Intro: [upbeat music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, welcome everyone to the last episode on Exodus.
Seth: Christmas special.
David: Christmas special. We-
Seth: Just like Doctor Who.
David: We've made it. It's, uh, it's after Thanksgiving now.
Seth: It's, it is.
David: And, uh, and, um, now we're... This is gonna be our last episode of the year, too.
Seth: For the-
David: So-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... for, for 2018. We're gonna end on Exodus.
Seth: Three weeks without our-
David: We're gonna... With our speech
Seth: ... deep, [laughs] sultry... [laughs]
David: Oh. I don't know if we are any of these things.
Seth: I don't-
David: But-
Seth: I don't know if, if somebody had one word to describe your voice-
David: What would it be?
Seth: ... what would it be?
David: Grating. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Gravy-like.
David: Gravy-like.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Ooh, are we using Thanksgiving themes?
Seth: Thanksgiving themes.
David: Okay. Yeah.
Seth: Or Christmas.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Topped with cranberry sauce.
Seth: Mm.
David: Mm, very good. But yeah, so we are ending Exodus, um, with a, a big old chunk of text. Uh-
Seth: 35 through 40.
David: 35 through 40. Uh, and you'll see why as we start to walk through it. Um, and then, uh, we'll take a break, and we'll be back, um, in January.
Seth: In January.
David: With what, Seth?
Seth: Uh-
David: You wanna make the announcement?
Seth: The Psalms. [laughs]
David: [laughs] The Psalms. Yes.
Seth: The Psalms.
David: We're doing the Psalms next.
Seth: With Jeff Vanderstelt-
David: Yes
Seth: ... as a special guest.
David: That's right. So Jeff Vanderstelt, author of Saturate and Gospel Fluency-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... a number of other things, is gonna be joining us to kick off the Psalms, which I'm really excited about. That's gonna be awesome.
Seth: I am, too.
David: And then, uh, then we'll spend-
Seth: Well-
David: ... eight weeks on the Psalms.
Seth: Going through each of the, the kinds of psalms that there are.
David: Right, so lament, and imprecatory, and, uh, priest, or, or, uh, king-
Seth: Ascent
David: ... ascent-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... uh, uh, throne. Like yeah.
Seth: We'll know them by the time-
David: Royalty. Yeah
Seth: ... January comes.
David: We'll, we'll learn them and, uh-
Seth: We, we need time to study.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So. [laughs]
David: We're taking December to study the Psalms. Uh, but we're really excited about that. So let us kinda dive in here to the last-
Seth: The last five
David: ... episode of Exodus.
Seth: So why these last five together?
David: Yeah. So, um, you, you kinda have this... Let, let's look at what we just came from. So we came from, um, God, or Moses was up with, with God on Mount Sinai. He was receiving, um, all of the law and the instructions for how to build the tabernacle, and construct the priestly garments, and compose the altar of incense, yada, yada, yada. And then you had, um, the breakdown of the covenant at-
Seth: The golden calf
David: ... the golden calf. Um, and then God was like, "I'm not gonna come among my people anymore. Everything's terrible." Um, Moses intercedes, God punishes and renews his covenant with His people. And then we get this, like, chunk of text here. And what we see is, um, it's kind of unworking all the mess that just happened. So, um, if you kinda look at the structure, uh, leading up to the golden calf, you have, like, um, rules for how to build the tabernacle. You have the commissioning and anointing of, um-
Seth: Bezalel
David: ... Bezalel, and then you have the command for the Sabbath.
Seth: Right.
David: And then you have the mess of the golden calf.
Seth: The mess of the golden calf.
David: And then right at the other end of this, it flips the equation-
Seth: Right
David: ... and you have the Sabbath, and then the commissioning and anointing of Bezalel-
Seth: Okay
David: ... and then the con- the how to build the tabernacle.
Seth: Sabbath regulations, then Bezalel's filled with the Holy Spirit and doing his thing.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then-
David: And then instead of the instructions for how to build the tabernacle, now we're seeing that the tabernacle is being built.
Seth: It's interesting.
David: And so why that l- literarily is like that is to show us this kind of descent into sin, and then it flips the equation to show us the descent out of sin, that it kind of reverses-
Seth: Ascent out of sin, yeah.
David: Ascent out of sin, yeah. So what we have here is basically the people of Israel obeying finally, which is opposite-
Seth: Right
David: ... of what happened at the golden calf. Now they're actually obeying everything God commanded for them on the mountain.
Seth: So last- the reason, ultimately, the reason why these last five chapters are lumped together, because this is a record of Israel's obedience.
David: Yes.
Seth: So after gross disobedience, idolatry, uh, making this golden calf, Israel has what seems like true repentance-
David: Right
Seth: ... in their hearts, and they respond to all the g- laws that God made before by actually doing them. God told them to build a tabernacle. God, God told them to anoint Bezalel. God told them to make garments and ephods, and to build it in a particular way, and to make lamps-
David: All the things. Lamps and-
Seth: ... and lamp lamps, and, and the-
David: Yep. Onyx stones
Seth: ... onyx stones.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And you see Israel actually doing it.
David: Step by step, bit by bit, line by line. Um, so th- that's why this, this, this is also grouped together, because we've already talked about all of these things that appear here in this passage, because they are basically a copy and paste from, what is it, 23, 25-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... up to 31.
Seth: That's right.
David: And so they basically copy and paste it, and so it's like, oh yeah, so everything that God said on the mountain, they're now obeying just as He said.
Seth: Yes. And so if you fast-forward, rewind I mean.
David: Okay.
Seth: Rewind.
David: Yep.
Seth: Flashback.
David: Flashback.
Seth: To our show last week, where we opened up, uh, and talked about, uh, how the law was a ministry of death.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And you talked about how when the law was given, uh, we'd descend down into the golden calf, but then ascend out.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: You can think about, about it as a type of death and resurrection. Like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the law is given. It leads to the death of the golden calf, but God, in His grace and mercy-
David: Mm
Seth: ... rises them out of that and allows them to obey the covenant commands.
David: Wow.
Seth: And so we have here God ob- Israel obeying all that God commanded them to do, like they were supposed to do in the first place.
David: Right.
