Intro: [gentle music] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: All right, and welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Uh, we have a super special episode for you today, don't we, Seth?
Seth: So special.
David: Yes. Very, very excited. Uh, we have with us today Andrew Wilson, uh, all the way from England. How are you, Andrew?
Andrew: I'm really well, thank you.
David: Yeah.
Andrew: It's great to be here.
David: Absolutely. Uh, yeah, so Andrew is, uh, the teaching pastor, uh, at, uh, King's Church London. Uh, he's the co-author of Echoes of Exodus. Uh, the subtitle of that book is Tracing Themes of Redemption Through Scripture. Um-
Seth: Which makes him a great guest for this podcast.
David: Which makes him a great guest-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... 'cause we're in Exodus right now.
Seth: [laughs]
David: And so it's perfect. Uh, and he, he's also written, um, several other books, uh, one of which is, uh, The Life We Never Expected: Hopeful Reflections on the Challenges of Parenting Children with Special Needs, which is a really special book. Um, and, uh, you can check him out. He also blogs over at thinktheology.co.uk. Uh, he's such a, I don't know... I, I've respected Andrew for such a long time, and-
Seth: I kinda feel like he's like a little celebrity in my world.
David: Uh, yeah [laughs] if you wanna say.
Seth: [laughs] Yeah.
David: I was sending David all these GIFs-
Andrew: So, so you made me feel so welcome
David: ... of Will Ferrell jumping up and down as Elf, like so excited that you were gonna be on our podcast. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
Andrew: [laughs]
David: So, um, so Andrew, um, before we start and jump into what we're, we're, what we're gonna be talking about today, which is, uh, Exodus 32 and the golden calf-
Seth: The golden calf
David: ... uh, would you mind telling us a little bit about Echoes of Exodus and what you guys were trying to achieve in that book, uh, and maybe a little bit about, uh, what you talk about in there with the musicality of scripture?
Andrew: Yeah, sure. I, I, um, I... This, this book came out because I was reading a series of online articles by a friend of mine, Alastair Roberts, with whom I've co-written the book, and he was giving all sorts of examples of ways in which the Exodus theme reappears through the Bible, in ways that I just, it would blow my mind as I was coming across them. Some of them I'd seen before, uh, kind of more obvious ones like the Exodus in the gospel story, but a lot of them I'd not really given any thought to. I'd never noticed them, like the Exodus in the Elijah and Elisha story, or the Exodus in Genesis or Ruth or anywhere else. And, um, and I just thought this would be a really great thing for a wider audience to get, so I asked him can I, like translate it for a popular audience, and so that's what we did. And one of the things that, um, as you mentioned, one of the things we did was to use this theme of music, which I'm increasingly seeing as a really significant, not just metaphor, but sort of linguistic way of framing what the Bible is, and even Christian belief. I think there's some really interesting ways in which music is a better, um, s- metaphorical set of tools to use when describing the Bible than e- spatial images or even narrative images. Because stories, um, you know, if something gets repeated in the story, it would be seen as an illusion or a sort of deliberate re-enactment of something. If that happens in a Shakespeare play where you get something that happens early on, then happens similarly later on, it, it's not sort of, you know, it's, things are chronologically developed, but it isn't, um, it, it's very much a, a recapitulation of the same idea, and it, each event is different in that sense. One of them is just similar to the other. Whereas when you're doing music, you can get the same musical theme comes back again and again in different keys, in different modes.
David: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: It, sometimes you can get the, the treble turns into the bass, and you get... A lot, obviously a lot of pieces of music do that.
Seth: Right.
Andrew: And in many ways script-
Seth: I'm just thinking of the Star Wars theme.
David: [laughs] The Star Wars theme.
Seth: Whatever the music comes in-
Andrew: But, but that, that kind of thing can happen again and again
Seth: ... you know they're coming back. It's like an emotional response. It's not just like a story recapitulating. It's like an emotional response.
David: Dun, dun, dun, dun.
Seth: Dun, dun, dun.
David: Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew: And that's, that's exactly it. And that kind, uh, the fact that it's like that, um, makes it a really good image for, for the Bible, because sometimes you get an Exodus story and what seems like a really, you know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.
David: [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
Andrew: And then sometimes it might be da, ra, ra, ra, ra. And you know, it can be dark or light or brooding or inspirational or whatever. And I just, we, we found that really helpful and just give a bit of thought, I think, to the way in which the kind of s- metaphors you use shape the way that you think about an issue.
David: Right.
Andrew: And there's all sorts of examples of that. So music is the way that we like to think about it, and that's why Echoes.
David: Right. And so, and so this is the Spoken Gospel podcast, where we're trying to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So, um, s- these musical themes, they come back in the, in the New Testament too, and they, they find, I guess, their crescendo in Christ, right?
Andrew: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I love that.
Andrew: Yeah.
