really helpful for us to try to first get our handles on, there's a lot of minutia going on here.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: There's a lot of, um, acacia wood poles, and golden loops, and fine twined linen. So much fine twined linen.
Seth: A lot of embroidery.
David: Lot of embroidery.
Seth: Cherubim.
David: Cherubim are everywhere. So there's a lot-
Seth: Calyxes
David: ... and, yeah, cal-
Seth: [laughs]
David: Which I did not know what that was.
Seth: I looked it up.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then everything was marijuana related. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: If you put in calyx in Google, it's just a whole bunch of pictures of marijuana.
David: Which is why we need more gospel-centered resources on the tabernacle, guys. We gotta speak up.
Seth: You put almond calyx-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... which is what, is like an almond, right? Anyway, this gets you closer.
David: There we go. So minutia.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Lots of minutia. Um, so I, and, and there's importance in all of those. None of that was accidental. Uh, I know, Kristen, you have, you've, you've had to, you've had to spend lots of time looking at those things and-
Kristen: Absolutely, all those details are so important, and we tend to just wanna read and skip right over it-
David: Mm-hmm
Kristen: ... because it seems like just, you know, trivial information. But it's so important that God, that we see God in those details.
David: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think what'll be really helpful is for us to care about the tabernacle first, and then I think that will give us a reason to kind of go into the tabernacle, the individual pieces.
Seth: Yeah, like what is the tabernacle in general, and then go into that.
David: Right. So, um, I don't know if there's a way to work through this text, like, kinda systematically if we're talking about the tabernacle as a whole. Um, is there? I don't know.
Seth: Well, the only thing that you could probably say is, like, what happens before we get to the actual commands-
David: Sure
Seth: ... about how to build it and the architecture of it. So God promises the conquest of Canaan, which we talked about last time.
David: Last week, yep.
Seth: And then Moses confirms the covenant with the people, and they all respond, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do." And then at the base of the mountain, Moses built this altar, and he reads the book of the covenant. And I was like, "Well, what, what is exactly the book of the covenant at this point? Is it just the Ten Commandments?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Is it the social laws? Is this, like, actually, like, fast-forward until after?" Anyway, I was trying to figure out, like, what's the book of the covenant at this point?
David: You always love the timeline question.
Seth: You know the timeline.
David: Kristen, do you have an opinion on this?
Kristen: Well, I do think it's very important that we remember that context, that God has given them the law, and now He's coming to build His tabernacle with them. And I, I think that we're gonna probably go that direction to see why you can't separate those out from each other. Um, it's, it's very important to see that the law was not conditional on their behavior.
David: Mm.
Kristen: That He was coming to indwell with them, um, because He had made them His children, His people, and so it wasn't, their obedience was not, um, resulting in their actions.
David: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Seth: Right, so the idea is not that, like, God is trying to put so many barriers up to getting to Him. The reason there's an outer court, and an inner court, and a Holy of Holies, and laws beforehand isn't to keep people away from the presence of God, but to show people how to properly enter into a relationship with God.
David: Mm.
Seth: It's like there's a theology of architecture happening right here, and even of, like, narrative. And that's not to say, "Stay away from God. He's, He's, He doesn't want you."
David: Mm.
Seth: It's that, "God wants you close to Him. Here's how you enter into His presence."
David: That's interesting. I, yeah, I don't know y- y- I don't, I don't know if I've ever thought about this like the, the ratification of the law and then the tabernacle as like this literary cohesive idea or a theologically cohesive idea. I know, Kristen, can you help maybe explain why it's important that we, like go into a little more detail, you kinda scratched the surface for us a little bit, if there is a little bit more detail, of like why is it important that they all said, "Everything the Lord has spoken, we will do. Here's the book of the law. Now let's talk about the tabernacle."
Kristen: Right. Well, it was just his confirmation that he is coming to indwell with them in the middle of them, and the tabernacle is located in the center. I mean, it is central to all of our life. Um, Jesus is central to all of our life, and so he is saying, "I am coming here to be with you. Um, I'm not gonna leave you." So they're saying, "Yes, we're gonna obey everything that you've said." We know, and he knew, that that is impossible apart from him.
David: Mm.
Kristen: But that is not contingent on his being with them. He's going to be with them no matter what.
Seth: Yeah, even if they disobeyed, like, there's... It's in, uh, one of the other books of the Bible. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Kristen: [laughs]
Seth: It's in Joshua, right? Where like they set up like the, the, the, uh, the Holy of Holies is in the middle, the tabernacle's in the middle, and the Levites are in a concentric circle around that, and the next one's this concentric circle around that, and all the nations of Israel live in concentric circles out-
David: Numbers sets that up
Seth: ... Is that what Num-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... That's the book of the Bible that I'm thinking of.
David: Yeah. Yeah, that's the-
Kristen: [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... that's the book of the Bible. [laughs]
Seth: It's like, yeah, like even in disobedience, the center of civilization, or civilization, or society for Israel-
David: Right
Seth: ... is God's presence.
David: And does that also tell us something about the nature of the law, like why we have the law? Is it because like, "Okay, here's the law. Now here's the, here's the what, here's the why," and the why is, "Now I'm present," that God's presence is what the law is all about, like, "This is so you can live with me." A- and is that God saying like, "Now let's, let's-
Seth: Right
David: ... make this location where we can live together"? Is that what's tying these together, is like the law is the what and the... Am I o- way off course here?
Kristen: Right. Well, he gave the people his law because he's already made them his people.
David: Mm.
Kristen: So now he's saying how you can reflect your love to me. Um, his love towards us is that he is with us, and he's going to be with them in the tabernacle, and now he wants them to see how they can center their lives around him. And so the tabernacle is central to everything they do. And even, I mean, as we get into the details of the tabernacle, I mean, just imagine the smell. I mean, you're having-
David: Mm
Kristen: ... constant sacrifices.
David: Yeah.
Kristen: And so, I mean, you can't escape just this constant that... I mean, just imagining the Israelites all living around there, you can't ever escape, um, the sights and the sounds and the smells that are, that are going on. It's central. It's a constant reminding them of Jesus is central, um, well, God is central, but we're gonna see how Jesus is-
David: [laughs]
Seth: God, they're used, they're, they're used to this trick by now, yeah. [laughs]
Kristen: [laughs]
David: I heard there's like three in one.
Seth: Yeah, there's one more.
Kristen: That's right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: There's one more.
David: Okay.