Seth: And you should, as a reader, be like, "It's happening. It's happening."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as you get to- towards the end, there's this phrase that's repeated over and over again called, uh, as the Lord commanded Moses. As the Lord commanded Moses. It's used 18 times-
David: [laughs] In two chapters
Seth: ... in two chapters, and with increasing frequency.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So as I, I read it and then I listen to it, and you just hear, "As the Lord commanded Moses, this, this, this. As the Lord commanded Moses, this, this, this. As the Lord commanded Moses..." You feel like this-Crescendo coming
David: Yeah, that's good
Seth: ... oh my gosh, it's happening.
David: Right
Seth: They're gonna obey, something's gonna happen, and then the Lord's gonna come, and then he doesn't.
David: He-
Seth: [laughs] Well, he does
David: He, he does come.
Seth: He does, but-
David: He does come
Seth: ... Moses does not have access.
David: Right, and we'll get to that.
Seth: We'll get-
David: Yeah. So, um, a- a- if you're, if you're, if you're reading this passage too, um, I remember reading a com- one commentator, uh, yesterday and, uh, he talked about how this section can be really burdensome for readers, and then in parentheses he put, "And scholars" [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... to get through, because i- you, you're like, "I've already read this before," right? Like, "I've already read this. I've already read all about the onyx stones, and the fine twined linen," and, and like that was the hardest part of Exodus for me to read through. And now-
Seth: I have to read it again
David: ... in crushing literary punishment, you're being forced to read it again.
Seth: Have you ever read Les Miserables?
David: No, I've tried and you, you've, you-
Seth: It's the worst. [laughs]
David: ... you described to me that one scene about like, where e- like f- for three pages describing French street names or something?
Seth: Yeah, so there's a big battle going on and Hugo, Victor Hugo, is taking you through this French town that the battle's happening here.
David: Right.
Seth: But he does so by describing all the cross streets-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... in this French town.
David: So terrible
Seth: So page after page after page, and all I'm reading is French street names.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And I can't bring myself-
David: Ugh
Seth: ... to g- and I stopped reading-
David: So funny
Seth: ... Les Miserables at that point.
David: That's it. That was your Miserables right there.
Seth: That was my Miserables.
David: You were miserable.
Seth: Right here-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is... Yes.
David: Yes. So, um, I, I just think, like, why is it important then, like that the, that the reader, or that, that the, the, that, that the writer and the editor of Exodus felt it necessary to have this copy and paste moment here of the most arduous section of the book? Like, why is this here with such crushing detail?
Seth: Well, I think because this is the hope. The fact that, that-
David: Mm
Seth: ... when the tabernacle is built and God's presence dwells in it, that's the hope of the Book of Exodus. All the way back in Exodus 3, what does God say? Like, "I see your affliction, I know your suffering-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and I am coming down."
David: Right.
Seth: So the hope of the Book of Exodus is that God would be with his people.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so where will God be with his people? He will be with them in the tabernacle, and the tabernacle cannot be constructed apart from obedience to God's commands.
David: Right.
Seth: So why is it, like redone in such detail? Because the only way that we have access to God is if we are holy like he is holy.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like if we... I think a mathematical parallelism was one of the-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... a phrase that I u- I saw in another, in another... It was actually in J.C. Ryle's book about, um, sin and sanctification.
David: Okay.
Seth: He says, in order for us in the law to be near God, there needs to be a mathematical parallelism between our actions and God's law. And I was like, "Well-
David: I, I don't understand that
Seth: ... what he means is, like, a mathematical precision. Like, God's law says it this way-
David: Oh
Seth: ... we must match it exactly.
David: Oh.
Seth: Our lives must parallel mathematically, precisely the way in which God told us we need to communicate to him.
David: Oh, that's interesting. Okay, so-
Seth: And so what we have here is literally that happening.
David: Yes. Okay.
Seth: We have the parallel, here's all the laws, and then the mathematical precision in which every single law is met line upon line, verse by verse-
David: Right
Seth: ... as the Lord commanded Moses, as the Lord-
David: Okay
Seth: ... commanded Moses.
David: So then I guess that leads to the next question, then. Why is such precision necessary, um, in obeying God's laws? I, I mean, like I'm, I'm immediately reminded of, like what Paul said in the New Testament when he said, "If you break one part of the c- of the law, you're guilty of breaking all of it." You know, so I'm, I'm kinda like, "Okay, the law's kind of a stickler," or, you know, like how am I supposed to think through, like, is, like why is God so like, "You must do it this way, and mathematical precision down to the decimal point," and-
Seth: It goes back to God's holiness.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like who he is. Like, if he's this totally unique being who has all power and life coming from him, he can only be approached in a way that accords with perfection and life.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And if he has told you this is w- what perfection and life looks like in the construction of a building, which we're actually told is a copy-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of the one in heaven-
David: Right
Seth: ... then of course it would make sense that you have to follow it line upon line, otherwise you cannot enter into his presence. We talked about it several episodes ago, like the sun. Like if God is, if you can imagine the sun as being-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... holy because it's unique, a unique source of power and life for our universe.
David: Right.
Seth: And you can't approach it unless you approach it properly.
David: Right.
Seth: And we a- don't have the technology to-
David: No
Seth: ... land on the surface of the sun, right?
David: Right.
Seth: Like, but conceptually you can imagine, like you'd have to have this kind of space suit, you'd have to have this kind of protection.
David: Mm.
Seth: You'd have, you have to get there through these pieces of technology.
David: Yeah, the, the metal or what, the alloy or whatever has to be this thick on the s- on the shuttle-
Seth: Right, in order to get there
David: ... 'cause if it's any, if it's any more dense you're not gonna make it through the atmosphere. If it's any less dense you're gonna burn up on the sun.
Seth: Right.
David: Mathematical precision would be necessary to approach this-
Seth: Yes
David: ... holy, hot sun.
Seth: And so the same is true, so the same is true of landing on a-
David: A star
Seth: ... our galactic sun.
David: Yeah, yeah, right. [laughs]
Seth: Is the s- it's the same is true of trying to approach the cosmic God.
David: Much more so, right.
Seth: Much more so.
David: Yes.
Seth: So I think we see that played out here.
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Is there anything else there, too, about like, um, the law being as, like Paul talks about in Galatians, um, like our babysitter, you know? Our, uh, uh, what, what's the, what's the, what's the normal translation?
Seth: Our tutor.
David: Our tutor, yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Babysitter's way more helpful.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Um, uh, but i- is there anything else like that, like where it's like i- is, is this meant to feel-... burdensome, or is this meant to feel like awesome? Like, I-
Seth: I feel like when I was reading this, my impression was, like, relief.
David: Okay.
Seth: As I was reading it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, finally we have people-"
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: "... who are not complaining-"
David: Yeah. [laughs] Oh, yes
Seth: "... who are not grumbling-"
David: Right
Seth: "... who have-"
David: That's true
Seth: ... faith.
David: There's no grumbling in here.
Seth: There's no grumbling. And-
David: That's like the longest part of Exodus where there's no grumbling.
Seth: And then Exodus 36-
David: I never thought about that
Seth: ... six, "So Moses gave command and word was proclaimed throughout the camp: 'Let no man or woman do anything more for the contribution to the sanctuary.' So the people were restrained from the bringing in of the, all their gold and jewels."
David: Right.
Seth: Like, there's a sense, like, there's this willingness, there's, like, an overabundance of generosity.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, when have we seen this in-
David: We haven't
Seth: ... at all.
David: No.
Seth: And we're like, we're like, "Finally."
David: Yeah. Okay.
Seth: You know, people are... Like, so I see it as relief.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God's people are finally getting it.
David: That's good. So let's, let's lean into that because that's really interesting. Um, you bring up this story that's in the midst of, of this. So, like, the Sabbath regulations come, we, we, we hear about Bezalel again, and then it's like, okay, we're gonna build this tabernacle and everything, so everybody bring your contributions, all the stuff that you were just given from the Egyptians as you were leaving Egypt, that God, like, moved on the hearts of the Egyptians to give you this stuff. So come bring your, your contributions to the tabernacle. And they just give and give and give and give until they have to be restrained from giving because they have more than enough.
Seth: Right.
David: Which is such a cool story.
Seth: It is a cool story.
David: Um, we're like, we've not met this Israel before.
Seth: No.
David: Like, who is this Israel? And then you see them obey and obey and obey with mathematical precision, and it's like, guys, you broke like one of the 10 things God told you not to do. It was like number two, and you just broke it. Like, who is this Israel? And it's like, that's a question that I think we have to ask. Uh, what made the difference between, um, Israel in, in Exodus 32 that built the golden calf, and Israel here in 35 that is just obeying with mathematical precision? Like, what's the difference?
Seth: I think the difference is that in Egypt you had judgment coming down on Egypt-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Israel being spared, and then at the golden calf, you had judgment coming down on the people of Israel, again, the 3,000 who were worshiping.
David: Right. Right.
Seth: But also mercy at the same time because God was fi- was revealing his name to Moses on the mountain and renewing his covenant in spite of sin. And so I think the difference here is that God is proving himself merciful even in light of covenant disobedience.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Even when people do not deserve mercy, even after judgment has already come-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... they receive more mercy still.
David: Wow.
Seth: And I think that is what changes the hearts here. They see judgment fall.
David: Right.
Seth: They see mercy given to people who do not deserve it, and then there's a, a change of heart that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... compels them to obey, that compels them to give and give and give until they're told to stop. And I think that, that is the Gospel story, that when judgment is released on Jesus Christ-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... for the sake of mercy of, on people who have disobeyed-
David: Right, broken the covenant
Seth: ... the covenant command, who have broken the covenant, we are changed from one degree of glory-
David: Right
Seth: ... to the next by beholding-
David: 'Cause we look at-
Seth: ... Jesus.
David: Yeah, and we see the horrible, um, justice, the consequence for our sins that we deserve, poured out on Jesus in his, in his gruesome death-
Seth: Yes
David: ... that he took on us that would cause him to cry, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" We see that, and we're like, "That's the justice that I deserved." But then we're n- we, we find ourselves, we're not in the pit that, that, uh, swallowed up 3,000. We're not in the Red Sea that killed the Egyptians.
Seth: And even though God visits the iniquity on the third and fourth generation, his love lasts for thousands-
David: Yes
Seth: ... of generations.
David: We are blown away then not just by his, his judgment. It's almost overshadowed by the complete magnitude and absurdity of his mercy, that we see that while we were yet sinners, while we deserved the wrath of God that Jesus bore on the cross, instead we get mercy.
Seth: And that generosity and mercy towards us resulted in what in the people of Israel? A generosity and mercy in the-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... functioning, like, in the providing of the temple-
David: Right
Seth: ... that had to be restrained.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, like, even as, for application for Christians-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is your generosity in light of the generosity and mercy Christ has shown you such that people are saying, "This is too much"?
David: Right.
Seth: "You should be less generous with your money."
David: [laughs]
Seth: "You should be less generous with your time."
David: Right.
Seth: "You should be less merciful and less understanding, give people... You shouldn't give that, the people that many benefits of the doubt."
David: Right.
Seth: Do you interact that way with people-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... because of the mercy and grace that-
David: Right
Seth: ... you receive? Like-
David: And the only re- way you will is not by frivolously giving your money away just like an absurd person, but by reflecting on the mercy you've been given in an absurd way in Jesus Christ.
Seth: Yes.
David: And then that will move your heart, as it did the hearts of these, um, Israelite people, to do something they never did before, to stop grumbling, to obey, and to give with generosity that had to be restrained. [upbeat music]
David: Okay, so we talked about how Israel was changed, um, from the, the people that they were in Exodus 32, who would break God's command and built a golden calf, uh, to people who would obey and have such generosity that they would have to be restrained in 35 to 40 because they saw the justice that they deserved whenever they saw 3,000 people judged for building a golden calf. But instead, the rest of them received mercy, and God renewed his covenant and said he would be faithful to them despite their covenant unfaithfulness, and because of that justice and mercy, they saw it, their hearts were changed, and they began to obey, right?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, but [laughs] a very similar thing happened, um, at the Red Sea. Um, i- in, in, in magnificent display, God's justice came upon Pharaoh and his army, and in, in a completely spectacular fashion, Israel was saved.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? And yet right after it, they grumble.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So i- the, the justice and mercy wasn't enough to change their hearts then. What's the difference?
Seth: This might be a little bit of allegorizing 'cause I've thought about this.
David: Okay.
Seth: But I think it's because in that moment, the judgment was external-And the mercy was internal.
David: Oh, interesting.
Seth: The justice was done on their enemies.
David: Right. Oh, of course they deserve it.
Seth: Of course they deserve it.
David: Ah, yeah.
Seth: And then they received the mercy that they... They were the oppressed people.
David: Right.