Kristen: We're gonna see how it all points to Jesus.
David: Right. So the centrality of the, of the tabernacle here. Okay, so the, so they ratify the, the law. He reads from this book of the covenant, uh, which question, which Seth still has questions about, but [laughs] um, and then, then they take up this contribution from the people of, like, gold and silver and bronze and blue and purple and scarlet yarns, and, yarns, and, uh, fine twined linen, goats hair, all this stuff.
Seth: All the-
David: All the things
Seth: ... all the linen.
David: Uh, and like, i- it's important to say, where do they get this from, all this stuff?
Seth: Egypt.
David: Yeah, Egypt. And it's not s- uh, uh, it's not something they earned, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's something that was given to them, right?
Kristen: Right. I mean, yeah, they got it. God gave, God gave it to them when they left Egypt.
David: Yeah, which is crazy.
Seth: And what's like all, that what was used to celebrate idols is now being s- used-
David: Oh, that's cool
Seth: ... in service to the living God.
David: Wow.
Seth: Like, these w- these were in service to dead, dead gods, and the ones God had defeated, but he's using those things to, like-
David: Build a house of the living God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Wow.
Kristen: So all these details-
David: Right
Kristen: ... they're not random. I mean, they are very specific and, a- and even in how he describes all these, you know, the colors and the dimensions and the materials, I mean, isn't it so clear that God is in these details? I mean, he prescribes it exactly how he wants it to be, and I think it's, it's telling of how he prescribes how he wants us to worship him.
David: Mm.
Seth: With, like, detail, with care, with, like... Is that what you're saying?
David: Excellence, beauty, those kinds of things.
Kristen: Yes. I mean, he's not saying, "You can just worship me however you want."
David: Oh, I see.
Kristen: "This is how, you know, he, it's, it's symbolic of how I want you to worship me." He's showing, he's showing them through the details that-
Seth: Isn't it in Exodus, he talks about he, like, for glory and beauty?
David: Yes, that's, that's actually coming up in the priestly garments. And so the reason why the, um, priests, like, went to such lengths to, like, um, do all these crazy things for their chest piece and all this stuff, God says it's for glory and for beauty. Yeah. So, like, yes, it's f- to, like, go like, "Oh, that's, God is, God is so holy, so separate, we must enter into him on his terms." But it's also like, these are beautiful things. Like, they were made-
Seth: And like-
David: ... for beauty
Seth: ... and, like, we are supposed to, like, make beautiful things to image the one that is most beautiful, right?
David: Right. Yep.
Seth: Like, these are like, these are reflections of who-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... God is.
David: God cares about beauty, and o- obviously, he's, like, entering in as, like, architecture here and interior designer and, um, yeah-
Seth: Right
David: ... seamstress and, like, [laughs] all these things.
Seth: Which, like, sh- should, like, redeem for us, like, secular occupation, like what, what we call secular occupation.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, God has use for interior designers and metalworkers and architects in his heavenly culture. Sometimes we think, like, godly, godly occupations are being a pastor and-
David: Oh, right. Yeah
Seth: ... being a social worker or living as a missionary somewhere. But, like, no, God has redemptive purposes for all culture-creating, like oc- like, occupations and things.
Kristen: Yes, absolutely. I mean, we bring glory to him in how we create and what we do. And so, yes, in every profession, it, I mean, we can bring glory to him and by doing it to, um, the best. And I mean, I love the details and, and to think that, um, how it, it reflects him.
David: So Kristen, what exi- So, like, okay, so we're in... Moses goes up on the mountain
Seth: Um, multiple times actually-
David: Yep
Seth: ... he goes up with the elders, and then he goes up even further on the mountain by himself, and he has a meal with God at a sapphire feet, and-
David: It's pretty cool. [laughs]
Seth: Which is pretty cool. And then after that, he goes up with Joshua for six days.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then he gets called up even further in, like, a ball of fire, and then he's up there for 40 days. And after his time on the mountain for 40 days, he comes off the mountain and gives the directions for the tabernacle, what it's supposed to look like, its dimensions, its architecture, everything else. And that's where we get most of these details and all these kind of stuff. So maybe the best thing to do here is say, okay, God's in the details, that's important, but what is a tabernacle? Right, so we, we wanna answer the question, what is a tabernacle? We wanna zoom out, answer that question, 'cause for me, I mean, growing up as a Baptist kid going to summer camp- Oh, yeah
David: ... I thought the tabernacle was the place you went to, uh, like, worship and go forward on Friday night. That's-
Seth: Like, so not just a sanctuary, but you had a tabernacle.
David: They call, we literally called it the tabernacle, 'cause, like, it started out as a tent.
Seth: N- like a real tent.
David: Like, a real giant, like s- like not circus tent, but that kind of scale, you know?
Seth: [laughs]
David: And then, like, but then they put, like, a metal tin roof on it, but they kept the name, so even though it wasn't a tent anymore, they still called it the tabernacle.
Seth: That's amazing.
David: And so it's like, "Where are we going?" "Oh, we're going to the tabernacle." And so anyway, so that's what-
Seth: [laughs]
David: When I read this in the Bible, I was like, "Oh, they had one of these, but nothing like the one I grew up around."
Seth: [laughs]
David: So Kristen, what, what in the world is a tabernacle?
Kristen: Right. Well, it is in a s- sense a tent, because it is not a permanent structure.
David: Right.
Kristen: So I mean, it's a tent that's going with them so that God can dwell with them along the journey. I mean, it, it, like, blows my mind to think about all these inner details of the tabernacle, to, like, how does that all fit in a tent?
David: [laughs]
Kristen: Because, you know, what we picture what a tent is, so that's crazy. But, um-
Seth: Yeah, like, I think of a tent and it's like, oh, like I can fit in there, and I can't stand up properly-
David: Right
Seth: ... and 'cause I'm over six foot tall, and it's really uncomfortable, and I'm cold all the time.
David: Oh my gosh. [laughs]
David: But yeah, then you read the book of Numbers and it's like you have, okay, this part of the tribe of Levites, you guys do the tent pegs, and this part of the, the tribe of Levite, you guys grab the candlesticks, and like, it like, it's like this detailed list of how on earth are you gonna carry this massive structure from one place to another?
Kristen: Right.
David: So you keep going, like that, that-
Kristen: To pick it up and set it up, and then-
David: It's a whole thing
Kristen: ... you've got the Holy of Holies in the courtyard, in the camp. I mean, it's like there's so much in that tent, I can't even imagine. But ultimately, I mean, the tabernacle is where God comes to dwell with his people, and we're gonna see how, um, it reflects Jesus as the true tabernacle, um, through all these details.