Seth: And rightly, rightly enough-
David: Oh, right
Seth: ... oppressed people should be set free.
David: Yes.
Seth: So, but-
David: We don't, we don't, as modern readers, we don't look back at the story of Pharaoh oppressing people and then getting judged and go, "Oh, poor Pharaoh." We're like, "Oh, yeah, he kind of deserved that."
Seth: Right.
David: But then at, at the golden calf, we're like, "Really, just for building a statue, they all died?"
Seth: Right.
David: Like, even we kind of know there's a difference.
Seth: And we've talked a few different times about we're supposed to see Israel as becoming like Egypt in a lot of senses.
David: Yes, yes.
Seth: And so I think what's different about here at the golden calf is that they realize that judgment comes against them and mercy comes against them at the same time.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Judgment and mercy are being poured out on them.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Not, it's not separated.
David: By race or-
Seth: By-
David: ... class or anything, yeah
Seth: ... or any, yeah. So, like, I think, and I think, too, for, as modern readers, it's easy to say, "Well, those are the bad people out there, and I'm-"
David: That deserve jus- judgment
Seth: ... and I'm basically a good person-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... therefore, I, I should get into heaven. But I think the Christian storyline is no, you need to see yourself as in, like, you should be justly punished-
David: Right
Seth: ... for your Pharaoh-like tendencies.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: Paul, borrowing imagery from the Book of Exodus, says we are slaves to sin.
David: Right.
Seth: So his, his understanding is that we have reigning over our hearts little Pharaohs-
David: Mm
Seth: ... who are controlling us in some way, and who we are actually, like, complicit with.
David: Right.
Seth: You know?
David: Yeah.
Seth: And, like, we are our own Pharaohs. And so he wants, I think we need to understand that we deserve the judgment that Isr- that Egypt received.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And Israel doesn't get that message until the golden calf.
David: I see. Yeah. That's really good. I think that's really helpful. Um, and then I think the other distinctive we see here that makes the difference, um, other than the intensification and personalization of justice and mercy, um, is we see the Holy Spirit. Like, we see this spirit of generosity that, that God gives to people, that, um, that God moves on people's hearts to help them obey, to make them obey. And it's like, uh, in, in the golden calf, you know, Moses isn't there, God's on the mountain, you know, the whole idea of a present God with them, helping them to obey is completely absent.
Seth: Right.
David: But here, God becomes present in a way that moves not only Eleazar and Oholiab, but also-
Seth: Bezalel. Bezalel.
David: Beza- Bel- what do I say?
Seth: Oho- uh, Eleazar.
David: Oh, I always do that.
Seth: You do.
David: That's Aaron's son.
Seth: Yes.
David: Um, anyway, Bezalel and Oholiab, uh, but also all the people of Israel are, are being moved to be generous, to contribute, to obey, and it's like, what's happening here? It's like, oh, obedience is not only the response to experiencing mercy after seeing what you deserved in judgment. Even that wouldn't be enough to, to-
Seth: Right
David: ... move us properly. God has to come to us and make us people who can obey.
Seth: Yes. He needs to fill us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... with His Holy Spirit-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to fulfill the mathematical parallels-
David: Right
Seth: ... parallelism of the law. He needs to fill us with himself to do the law itself-
David: Yes
Seth: ... that, that he gave, right?
David: He has to do the be- the beginning, middle, and the end.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which it's like, we, we see that played out, like, in narrative form in, uh, at the end of the Gospels and the beginning of the Book of Acts. Because Jesus dies, right, they see justice and mercy displayed, they don't really get it, you know? [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: And then 50 days after, uh, you know, after the Passover, you've got Pentecost comes, and, um, the Holy Spirit comes, fills them up, and there they go. They're off obeying finally.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Jesus told them before he left, he said, "Go and make disciples of all nations." Like, "Go spread my gospel around." And then they didn't do it for 50 days.
Seth: They stayed in the, they-
David: They stayed in the little upper room, right? And then the Holy Spirit comes, and they start obeying.
Seth: Right.
David: Because just seeing the justice and mercy wasn't enough, because-
Seth: You need the Holy Spirit to empower you to enact that justice-
David: Yes, and to-
Seth: ... and mercy in your life
David: ... and to understand it, to see it, to let it sink in. Like, that, that's what, that's what's so baffling. I mean, you know, Exodus, I think we, we have a precedence to talk about this, because Exodus talks about the hard heart-
Seth: It does
David: ... over and over again. And, like, that idea shows us just how hard our hearts are, that we have such hard hearts as human beings that we could see the beauty of the gospel, the wrath of God poured out on innocent Jesus, sparing us and giving us mercy we didn't deserve, and walk away fearful and unchanged.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, that's how hard our hearts are. We need the Holy Spirit to come and change it, and, like, make the, the, the good news sink in.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, how helpless we are. [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yeah.
David: Oh, man.
Seth: And I think, too, for a skeptical, I don't, I don't know how many non-Christians are listening to our podcast-
David: Sure
Seth: ... but I, I think it's even helpful to understand that for the skeptical reader. Like, you may not believe in Jesus or, or whatever, but you can probably say, "If I saw a sign-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... then I would believe."
David: Yes.
Seth: "If I saw a manna come from heaven, if I saw a quail fall at my footstep, if I saw the Red Sea parting, if I saw a cloud of smoke appear over the tabernacle that Moses just built, then I would believe."
David: Right.
Seth: "If I saw Jesus' miracles, then I would believe." Um, and I think the consistent message of the Old Testament and the New is you, you won't.
David: You won't.
Seth: You, no amount of miraculous evidence will convince your heart, and the only reason you think it will be is because you have too high a view of your sense, uh, like, of your ability to determine fact and truth.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And so one of the things that I think, as Christians, we all have to say is, like, we start with humility, uh, understanding, like, we don't actually understand-
David: Right
Seth: ... the th- the mechanisms behind an infinite God.
David: Right.
Seth: And we say, we have to kind of submit to that and say it's only by God's spirit empowering us to understand and see the evidence in the right light that we'll ever come to know.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's why in John 6 he says, "Only those who I call," um-
David: Will come to me
Seth: ... will come to me.
David: Right.
Seth: And so I think there's this sense like you need to understand as a non-believer-
David: Mm
Seth: ... or even as a Christian-
David: Right
Seth: ... like the only reason you see miracles, the only reason you see the Bible and say, "That's Jesus, that's compelling, that changes my life," is because God did that.
David: Right. You don't believe because you are particularly intelligent, or because you just happened to be raised in a Christian home, or because, um, you sought out truth more than someone else. There's nothing in you or your pursuit of God that made you able to believe, um, in the death, burial, resurrection of Jesus.
Seth: Right.
David: Like-
Seth: And those are really subtle ways of an- like of, those are really subtle legalisms.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, oh, I'm, like that's not just I'm a good person.
David: No.
Seth: That's like I did the study myself, and I came to the right conclusion.
David: Right, I figured it out. Right.
Seth: Like that's, that's legalism.
David: Yes.
Seth: And basing your salvation on something other than the mercy and justice of Jesus Christ, and the empowering of His Holy Spirit.
David: Yes. You would always be Israel in, in, in Exodus 32, building idols while God's on the mountain right before you. You would be missing the miracle and worshiping a false god if the Holy Spirit didn't come and change your life. And like it's that humility that is put on us when we have a good view of our hard hearts and everything that the, the lengths to which God went to save us, it's that humility that makes us worship, like and obey, like and change our hearts, and make us want to, like with mathematical precision, obey this amazing God, a- and give with generosity that we need to be restrained. Because we see the depths of sin and, and hardness that, that God came and pursued us and to, to bring us out of it.
Seth: Yeah. [gentle music]
Seth: So essentially we have several chapters of obedience, that's what's happening, and then in chapter 40, the last chapter of the Book of Exodus, um, the tabernacle is built-
David: It's done
Seth: ... on Passover.
David: Oh.
Seth: Uh, well, close to it. The Lord spoke to Moses saying, "On the first day of the first month, you shall erect the tabernacle."
David: Oh, and that's Passover.
Seth: That's Passover.
David: Right.
Seth: So we were told that the, that you should celebrate Passover on-
David: That's right
Seth: ... the 10th day of the first month, and this first month will be to you the first of months.
David: Right.
Seth: You're supposed to reorient your calendar around-
David: Around the Passover event-
Seth: ... the Passover
David: ... at the Exodus.
Seth: Like a subs- subs- the substitution of blood providing protection. This is the start of your new calendar.
David: So does that mean it's been one year since?
Seth: I think so.
David: Okay.
Seth: You're supposed to understand that a year has taken place at Sinai.
David: Okay.
Seth: And so at the end-
David: So-
Seth: ... of this year, Passover's coming around again, or maybe I guess this would be the, this would be the first-
David: The first time, it wasn't-
Seth: The first-
David: It, it'd be celebrated symbolically and not actually. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, and then the tabernacle's being built for that event.
David: Okay.
Seth: So this is a big moment.
David: Yeah.
Seth: God came last time on Passover to protect the people of Israel.
David: Yeah, in a big way.
Seth: The tabernacle's being built, God's presence is about to fall, and Moses does it perfectly.
David: Right.
Seth: Just as God commanded Moses. Just as God commanded Moses.
David: Oh, which is interesting-
Seth: Just as God commanded Moses
David: ... because we see a similar thing in the Passover story itself earlier in Exodus, because God comes to Moses and tells him everything that the people must do, um, to prepare their homes for that 10th plague to come. Right? He says like, "Get this kind of branch and this kind of animal."
Seth: Right.
David: "Use the blood this way." And the people then did it, and God's presence, you know, protected them.
Seth: Right.
David: Right? But here, we have it again. God commanded, and then they do it the, the right way, and now God's presence is about to come to the tabernacle.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This is very interesting.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Moses finishes the work.
David: Mm.
Seth: Which I thought was such a powerful phrase after [laughs] slogging through command after command, and after repeated obedience after repeated obedience, like when will I finally get to the end of this section of text?
David: You see the word finished and you're like, "Yes."
Seth: Like, yes.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So Moses finished the work.
David: Mm.
Seth: All the obedience has been done. The commands that have been given so far have either been atoned for, been passed over, forgiven, or completed.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The work has been finished.
David: Mm.
Seth: So as a reader, what are you expecting at this moment?
David: Oh, a Sabbath? I don't know.
Seth: I was, I was like, I was looking for, as a reader, you're expecting God's presence to fall.
David: Oh.
Seth: Right? You're, that's what you're expecting.
David: The work's done.
Seth: The work's done, everything's completed.
David: Yep.
Seth: The tabernacle's built.
David: Right. Oh, of course.
Seth: By the power.
David: Yeah, that's where I'm gonna dwell.
Seth: That's where I'm gonna dwell.
David: The work's done.
Seth: The Holy Spirit's-
David: Yep
Seth: ... the, the presence is gonna come, and Moses and Israel will have the relationship they've wanted from the beginning.
David: Right. It's finally gonna be here.
Seth: It's gonna be here.
David: Oh, it's the moment.
Seth: It's the moment.
David: I'm so excited.
Seth: So excited.
David: Oh, it's gonna be the best.
Seth: Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
David: It happened.
Seth: It happened. Amazing.
David: Yeah, a- and like the, the, the, the presence of God that was on Sinai that, that only Moses could go into that seemed so foreign and far, even though that's closer than I've ever been.
Seth: Right.
David: [laughs] Uh, it, it moves to off the mountain to this tent that they built.
Seth: Yes.
David: And like-
Seth: In the middle of the camp.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Right?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And could you imagine being like, [gasps] "That's the piece of linen that I, that I contributed."
Seth: You're like far on the east side of the camp-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and then you see just smoke rising-
David: Rising
Seth: ... in the distance.
David: Yep. Oh, man.
Seth: You ever watch Lost and the Smoke Monster? [laughs]
David: [laughs] Yes.
Seth: Anyway, it wasn't, it probably wasn't that.
David: No.
Seth: But-
David: But yeah, so-
Seth: But totally. [laughs]
David: It's happening. Uh, people are like, "Oh, my gosh, this is working."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "This is happening. This is real."
Seth: And we're, and we're told that, that now the presence will lift up and move-
David: Move
Seth: ... whenever Israel's supposed to move. The presence of God guides and directs the people of Israel to where they're supposed to go. But at the same time, God's presence falls in the way that they had been hoping to, there's still a distance.
David: Something unexpected happens.
Seth: And verse 35, "And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting because the cloud settled on it and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle." So what, what had been hoped for, what had seemed to happen before where God's-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... when Moses spoke to God face to face, was in the tabernacle, was in the glory cloud before-
David: Yep
Seth: ... has stopped.