Seth: And God's presence, like his like...
David: So the whole point of the tabernacle is that this is where God dwells, right? That it-
Kristen: Right.
David: Okay.
Seth: Right. This is where you meet God.
David: Right.
Seth: This is where you, you-
David: Is there a, is there a parallel to this in, like, the ancient Near East culture that they were around? Like, was this something that everybody had? I mean, they had temples, but would it be very different for them to have a movable structure? Is that, I mean, I, I didn't even, I didn't even think to look up this question, but-
Kristen: That is a good question.
David: But it's like, I think what's, what's cool about the fact that it's movable is, like, is this, is this part of it is, like, the movable structure of the tabernacle seems to me to be a fulfillment of some of the promises that he, that God made to, um, Moses in Exodus 3. He said, "I'll be with you," right?
Seth: Right.
David: So, like, the tabernacle, I'm gonna be with you, and, and he said, "And I'm gonna bring you into the land that I promised to your fathers." So it's like, well, I can't just be with you here on this mountain and then go away, because this mountain's not movable, right? So I gotta put myself into a movable structure-
Seth: Right
David: ... so we can, I can be with you as we go to where I've promised to take you.
Seth: We do know it's different from the surrounding relig- religions in the specificity of the structure.
David: Really?
Seth: And, well, yeah, because in, in all the other surrounding religions, you don't have a covenant or a law relationship.
David: Oh, I see.
Seth: So, like, in all the, in the ancient Near Eastern religions, the Hebrew people are the only people who consider their relationship with God to be covenantal-
David: Mm
Seth: ... where God has said, "Here's how I want you to obey me, and here's how I will respond to you." So all the other gods were capricious. You didn't know what they, they, whether or not they would accept your sacrifice.
David: You're making it up as you go.
Seth: You kind of make it up as you go, and you're always a little worried that you're out of step. So the fact that the Lord has said, "Here's sp- specifically how I want to be worshiped. Here's specifically what my, my tabernacle will be like," is, is pr- is a huge development on ancient Near East religion in general. And more than that, the fact that it can move is also profound.
David: Right.
Seth: Because all the other gods of the surrounding nations were location-based.
David: Right. Geography gods.
Seth: So much so, like in Naaman, in the Book of Naaman. What's the, what is it? [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I'm bad on my Bible names today. In Kings, when Naaman, uh, gets healed in the river-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you know what he does? He takes a whole bunch of earth and brings it back with him to his kingdom because he thinks the god's in the earth.
David: Oh my gosh.
Seth: And so what's happening here is, like, the fact that the tabernacle can move says, no, God is the Lord of all the earth.
David: Oh, and then is that like, like that, that was part of God's original plan for the world, for his glory to cover the earth. So is that what we're seeing here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... is, like, a little, a hint of that? Is, like, God's presence, his glory filling the tabernacle, and it moves, is like, "My glory's gonna cover the earth" as Habakkuk says later, "as water covers the sea."
Seth: Yeah, you can go nowhere where the Lord's presence will not go with you.
David: That's cool. I'm getting excited.
Kristen: Well, I think it's also interesting, the Greek verb to tent-
David: Mm
Kristen: ... it resembles the Hebrew word shekinah, which is to describe God's glory.
David: Oh.
Kristen: So I don't know if we wanna get into John-
David: Let's get into that. Let's get into that.
Kristen: But, I mean-
David: Got me excited. [laughs]
Kristen: "The word became flesh and dwelt among us."
David: So that's John 1, right? Okay.
Kristen: John 1:14, right, and so the Greek derivative of that word dwelt, dwelt among us, is related to pitching a tent. And so then we, you know, I said tent resembles shekinah, God's glory. Um, so what John is telling us upon Jesus's arrival is the word became flesh and tabernacled among us. So Jesus is the shekinah glory that filled the tabernacle in Exodus 40. So what the Israelites have is, is just a shadow or a copy.
David: Mm.
Kristen: We learn that in Hebrews 8.
David: Yeah.
Kristen: Um, that all of this, what they have is what we see in full through Jesus.
David: Right.
Kristen: They had a copy of that um-
Seth: So we see this, we see this moving temple which says God is, God’s glory will go out to the entire world.
David: Right.
Seth: We see Jesus, God's cl- glory coming to live in a particular person, who then fills up His followers with His Spirit, with His glory. So like-
David: So, uh, so now, now we're little tabernacles.
Seth: Now we're little tabernacles, and how does God's glory spread over the face of the, the, the sea, like over the face of the world?
David: Over the face of the world, through us.
Seth: It's like what? It's like by us walking around.
David: Wow.
Seth: By Christians going into each nation of the world, you become the embodiment of the temple that moved, and prove to all the other surrounding nations that your gods might be location-based, but the God, the God I serve walks with me.
David: Wow.
Seth: And like, I will go and will spread the gospel.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so here's the question, how do we get that?
David: How, oh.
Seth: How do we get to being temples that move around? It's because Jesus is the curtain that was ripped in two.
David: Mm.
Seth: There was this curtain that separated the Holy of Holies where God's presence was from the rest of the people, not as a way to keep God away, but in order to, like, make sure that we had access properly to, not, to come. And so how do we get access properly?
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: By Jesus being ripped in two for us.
David: Right.
Seth: He's the one that makes it possible that we can be in a relationship with God's glory and presence, and spread it throughout the world without being harmed by the power of God.
David: Mm. So God made, or Jesus, through Jesus' death, you're saying He, He made a way, 'cause like we, we see in the Gospels that after Jesus died, this veil is torn in two, God's, which is signifying to us that God's glory can now come out to us.
Seth: Yes.
David: And so that's how we are filled as little tabernacles.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah, okay.
Kristen: And He was that ultimate sacrifice, so now there's no longer a need for all these animal sacrifices that take place in the tabernacle that, um, or the priest that, that goes in for the people. Now we have access to Jesus on our own.