David: Yep.
Seth: Moses cannot enter into the tabernacle like he had hoped to be.
David: Right.
Seth: And we know this is supposed to be shocking for us because it takes the entire Book of Leviticus and the first book, the first chapter of the Book of Numbers-
David: Numbers
Seth: ... to tell us that Moses finally entered in.
David: Right.
Seth: So when you hear that, what are you thinking?
David: Oh, man
Seth: ... like, God's presence comes, Moses is ready to go in, but he can't. Why can't he? He's done everything right.
David: Right.
Seth: Why can't he go in?
David: I don't know. If he's like, "Is something broken?" Like, did, d- didn't Moses do everything right? Like, it's-
Seth: Did the people do everything right?
David: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean, the people didn't, but it seems like God had patched things up and was like, "All right, covenant's renewed. No big deal." Uh, and you know, Moses was a good representative the whole time. Why can't he go in? You know, like, what's going on here? Uh, he used to be able to go into the g- the glory cloud on the mountain. He used to be able to go into the, the tent of meeting, where God's glory would fill it, and talk to God face to face. Like, why is the tabernacle different? Like, I'm like, I'm befuddled. Like, if I ... Like, the more I think about it, the more I'm like, what would they have been thinking to see this happen and Moses not be able to enter in, you know?
Seth: And I think if you were to be reading this by, as a Hebrew reader-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or as a modern reader, you're left with that question.
David: Right.
Seth: The ... You don't have an answer to that question at the end of the book of Exodus.
David: No, it doesn't give it to you at all.
Seth: You're-
David: It just leaves you on a cliffhanger.
Seth: You're suppos- you're supposed to feel as if something is unexplained.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So as, even as you listen to the end of this podcast, you should be feeling, "What's happening here? Why can't Moses be in God's presence anymore? And is this really what God had intended, that God's presence would fall in a tabernacle, but nobody was able to come in with him? Is that a fulfillment of Exodus 3, that the Lord will come down-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and be with his people? Is this really a fulfillment of, like, uh, what ... If you remember back in the Jethro episode, and he appoints those 70 elders.
David: Right.
Seth: If you fast, if you read the book of Numbers-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and tells you about that experience, it, uh, says that the Holy Spirit fell on those 70 elders, and they all start prophesying-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the middle of the camp. So you have the Holy Spirit falling and indwelling all these particular people, but not the whole camp, and that even then, Moses can't enter in, even though he's filled with the Holy Spirit and obeying the laws. Like, you should feel really confused.
David: And disappointed.
Seth: And disappointed-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... at this moment. So explain, so like, what happens now? What should, what should we, as a modern reader who wants to dwell in the uncomfortableness of this text, think about?
David: Oh, man. I don't know. That's a good question. Um, I, I, I guess I would probably say, like, don't we have a bit of that now? Like, don't, don't we have, um, don't, don't we as Christians experience that a bit now, where it's, um, you know, I was, I was told that I'd be filled with the presence of God and that, like, Jesus obeyed all the commands for me, and that he would come and indwell me, and that I would live i- in his presence forever, but school sucks, and work's hard, and I don't really feel like God's near me, and things are difficult, and it doesn't really feel like I'm in the presence of God, and like, I'm really disappointed [laughs] and confused.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like there seems to be, like, a limbo for us, too, that it's like we were, w- we're, it, w- we're told that we're going to go into th- the God's presence, that we'll live with him forever, but we're not there yet. There's something-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... that is yet to happen. So I don't know. I feel like that's the, the, like, new covenant version of this uncomfortable-
Seth: Right
David: ... part where-
Seth: God's already present with us in our hearts-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but not quite yet here in the new heavens and the new earth where he recreates all things-
David: Yes
Seth: ... and we're living with him forever.
David: Seeing him face to face, just like-
Seth: Right
David: ... Moses wanted to.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, yeah, we see his glory. It's like we don't get that yet. It's coming, but it's not yet. And so we, we kind of dwell in that uncomfortable, you know, spot right now.
Seth: So what's left, then? It's like we're left in, in this tension between what's already been given to us and what's not yet fulfilled.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: What are we waiting for as Christians, and then what would Moses have been waiting for?
David: Mm.
Seth: Maybe let's ask, answer the Moses question first.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, what would Moses have been waiting for?
David: A way in.
Seth: A way in.
David: Yeah, he'd be, he'd be asking for a way in. He wouldn't go, "Oh, I can't go in. All right, never mind." Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... no, no, no, no, no. It's too pretty to not go in. Like-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's too good to not be in that place.
Seth: And so hopefully this is redeeming the Book of Leviticus for our listeners as you're listening.
David: It ... Right.
Seth: The way in is the book of Leviticus.
David: Of Leviticus, yes.
Seth: That's the, that's, that's the s- that's the solution to the tension.
David: How do I dwell with God?
Seth: Be holy.
David: [laughs] Be holy.
Seth: Be holy.
David: Right.
Seth: Celebrate the feasts.
David: Which is what Leviticus tells us, yeah.
Seth: Remember God's works among you. Like-
David: Atone for your sins
Seth: ... atone for your sins.
David: Yep. S- uh, yeah, like purify your bodies and your s- your places. Like, make, make this whole place that I'm trying to dwell a holy place that we can live together. And, um, and that's what Leviticus does for us. It shows us how to do that, um, and what's ... Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
Seth: Yeah, so and I think then as Christians, what do we do in that tension, is that we see it, the Le- Book of Leviticus is Jesus Christ.
David: Yes.
Seth: So when you come into ... Like, sh- you see God's goodness and his glory and say, "I want access to that," but you can't get in.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: The way you get in is Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: He fulfills the Book of Leviticus. He's holy like you are supposed to be holy. He is the atoning sacrifice.
David: Yep.
Seth: He is the better Sabbath rest.
David: Yep.
Seth: He's the better Feast of Tabernacles. He's the better feast of, uh, every feast of-
David: All the, all the feasts
Seth: ... all the feasts that are in here.
David: Seven feasts.
Seth: The seven feasts, like he is the way into God's presence.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he's also the way into the new heavens and the new earth that are recreated-
David: Yes
Seth: ... when the Garden of Eden becomes the world that we live in right now.
David: Yes.
Seth: And I think it's also probably important to pick up again the Garden of Eden imagery-
David: It is
Seth: ... here.
David: Yes.
Seth: Because what is the tabernacle supposed to look like?
David: A little portable Garden of Eden.
Seth: A little portable Garden of Eden, and after being exiled-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... from the Garden of Eden-
David: What happened? [laughs]
Seth: ... being exiled into Egypt, there is this other story, this other theme here, not of just, like, sin and holiness, but of exile and returning home.
David: Right.
Seth: Israel has been exiled from the land of E- from the Garden of Eden for a long time.
David: Yep.
Seth: The tabernacle's built. Like, they can get back to the Garden of Eden.
David: Right.
Seth: Yet not yet.
David: Yep, just like in Genesis 4, or the end of Genesis 3, I guess, there's a cherubim literally, [laughs] like woven into the fabric-
Seth: Right
David: ... guarding the, the presence of God. Like, you can't enter in. You can't come through this door, just like, um, Adam and Eve couldn't enter back through the door into the Garden of Eden because, um, there was this g-... guardian, like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... guarding it, and you, you couldn't make your way back in. And, uh, w- then we see the next story, which is really interesting, Cain and Abel, what are they doing? They're sacrificing at the door of Garden of the Gar- of the, uh, to the Garden of Eden.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: And, and so what do we get after the barring here in, in the end of Exodus? It's like there's another door we can't enter in. We're, we're exiled. Leviticus.
Seth: Right.
David: We have, like, Cain and Abel again-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... making sacrifices.
Seth: And what's crazy then is the Book of Leviticus works.
David: Yes.
Seth: So the ways in which we enter God's presence, like, the prescribed ways of entering God's presence actually work and allow us access.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But limited access.
David: Very l- very limited access.
Seth: Limited access.
David: Yeah. What we, we'll find that in Leviticus, only one priest, one person, gets to go into the Holy of Holies, God, where God's presence actually dwells above the mercy seat, the Ark of the Covenant, and he only gets to go in once a year, and it's not a very, it, like, uh... like, I don't know what the right word is, like, a, a very, like, d- joyful-
Seth: It's not-
David: ... experience. [laughs]
Seth: You're not talking as with a friend.
David: No. You- you-
Seth: It's, it's, it's-
David: You're like, "Okay, so do this, this, this, and this so you don't die when you come in," because we are-
Seth: And then atone for the sins of Israel, and then get out of there.
David: Get out of there, yeah.
Seth: And then, so, like, not only is it limited in scope, the people who can experience it-
David: Right
Seth: ... but we also notice the inability of the nation of Israel to do all the Book of Leviticus has to say.
David: That's right.
Seth: So that Holy Spirit-empowered generosity, that ability to complete the tabernacle, like, wears off.
David: Yes.
Seth: And it's probably, probably the wrong, wrong way to say it, but, like, it doesn't, it wears off.
David: Right.
Seth: People can't keep up.
David: They, they fail the way in. They, they, they're, God gives them a way in, and they, they fail to, um, follow it-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... basically.
Seth: Yeah, they, they fail to follow it. They can't keep doing it over and over again.
David: Right.
Seth: So they're always excluded from some way from the Garden of Eden.
David: Yep. They're still outside.
Seth: They're always in exile-
David: Yes
Seth: ... still, and that will never r- get resolved in the Old Testament.
David: Nope.
Seth: The more... Even when the tabernacle is turned into a temple, the people try to come in, the temple is destroyed.
David: Yep.
Seth: The Ark of the Covenant is sent off to a pagan city.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, the exile, like, people can't enter in, and the Garden of Eden gets g- kept getting thrown further-
David: Thrown away. [laughs]
Seth: ... and further out of their reach.
David: Yes.
Seth: So it's, [laughs] so, like, what are we waiting for? Like, we're waiting for Jesus-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to give us the Holy Spirit to actually obey the laws consistently.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're waiting for Jesus's death and resurrection that tears the veil-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... of the temple so that God's presence isn't-
David: Can come
Seth: ... something we go into-
David: Into
Seth: ... but that it's something that comes into us-
David: Yes
Seth: ... because we are God's temple.
David: Right.
Seth: We are the Gardens of Eden that are roaming the world-
David: Yep
Seth: ... spreading the kingdom of God as it comes.
David: Made in His image.
Seth: Made in His image.
David: Yep.
Seth: Like, that's what's kind of remarkable about what happens in Jesus Christ-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... is that the, the tension that we feel at the end of books of Exodus is-
David: And then through the rest of the Old Testament
Seth: ... through the rest of the Old Testament-
David: Is finally resolved
Seth: ... is resolved.
David: Yeah. [gentle music]
Seth: So as a way to kind of sum up the Book of Exodus-
David: Yeah, now that we're done
Seth: ... now that we're [laughs] totally done with the Book of E- I loved it. I d-
David: It was so good.
Seth: I said that-
David: It was so much fun
Seth: ... exasperatedly, but I loved it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Where did you find yourself worshiping Jesus the most? Like, what just, for you personally, most encouraging, most edifying, like, man, Jesus is more clear to me?
David: Yeah. I actually think, and I don't know if it's 'cause it's more recent, or, but I was like, you know, I was, like, skimming my brain. You asked me this question right before we went to a little break here, and so it gave me time to think, and I was, like, skimming and skimming, thinking, thinking, and I was like, man, I think it was right here, honestly, where we talked about the depths of our, um, like, our sin and our hard hearts, which is f- like, a theme throughout the whole Book of Exodus, that, like, no matter what God does, uh, the people of Israel grumble. You know, like, they are staring at miracles. They're being saved. They're being fed. They're being guided. God's meeting them, and they're just grumbling the whole time, and they're, they're hard-hearted. They, they're stiff-necked. They break his laws over and over again, and yet God continues to, like, be faithful to his side of the, the covenant. And then we see here that in order for him to actually fulfill his covenant with his people, he has to do it all. He has to-
Seth: Right
David: ... he has to, um, take the justice off of the people and onto something else. Um, he has to extend a mercy that they didn't deserve, and then he has to actually, like, embody the people to fulfill their end of the covenant.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And, like, and to know that that's what Jesus does for me, that he took my judgment, extended to me mercy, and then fills me with himself to actually be able to obey him and believe in him and have faith in him every day, is just, like, the most glorious thing I've ever thought of.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, it's like the, knowing that I was Pharaoh, and God made me a tabernacle that he could live in, is just way too good of news. Like-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... so that's been, for me, that's been probably the coolest thing, is from a hard heart to an indwelt temple.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. What about you?