David: Yeah, amazing. Um, and then, and then since we're doing a, a zoom out, I'll just, I'll finish the zoom out, and then we can zoom into the particular parts of the tabernacle. So we have, uh, you have this o- initial tabernacle, I'm, I'm with you, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk with you to deliver you to My promised land, and as we do this, My glory's gonna cover the Earth. Uh, Jesus comes a- and, uh, and, and Yahweh tabernacles in a human body.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And, um, He makes a way for, uh, He fulfills the tabernacle by doing all of the rituals, and rites, and sacrifices, um, that were supposed to take place in there, Jesus does perfectly. And in His final death, which is the final act, uh, that, that consummates all the works of the tabernacle, the veil is torn, and the Shekinah glory of God comes out into the world to indwell His believers as little tabernacles-
Seth: Right
David: ... that then do what Jesus did, go and bring the kingdom, the presence of God to the world. And then finally what will happen is the, the glory of God in Jesus Christ will come and, and tabernacle the whole world.
Seth: Right.
David: And the whole world will be His tent, right?
Seth: Right, and we also get that in this text, too.
David: What?
Seth: Yeah.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Because this is like, so the tabernacle is supposed to be like a mini picture of the Garden of Eden.
David: Yes.
Kristen: Yes.
Seth: So, so you both said yes.
David: We did.
Kristen: [laughs]
Seth: So you should tell me why. [laughs]
David: Oh, okay, yeah.
Seth: Well, 'cause we already talked about the chalices. So we got the chalices.
David: The chalices. Okay, so, so we went to the end, now let's go back to the beginning-
Seth: Yeah, yeah
David: ... is what we're doing here. Okay. Kristen, do you wanna talk about Garden of Eden and why it's about the tabernacle?
Kristen: Well, in the Garden of Eden, everything was in right relationship with each other.
David: Yeah.
Kristen: I mean, everything was in right relationship with God, and Adam and Eve with each other, and all of crea- we were given the creation mandate, so we were over all of creation.
David: Yeah.
Kristen: And then, you know, the fall happens and it's all topsy-turvy, but what we see in the tabernacle is just this right relationship of everything centralizing around-
Seth: Yeah
Kristen: ... Christ.
Seth: I didn't even think about that, just like the details and the perfect, like, symmetry of-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... the architecture actually re- like reflects the Garden of Eden-
David: Mm
Seth: ... just by its, by its design.
David: Right. Right, and the Garden of Eden is the place where, like, God walked in the cool of the day, and could-
Seth: Right
David: ... commune with His people, and that's what we're trying to get back to here. I mean, the story of, of Genesis, if you kind of trace it out, is f- moving, moving farther and farther away from God, East of Eden, east, east, east, moving east. And then now we're back, and there's a new entrance into the Garden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... into the presence of God. And what do we find, um, that's guarding the presence of God in the Holy of Holies? It's the same thing that was guarding the entrance to Eden. It was a cherubim-
Seth: A cherubim
David: ... with a flashing sword.
Kristen: Mm.
David: And then in the Holy of Holies, we have cherubim around the mercy seat of God, where He would, said He would meet with the priest, and it's like, "Oh, this is Eden again."
Seth: Yeah, this is exactly right.
David: And, and we talked about, um, you talked about the covenant of, of creation, the covenant of care-
Kristen: Right
David: ... where, um, Adam and Eve are to tend the garden, to work it, to cultivate it. And those same Hebrew verbs we see for like tending and caring are the same ones used, uh, to say what the priests are supposed to be doing in the tent. They're supposed to care for the tent, work in the tent. It's that same language.
Seth: Right.
David: So, uh, we're, it, it's amazing. This is the new Garden of Eden.
Seth: So you have, so you have a tabernacle with an entrance facing east-
David: Yep
Seth: ... just like the Garden of Eden.
David: Just like the Garden of Eden.
Seth: You have cherubim guarding it, just like the Garden of Eden. You even have in the tapestry itself, like, flowers-
David: Right
Seth: ... and images of, like, plant life. You have the tree of life, which is the lampstand.
David: The lampstand.
Seth: And it's described-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... as if it was a tree.
David: Right.
Seth: You also have the tree of knowledge, because you have the law.
David: The law.
Seth: You have the law. And then you have God dwelling with His people-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in the tabernacle, just like He did in the Garden of Eden.
David: Yeah, and like everything's gold, you know?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, it, it's, it's no coincidence that these rivers that run through Eden, that we're told in, uh, Genesis 2, I think 4 and 5 and 3 and 4-
Seth: I never though about that.
David: ... are full of gold.
Seth: That's right.
Kristen: Mm. Wow.
David: And it's like, and now everything's covered in gold. And it's like, "This is Eden."
Seth: This is Eden.
David: [laughs] Yeah.I didn't think about that one.
Kristen: Wow.
David: [laughs]
Kristen: I mean, it's just amazing to see how all of scripture relates to each other.
David: All of it, yeah.
Seth: And this mini picture of Eden is what Jesus brings with him. This is what he's bringing on the inside of us.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: It's what we're spreading to the entire world, and it's what God will bring down in the heaven of the last day.
David: And what are the, and what, what's, that's the right relationship, right? With, with, with creation, with one another, with him. It's dwelling with God forever, right? It's beholding his glory.
Seth: It's perfect life.
David: Perfect life.
Seth: Perfect knowledge of his will and his ways.
David: Mm.
Kristen: And having his presence with us and in us, and-
David: That's it, yeah. That's the goal. That's all of it right there.
Kristen: Like, I mean.
Seth: Yeah. So the question that, like, a lot of us have to ask ourselves then when we think of this, like, okay, we can get really excited about the new heaven come to Earth.
David: Mm.
Seth: Getting all a right relationship with creation, a right relationship with one another, like the riches of a world put right, but one of the questions that, uh, our pastor puts to us, he says, um, "What if you had everything?"
David: Right.
Seth: "What if you had all the benefits that God could give you, perfect health, perfect life, perfect relationships with one another, but God wasn't there?"
David: Right.
Seth: "Would that be enough?"
David: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: Mm.
Seth: And I'm like, "Oh." [laughs] That's like-
David: Do I want, do I want heaven or do I want God?
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And the tabernacle helps us, like, ask that question.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because, like, do you want Eden-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or do you want what's behind the Holy of Holies that Christ-
David: Yes
Seth: ... has been torn in two for?
David: Mm.
Kristen: Mm. [music]
David: Okay, so, um, now we wanna try to get into the details, and you know, Seth-
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: ... they, they, they say that the devil is in the details.
Seth: Oh.
David: But, but we're, but we're gonna find Jesus in the details. [laughs]
Seth: You, you are so right.
David: And no, the, Kristen, I, I apologize for that one. That's bad.
Kristen: Oh, no. You're good.
David: That's bad. We're be- we're better than that. [laughs]
Kristen: Hey.
Seth: We're, we're finding that Dave and I's dynamic doesn't necessarily work well with other people. [laughs]
David: It does not play well with others.
Seth: We, like, want to invite other people in, but like, oh, we're pretty awkward. [laughs]
David: [laughs] We're really awkward.
Seth: So leaning into that.
David: Details.
Seth: Detail.
David: Let's start where the text starts. The first detail we see then is the Ark of the Covenant.
Seth: And that is essentially God's throne.
David: Why do you say that?
Seth: Well, because more broadly-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... the tabernacle is actually, like, the palace-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... for the divine king. He's enthroned on the Ark of the Covenant. He's in the innermost chamber, and his royalty's, like, symbolized by the purple and the curtains-
David: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... and the blue.
David: That's good.
Seth: Uh-
David: All the gold
Seth: ... and all the gold, and is, and the way that the, even the, the materials it's made out of, you have gold in the innermost chambers, silver in the next, and then bronze on the outside.
David: Right.
Seth: So as you move towards the Holy of Holies, you get more and more regal as you-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... move in. So this is, like, God's throne room.
David: Is the, is this the, um, is the mercy seat something different than this?
Seth: It is the same thing.
David: Is it?
Kristen: It is, and I would even add that the Ark's lid was an atonement cover that symbolizes how through sacrifice-
David: Tell us more about atonement cover.
Seth: Yeah.
Kristen: [laughs]
David: Tell me about the cover. I, like, I got excited.
Seth: Mercy seat and atonement cover.
David: We need to unpack this.
Kristen: Well, God covered his people's failure, so that is the, um, symbolism in this cover. Like, we're covered by Jesus's sacrifice. Um, so we see that in the Ark's lid, that, um, even though the people are going to fail to keep his commandments, as we all do, um, we're covered.
David: So 'cause they would take the, once, it was just the Day of Atonement-
Seth: Oh, yeah
David: ... which we'll get to in Leviticus. But, um, once a year, they would bring the blood into the Holy of Holies, and they would put it on God's throne-
Seth: Right
David: ... on this Ark of the Covenant. A- and so that's, that's the, that's the lid, right? And so you're saying, like, that's a picture that just as this lid covers up, um, you know, what's inside of it, which is the law that we constantly break, you know, and everything like that, that Go- uh, what's over it, God's presence in which we can't dwell in our sin. The blood comes and covers it up, and in that same way, it's like a, we have a lid over us. We have a covering over us, and it's this, this sacrifice that's made.
Seth: Yeah.
Kristen: Yeah.
David: I mean, I never thought about the lid. I never, I never, I never knew the lid was important to the Ark of the Covenant.
Kristen: It's all important, all those details.
Seth: It makes, it makes mercy seat make a little bit more sense, too. Like, mercy seat.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Such a strange phrase.
David: It is.
Seth: But like, what that means is, like, your sins are covered.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Like, you can come into my presence because they've been covered for by a sacrifice.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They've been covered. They've been atoned for. They've been taken care of.
David: And isn't this the, isn't this where we get, isn't this where the word hilasmos comes from?
Kristen: Ooh, that's a big word.
David: Is- isn't that right, though?
Seth: The atoning sacrifice.
David: The atoning sacrifice, the Greek word for atoning sacri- or propitiation-
Kristen: Oh, propitiation. Okay
David: ... for the King James fans out there. Uh, yeah, like, this is like-
Seth: I don't know hilasmos
David: ... we have an advocate for the, before the Fa- like 1 John talks about this stuff. It's propitiation. The hilasmos, I think, i- in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible. Let's not get everyone confused, but basically what we're trying to say here, believe me or not, with the grammatical threads I'm trying to go, but I, I know that there is a connection between the word hilasmos and this mercy seat that we're talking about. So it's like Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, right, that covers us.
Kristen: Right.
David: Yeah?
Kristen: Yes.
David: Okay. So-
Seth: Yeah, that's Romans 3. Uh, Romans 3:25, it talks about that exact thing. So mercy seat, atonement cover is referenced in Romans 3:25.
David: Oh.
Seth: It's like this is the way in which we're saved, that Jesus covers us.
David: Amazing. Yeah. And no one can see this, but Seth was, like, rifling through multiple books.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And then, and then he's like, "Ah, ha, Romans. There's Romans. I found it."
Seth: [laughs]
David: So yeah, that's great. Okay. That's good. So we're not crazy. That, that's exciting
Seth: His grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood to be received by faith. Um, this was to show God's righteousness because in His divine forbearance, He passed over former sins. And the word propitiation here is the same word used here to describe the mercy seat.
David: Right.
Seth: And so again, I think one of the things important, whenever I read the Old Testament, I'm always quick to assume, like, a bloodthirsty God wanting to-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, drink blood on His throne. But like, no, like, He is providing a way for us to interact with Him despite what we deserve.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, kings don't have to interact with their pe- the peasants.
David: No.
Seth: But the Lord is providing a way to always interact with the people that He's created and that He loves. It's a seat of mercy.
David: Yes.
Seth: It's a seat of hearing.
David: Right.
David: And, and ultimately, it's like we can't see a bloodthirsty God who is just like all the other pagan gods when we know that all of these sacrifices that will, th- whose blood will be poured on this mercy seat cover, um, point to Jesus, that ultimately it's not just, "Well, give me all your, your sheep and your pigeons, and, like, that's what I want." It's like, no, all this is a picture of the self-substituting God who is to come, that it will be His blood that is shed. And so it's like whenever we, whenever we ... If you're ever, like, really thrown for a loop by all this blood, just remember, like, this is all a picture of God's blood.
Seth: Right.
Kristen: And how cool that He was the sacrifice and the priest.
David: Oh, yeah.
Kristen: He was both roles.
David: So amazing.
Seth: He's the sacrifice. He's the priest. He's the tabernacle. He's the curtain.
David: He's the, He's the c- that's the mercy seat itself.
Seth: He's the mercy seat itself. [laughs]
David: He's all of it.
Seth: He's the curtain that's torn in two.
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: Like, He's-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... He's everything.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Kristen: And then taking it out to the holy place, I mean, He's the bread.
David: Yeah.
Kristen: He's the life.
David: Let's talk, let's talk about the table of bread. So that's next, the, the, the table for bread. What, what is going on here? The show bread, is that what it's called?