Seth: I think, I think for me it's all the way back at the beginning, Genesis 3 and 4.
David: Okay, so I was really recent.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You're going old school. I got it, yeah.
Seth: Genesis 3 and 4, where-
David: So good
Seth: ... God gives his name.
David: Mm.
Seth: And he just says, "I am with you."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "What's my name?"
David: "I am with you."
Seth: "I am with you."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And I think particularly in this season of just suffering, some- my wife and I, we lost a kid.
David: Mm.
Seth: We talked about, I talked about that a couple times on here, and we're pregnant again, and it's really hard.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And a lot of anxiety, but also a lot of excitement, and it feels a lot of times like people just don't understand that. It can feel really isolating or just difficult to talk about-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... or just difficult to come into work. And to know that God is with me-
David: Mm
Seth: ... in that is probably the most profound thing. And I remember back in Genesis 3:4, God says, he says, "I saw the s- your suffering. I saw the affliction of the people of Israel. I saw their oppression, and I am coming down."
David: Mm.
Seth: And then to prove that, he has this extended conversation with Moses where he reveals his name, "I am who I am." He gives Moses these three signs, remember? The stick-
David: Yep
Seth: ... turning to a snake, the hand turning to leprosy and then not, and the Nile turning to blood. And as I kept thinking about that, I was like, "Why is the Nile turning to blood so powerful?"
David: Mm.
Seth: "Why is that the one that's convincing?" Because he was only supposed to do the next miracle-
David: Oh, right, only if no one else believes, then turn the Nile to blood.
Seth: Then t- then-
David: Right
Seth: ... pick a cup of water from the Nile and pour it out. Like, why is that so convincing?
David: Mm.
Seth: And as I kept thinking about it, I realized, man, I think it's bec- convincing because those elders that he's performing those signs to are responsible for a nation mourning.
Seth: For a nation grieving.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And if you're a desert s- if you're a slave in the desert nation of Egypt, where do you get your water?
David: The Nile.
Seth: You get it from the Nile.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Mothers every day go back and drink water from a mass grave.
David: Ugh, yeah.
Seth: Like, you're bathing your children in what must felt like a literal blood bath.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, the Nile for them was this place of death and blood and savagery.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when God picks up the water and pours it out as blood, what does it say?
David: I see you.
Seth: I see you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I know your pain. I am not far off.
David: Wow.
Seth: And I am here. I am with you.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I have come down. And what is Jesus' name?
David: Emmanuel.
Seth: God with us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We do not have a high priest, not able to sympathize with our weaknesses-
David: Mm
Seth: ... but in every way was tempted as we are, yet without sin.
David: Mm.
Seth: I remember, uh, talking to, um, just writing s- a lot of thoughts about Reuben afterwards, and I kept thinking at one point, "I just don't know if God knows this pain."
David: Mm.
Seth: You know?
David: Right.
Seth: I just, like, He only, like, He lost His son, but only for three days.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I remember there's this moment when you have to choose your burial plot for your son-
David: Right
Seth: ... for, for somebody. Like, you choose the cemetery, and they slide this big folder to you, and then you have to choose the number. And, uh, like, it's, like, 16 little squares in, like, a, a bigger square. You have to point and say, like, "He'll be buried in slot 11." Like, it's this awful, awful experience, and, um, God did that, too.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He looked over the world, and He had to choose a hillside in Jerusalem.
David: Mm.
Seth: And He put His finger on history's page and said, "Oh, he'll be buried, he'll be buried there." And I was like, "He knows."
David: Wow.
Seth: He knows. So I think that was where I-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... just worshiped the most.
David: So good. And just through it, through the, through the whole book of Exodus, you see time and time again how God is I Am, how He is with them, just through the worst.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, through the worst. And, and then to see that Jesus does that to, an just a completely exponential degree, that He actually comes in flesh and blood and is with us and takes our, our sin and our shame and our death, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... oh, it's just so good. Well, man, Exodus has been awesome. Um, I'm really-
Seth: I'm excited for Psalms
David: ... excited for the Psalms, really excited. We hope you guys are, too. Um, we hope you have a great Christmas. Yeah.
Seth: Happy Christmas.
David: Merry Christmas. Um-
Seth: Happy New Year.
David: Happy New Year, all the, all those things. Um, we are going to go put our heads in the book of Psalms, and, uh, so go figure out how to see Jesus in that, and it's gonna be so much fun.
Seth: It will be.
David: I'm really excited about it. Uh, a little teaser-
Seth: Teaser?
David: ... will, will be, uh, I mean, how do you... So what's, what's, what are the imprecatory psalms that, Seth, like-
Seth: Imprecatory psalms are when David is crying out for justice against his enemies.
David: Right, so, like, dash their kids against the rocks.
Seth: Yes.
David: And, like, you're like, you ever, have you ever come to one of those and you're like, "I can't pray that." [laughs] Like-
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: Like, how do you see Jesus in a psalm that talks about dashing babies against rocks?
Seth: Yes.
David: We'll f- try to figure that one out.
Seth: We'll try to figure that out. [laughs] I don't have an answer.
David: I don't have an answer yet, but, we'll, we'll figure it out. So anyway, um, that's a terrible way to end for a merry Christmas. Um-
Seth: Merry Christmas.
David: Merry Christmas. [laughs]
Seth: Dash your children against the rocks. [laughs]
David: It's so bad. But, um, anyway, this has been so fun. Um, we wanna thank everyone who's been listening. Um, we, we've, we, we have over 10,000, um, people who've listened to this, this podcast.
Seth: We, we hit over 10,000?
David: Yeah, we did, yeah.
Seth: That's awesome.
David: And so we just want you guys to know how much we appreciate you listening. Um, we, we love doing this, and we, it, we j- we just love that-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... you guys seem to be, um, um-
Seth: Continue to share us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Continue to rate us.
David: Yes.
Seth: It really helps-
David: Really does help
Seth: ... on iTunes-
David: Yep
Seth: ... if you actually like us.
David: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And, like, say it with five stars or four stars.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But not lower than-
David: But, but definitely five stars
Seth: ... but, but definitely five stars.
David: [laughs]
Seth: And a comment really helps, too.
David: Yeah, it does. So anyway, thank you guys so much. Have a great Christmas, and we will see you next year in the book of Psalms. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of Scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