Seth: Yeah, I don't know anything about the show bread.
David: [laughs]
Seth: I feel like I don't know anything about the show bread.
David: Kristin, tell us about the show bread.
Seth: Why do you have the show bread?
Kristen: Well, ultimately, Jesus is the bread of life.
David: Right.
Kristen: I think it's interesting they kept the bread fresh always. I mean, it was not-
David: Just a per-
Kristen: ... just stale bread
David: ... perpetual baker.
Kristen: Perp- yeah, yeah, somebody's doing that.
Seth: Was it manna?
David: I don't think so. No. Well-
Kristen: Yeah, they never call it that, but-
David: I don't think it was manna
Seth: ... well, where did they get the grain from if they're in the wilderness for 40 years?
David: Oh, man. Oh, man.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I don't know. Maybe it was manna.
Kristen: I mean, it definitely relates. I mean-
David: That's a good question
Kristen: ... yeah, that's a good question.
Seth: Well, if it is the manna-
David: Uh-huh
Seth: ... Jesus literally says, "I am the bread."
David: "I am the bread."
Kristen: "I am the bread of life."
David: That came down from heaven.
Seth: That came down from heaven. So, like, He's referencing the manna already.
David: Mm.
Seth: And so is that also the manna that's in the presence of the Lord?
David: Oh, my goodness. That's amazing.
Kristen: And it's always there, and then that, that lampstand that is in that same room, I mean, that light never stops burning.
David: Right. So He said, "I'm the light of the world."
Kristen: Right.
David: Right.
Seth: Oh, are all these references to the tabernacle? [laughs]
David: I think, I think they might be. I mean, it's, I mean, it's amazing. And like, He, you know, like Israel was supposed to be this light. You know, it's like God would go out in this pillar of fire and this pillar of cloud and, like, light up the dark for them. Like, and then that's happening inside, too, in this lampstand. And Jesus says, like, "That light that led you around the world, that showed the world my, my glory, the light inside that continually illuminated, um, the place where I was dwelling, like, I'm that. I am the thing that the world sees and, and, and reflects the glory of God, and I am also the thing that lights up the court where you can meet with God. I am the light of the world." I don't know. I mean, it's, that's crazy.
Kristen: And one more.
David: And one more.
Kristen: The altar of incense is also in there, and that points to Jesus' life and death as a pleasing aroma-
David: Mm
Kristen: ... that rises up to God's throne and intercedes with the Father on our behalf.
David: Right.
Kristen: So we see Him in that, in the altar of incense too.
David: And, and there's a, in one of the New Testament epistles, we're called a pleasing aroma. Like, we carry the bo-
Kristen: Yes.
David: We carry the death of Christ with us always, and to some it's the aroma of life, to some it's the aroma of death. And it's like, so I think that, that's a definitely, if you wanna call it a proof text for, like, Jesus is this, or this sa- this sacrifice always going up to the Father. He is the altar of incense who's always putting forth this aroma that is life to us. Seth, you are looking, like, overwhelmed.
Seth: No, I'm thinking about, like, this is, like, God's house.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So the, the tabernacle is, like, His presence. It's His kingly throne room. It's all these things, but I'm also just thinking of it like, as a home.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, God dwells with us. He lives in us. Like, He makes His home in us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so, like, we have a seat. We have a bread to eat with Him.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We have light to see Him by.
David: Oh, that's good.
Seth: We have a place to wash our hands and to make sure that we're clean from our journey. And so I'm just also thinking about, like, the intimate, the intimacy that this also, like, communicates. Like, God provides water continually, light continually, His, like-
David: Food continually
Seth: ... food continually.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He's always sitting.
David: His presence continually. Yeah.
Seth: He's always sitting and listening-
David: Oh, my goodness
Seth: ... like a good king or good father. He provides the opportunity to wash if you're dirty from your travels. I was like, like, what a y- intimate picture that we also see in Jesus, like, who does this. I think, I'm thinking about the, the Last Supper. Like, He sits with His disciples, even the ones that are about to betray Him.
David: Mm.
Seth: He breaks bread for them. Uh, it's li- it's dark outside, we're told, but He's inside the light with His ... You know, He's-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... in a lit room with His disciples. He washes their feet.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, those, I mean, those are all kind of, like, that's kind of allegorical, but, like, I'm just thinking, like, how-
Kristen: But it's all there woven throughout all of scripture-
David: Yeah
Kristen: ... are these themes of light and bread and-
David: That's amazing. Um, so man, I just, I want to, I want us to keep kind of going here because the, then after we see the, the, the, the, the golden lampstand, then we get a picture of all of these different curtains that surround the tabernacle, and, um, uh, what's going on here? Why, why are there so many curtains? [laughs] Like, and why are they all different shapes and different thicknesses and different colors? Uh, Kristin, any, any thoughts on this?
Kristen: Well, I do know that, um, they're, right now the Israelites cannot fully enter God's presence. They need a priest. They need the sacrifice.
David: Right.
Kristen: So, like Seth talked about earlier, that um, later, once Jesus comes, the the curtain is torn, so right we see that that God is with them and His presence is with them. But there’s still that barrier.
David: There’s separation.
Kristen: There’s separations so until Christ comes, we don't know that, um, fullness of what the tabernacle is picturing.
David: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: But now we know Him fully, um, and we, all these other things are gone away because it was fulfilled in Christ.
David: Yeah. And we see the, the, uh, embroidered in these curtains are the cherubim again.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So it's like you gotta pass through the cherubim like you would have had to at the gate of Eden-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... to get into God's presence, so that's pretty cool. And then we, we alluded to it earlier, but let's talk about it, is this like, this is where we see the different levels of curtains. So it's like okay, there's this outermost boundary-
Seth: Right
David: ... uh, you know, and then you have like-
Seth: With all the bronze in that one.
David: Right.
Seth: And then you have the second innermost boundary-
David: Right
Seth: ... with all the silver and the, the curtain, and then the gold.
David: And there's like different thicknesses, even of the curtains-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... as you get in, and it's just trying to show visibly that like you are getting into more and more holy space-
Seth: Right
David: ... as you get closer and closer to God. Um, which is amazing then, in Christ, that we see that God, that Jesus left the Holy of Holies, right? He left His actual throne room to kind of walk the opposite direction out from-
Seth: Right
David: ... the gold, out from the silver, out from the bronze, out through the common court, and then out into the world. And like He left the tabernacle-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and, and came to us.
Seth: It proves what I, I said earlier. It's like we, it, the, all these structures weren't meant to keep people out, as if God didn't want to be with His people.
David: Mm.
Seth: They were to ensure proper entrance into His presence.
David: Right, it was grace.
Seth: It was grace.
David: Right.
Seth: And so the fact that Jesus moves out of the temple-
David: Oh, amazing
Seth: ... breaks the, like that's actually proof that God's presence is, He's always wanted to dwell with His people.
David: Yes.
Seth: He's always wanted to live among us. And y- yeah.
David: Yeah, that's amazing. And so we haven't talked about the, uh, the bronze altar, which is what we see next, which would be the first, uh, I think if, if I'm right here-
Seth: First thing
David: ... it, it would be the first thing you would come to when you entered into the temple grounds, right, the tabernacle grounds. You'd have to, is that right, Kristen?
Kristen: Yeah. So, um, the bronze altar of sacrifice points to the place where Jesus' blood was poured out for our sins.
David: Mm-hmm.
Kristen: So it's just this constant reminder, as I talked about in the beginning, that there was this, the smell that just took over the campground and the tabernacle. I mean, the people could not escape the stench of their sin-
David: Mm
Kristen: ... through this. I mean, that's why we needed sacrifice, but it was just a reminder.
David: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I've ever thought about the altar as a reminder of sin. And so-
Seth: No
David: ... the, 'cause the bronze altar is where the sacrifices were actually done.
Seth: It's the first thing that you see.
David: Right.
Seth: And-
David: Which is [laughs] what, what does that say to you as someone trying to approach God? It's like, "Hey, welcome to the tabernacle. Time to kill something." It's like what is that?
Seth: Right.
David: It's like, it's the first thing you have to do, 'cause that stench that you talked about that's always there is this constant heavy reminder looming over the camp of Israel that your hearts are always wicked, that you're always breaking God's commandment, that you always have sin that need to be atoned for. So the first thing, if you want to enter into God's presence, like you gotta realize that He's holy and you're not.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So you gotta, something has to be done here.
Seth: And then how redemptive when you walk into that next sphere, like there's a bowl of incense-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's supposed to wash away the smell of your sin.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then-
David: And now you go from a, a terrible smell of dead animals and rotting carcasses and burnt hair to this, as we'll find later, like these expertly crafted bits of perfumes and-
Seth: Artisanal
David: ... artisanal-
Seth: Like hipsters are the percenters [laughs]
David: ... are, hipster incense. Uh, yeah, essential oils being diffused. But it is amazing. It's like you move from the aroma of death to the aroma of life because of the sacrifice, and that's what Christ does. Like our lives are nothing but a stench of death, nothing but hopelessness, and then when Christ's blood is shed on the, the altar for us, we enter into the presence of God, and what was in our nostrils that was just death and decay is now life and beauty and, and, and, uh, frankincense and myrrh.
Seth: Myrrh.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And hipsters.
David: And hipsters.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Yeah. Okay, great. So what, what, what haven't we talked about yet? I think we have not talked about the laver, right?
Seth: We haven't.
David: The laver.
Seth: Do you want to talk about the laver?
David: Or do you say, do you say laver or laver?
Seth: I think neither.
David: Neither.
Seth: I don't use that word.
David: What do you say? You don't, you don't use that word? [laughs]
Kristen: You say the washing basin.
David: Do you say the washing machine?
Seth: The washing. [laughs] Yes.
David: Yeah, it's the, the wash, the washing basin. The basin.
Seth: Yeah. I think it's, in my Bible it's just called the bronze basin.
David: I have the, uh, I have the confusing Bible edition-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... with, with words you don't use anymore.
Seth: Well, laver just means, it's, it's from Latin, to wash.
David: Oh, great. I didn't know that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That's helpful.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah, so it's this washing station. So it was after you went to the bronze altar and made your sacrifice, then you would come and wash, right?
Kristen: Right. So once again, we see Jesus, because Jesus ultimately washes and cleanses us-
David: Mm-hmm
Kristen: ... because He is the living water.
David: Yeah. And so I mean, that's amazing. So it's like any of the blood that's still on you from the sacrifice, it's not only, uh, 'cause you're not only like atoning for sin in the sacrifice, you're also then coming and becoming ritually clean. And so in Jesus's death, what that shows us is that not only does He take our unrighteousness, right, He gives us His righteousness. He not only takes our uncleanliness, the penalty for our sin, He gives us His cleanliness and the beauty of His righteousness. Like we're not only atoned for, we're now clean.
Kristen: Yes.
David: Like ritually pure. So like God doesn't just look at us and go, "All right, fine, I won't punish you because I dealt with your sin." He looks at you and He goes, "Oh, come in. Like you belong here. You're clean."
Kristen: "You're holy and righteous."
David: "You're righteous. Oh, that's so cool."
Kristen: Like that's amazing.
David: So like right before you enter into the tent, you get, you get washed.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And now you can come into the tent. That's so cool.
Seth: I think maybe as a way to sum- summarize a lot of what we're talking about here, so we've basically gone through each major section-
David: I think so, yep
Seth: ... the outside, the, the inner, and the holiest inner, inner, inner-
David: Yep
Seth: ... section. [laughs] But like in the very end of the Book of Exodus, after all this happens, Moses and the people of Israel-Do the golden calf thing, and they repent and whatever else. Moses finally tries to go into the temple, into the tabernacle after it's built-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and he's prevented from doing it. He can't go in.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then you have the whole Book of Leviticus, which is even more regulations on how exactly to approach God, what types of sacrifice would be offered on that altar, how you get there, and the final verse of the book, verse of the Book of Leviticus is, "And Go- and Moses watched in the presence of the Lord."
David: Yeah.
Seth: So you have this sense of anti-climax in the Book of Exodus, like all this leading up to finally dwelling with God's Go- with God, being with God, and Moses can't.
David: Hmm.
Seth: He can't do it. And so there's this sense like we're, we're waiting, and we're looking for a proper way to interact with God still.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And that's given to us in the Book of Leviticus, and then we're able to enter in. And so what we're saying really is, like, if you were balling up the Book of Leviticus, placing it in the middle of the tabernacle and saying, "Really, what Moses needed was, if he wanted to be there right then in that moment, he needed Jesus."
David: Yeah.
Seth: He needed Jesus to be the sacrifice on the altar. He needed Jesus to wash him clean.
David: Yes.
Seth: He needed Jesus to be the bread that he ate. He needed to be, Jesus to be the light for, hit the world. He needed to be the incense that was offered. He needed to be the curtain that was torn in two, and he needed Jesus to be the blood on the mercy seat so that he could have access with the Father.
David: Yes. And I love that, um, it was this house, like, "Let me build this house for us to live together. Oh, but by the way, there's an altar, and a labor, and incense, and all these things that have, that, like, are here." And it's like, why are these parts of the house here if we were just meant to kinda come in and hang out with God? And it's like he knew before the golden calf happened that all these things would have to be there. There would have to be provision for sin, and, like, there would have to be a way for sacrifi-fice to happen and a way for people to be cleansed even before the breaking of the covenant actually occurred.
Seth: Mm.
David: Which makes me just think about, like, the fact that Jesus was the lamb who covenanted with the world to be slain before the, before the foundations of the world. Like, He, He was always, it was, like, in the, oh, oh, think about this.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Because, um, he constantly says that, um, that, that, uh, that the tabernacle's a copy of heaven. That, like, I've got this copy of the tabernacle up here in heaven, and I want you to have, like, a, a, of the blueprint-
Seth: Right
David: ... so you can kinda see what heaven's like. And it's like, so that means that up in the heavenly courtrooms w- with God, like, where, where He lives, in God's house, um, there was this bronze basin, and there, and there was this, like, altar, and, like, why is all this stuff here?
Seth: Right.
Davd: Oh, it's not that those things were there, were there. It's all Jesus.
Seth: Hmm.
Kristen: Right.
David: Jesus was forever the altar.
Seth: Hmm.
David: Jesus was forever the bronze basin where we would be washed. Jesus was forever the bread of life, forever the light of the world. Like, before the foundations of the world-
Seth: Just had this picture [laughs] out of nowhere. Did you ever see that TV show Prison Break?
David: No. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] He had, like, tattooed on his body a map of the, of the prison, and that's how he escaped. I just imagine Jesus, like, tattooed with-
David: All these ways of, for escape
Seth: ... all this happening. [laughs]
David: That's-
Seth: That was really stupid. And I told-
Kristen: Well, Jesus, heaven and Earth meet.
David: Oh, yeah.
Kristen: I mean, Jesus fulfills-
David: That's good
Kristen: ... everything in the tabernacle, so we have this picture. He gives us this picture-
David: Yeah
Kristen: ... to see.
David: Okay, let's end with this. Um, it, when we get to Revelation and the coming of the new heavens and new Earth, what's missing? The tabernacle. [laughs]
Kristen: Right.
David: There's no longer any temple, it says.
Kristen: Yeah, they pull back the curtain, and it's-
David: It's, there's, it's not, the structure's gone.
Kristen: Right.
David: Why? Huh?
Kristen: 'Cause Jesus is there.
Seth: It's Jesus, yeah.
David: Because Jesus is all of it. Like, that, that's what we're talking about.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, the perfect substance that the tabernacle was only a shadow of has come, so we don't need the shadow anymore. We don't need the copy because Jesus is with us.
Seth: Right. Hmm.
Kristen: That's so cool-
David: And He, He-
Kristen: ... how Revelation relates back
David: ... he's the presence of God. Oh, it's amazing. Um, okay, Kristen, will you tell us just a little bit more about, um, your book and, uh, kinda what people could expect when they read it, um, and then again, maybe where, where you'd wanna point them to find it?
Kristen: Sure. The book is called The Gospel-Centered Life in Exodus for Students. It's written primarily for high school and college students as a small group resource. So there's 12 lessons. Each can be done in an hour's time. The book includes leader's notes. Um, and all of it, all 12 lessons point to Jesus.
David: Hmm.
Kristen: Um, but I did it in such a way that I really want students to see, um, how the gospel in a, a book like Exodus is relevant to our everyday life because I think a lot of times we don't understand how the Old Testament speaks into what we're going through here today.
David: Right.
Seth: It's really good. I'm having all my, we're preaching through the Book of Exodus right now in our student ministry-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and all my leaders are using it for their, um-
David: Small groups?
Seth: For their small groups.
David: Oh, awesome.
Seth: Even though we don't have an hour, we're using it as a great way to, like, here's, here's a whole bunch of great exercises and questions that you can ask based on these, on these texts that are gonna be a great resource for you, and our leaders loved it.
David: Oh, that's amazing.
Kristen: That's so good to hear, and someone could use it just as their own personal quiet time-
David: That is also an answer. Okay
Kristen: ... to kinda dive deeper into, you know, each section of Exodus.
David: That's great. So yeah, if you're listening and you're like, "Man, I, I love listening to Seeing Jesus in all of Exodus, but I'd love to be able to kinda take it at my own pace and work through it devotionally," we could not recommend Kristen's book high, uh, higher to you. So what, um, where, where should they go to find it?
Kristen: Um, my publisher is New Growth Press, so you can find it there. It's on Amazon. Um, you can find me in the book also on my website, which is just my name, kristenhatton.com.
David: Amazing, and we'll, we'll include links to, uh, her, her book. We'll include links to the website, uh, to your social media handles and all that stuff on the description here.
Kristen: Mm-hmm.
David: So make sure you give Kristen a follow, and, uh, buy her book, and support her. Tell people about this book 'cause it's like, why wouldn't you want a, like, 12 guides to just see Jesus in all of Exodus in this simple, uh, profound way? I mean, it's such a, it's such a valuable resource, so thank you for writing it, Kristen.
Kristen: Sure, yeah.
David: On, on behalf of the church at large-
Kristen: Thank you
David: ... I think it's, it's just such a valuable resource, and thank you for joining us today on our show.
Kristen: Thanks for including me.
David: Yeah, of course. Of course.
Seth: And Kristen admitted before she got here that she has not liked our show on iTunes yet.
David: She hasn't?
Seth: She hasn't.
David: She hasn't submitted a review?
Seth: She has not.
Kristen: I'm gonna do that today.
Seth: So don't be like Kristen. [laughs]
David: Only in this one way.
Seth: In only this one way.
David: In being sweet, and intelligent, and loving Jesus. Be all those things, but Kristen.
Seth: But in this way of not doing the thing.
David: Not, so leave a review on our show. Is that what you're saying?
Seth: That's what I'm trying to say. [laughs]
David: Oh, fantastic.
Kristen: I will do that today.
David: Awesome. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Uh, it's been a blast having Kristen on the show, and, uh, we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