David: Yeah.
Andrew: And that's, that's the... I think that's the, the, the idea that if you think about the, if you think about it as a symphony, and then the sort of, the moment when the choir, you know, in, in Beethoven's Ninth, the moment when the choir comes in at the end, uh, for the last 10 or 12 minutes of the whole piece, is this sort of massive thing the whole piece has been building to, and all the themes come together and so on. And that's obviously in some ways the four Gospels, and then it resolves in r- Revelation, the new heavens and the earth in the end, at, at the end of the piece. And I think seeing it that way, you, you, you've then got the Gospels bring together all kinds of different strands of melodies and themes and key changes that have been building for thousands of years, and brings them all together in Christ. And, and in some, that's one way of looking at, you know, all, in, in Christ all of God's promises are yes and amen. It's like in Him, all of these things that we have been waiting for have come together perfectly and been beautifully expressed in the, the highlight of the story.
David: Oh, wow. I love that so much.
Seth: That's so helpful, even for me as a preacher. Like, I think when I tell, I'll retell stories like, "This is repeated here, here, here, and here."
David: Yeah.
Seth: And it always feels a little, like, flat.
David: Mm.
Seth: But to then say like, "No, these are actually sung in different pitches throughout the redemptive story so that when you finally come to Christ, you have a specific response," that's super helpful for me, actually, as I think through that. I'm preaching through the Book of Exodus right now-
David: Mm
Seth: ... for our student ministry, and I actually gave all the leaders your book to help them process through it maybe.
Andrew: Oh, wow.
Seth: Yeah, so.
Andrew: Oh, wow.
Seth: Yeah. And so Andrew, uh, when someone picks up Echoes of Exodus, like what's the, what's the takeaway that you kind of hope that they would, uh, walk away with?
Andrew: Well, I, i- in many ways, I think the fact that the, to see the gospel in a new way, see what Jesus has done in a new way, and very closely connected to that, to see the integrationism, joined up-ness, and beauty of scripture, the unity of the Bible.
David: Yeah.
Andrew: Um, and, but, and those two things really are, are kind of the same sort of thing. So, because in a way, if you see the unity of scripture, then you can be reading the story of Lot and thinking, "This has got nothing to do with me. This is just a weird story-
David: Mm
Andrew: ... about a guy whose wife gets turned into a condiment."
David: [laughs]
Andrew: And that's a sort of strange, it's a really strange narrative. And then when you read the story of Lot as an Exodus story, you realize this is about a plague coming at night, and angels coming to a door, and people retreating inside the door, and then being delivered from a city that's being destroyed, and then running out into the wilderness, and then some of them wanting to turn back, and as a result, being judged, and others then persevering and pressing on. And y- and then you think, "Hang on, in that case, that story is like the same as my story, which is that I am somebody who has pushed away God from my life, but eventually God has come into my life and found a way of protecting me and saving me from myself, and rescued me in the middle of the night from this city that is being destroyed all around me. And in spite of my dithering, has brought me out into a land flowing with milk and honey in Christ." And you, you can, it just helps you join together parts of the Bible in ways that you haven't thought of, but it also opens your eyes to the wonder of what Jesus has done for you.
David: Yes. Oh my goodness.
Seth: And I will also refer to my sin as dithering from now on.
David: Yes, absolutely.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Oh my goodness.
Andrew: Do you not have that word, is dithering not a word?
David: Oh, we know what it is. We just, we, we-
Seth: We just don't use it [laughs]
David: We, we use it nigh, um, uh, fortnight. Um-
Seth: [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: This is gonna be a strange request before we transition.
David: Okay.
Seth: But Andrew, can you give us your best version of an American accent?
David: Oh, man.
Seth: [laughs]
Andrew: What's this?
David: Dangerous request.
Seth: Let me hear it.
Andrew: Sure. Um, okay. So, um-
Seth: [laughs]
Andrew: I was wondering if perhaps the most useful thing might be for me to simply do a, a kind of generic American-
Seth: That's good.
David: This is so good. That's really good.
Seth: This is so good.
Andrew: But, but of course, if we were to move down to the South-
David: Oh. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
Andrew: ... then I'd have to be a little bit more like somebody who sounds an English person. I might not be able to talk.
David: That's pretty good.
Seth: That's the most-
Andrew: Yeah, I don't know.
David: That's well done. Wow.
Seth: Wow.
Andrew: I lived in Ok- I thought you guys would be more Southern than you are. When I went to Oklahoma, I was expecting more of a Southern accent.
David: Oh, right. No, we're a little more Midwestern.
Seth: Midwestern, yeah.
David: Yeah, but I also didn't grow up here, so I get an excuse.
Seth: Yeah, that's true. You grew up, yeah, you grew up, uh, overseas. Yeah.
David: Mm-hmm. All right. Well, let's, uh, let's transition into looking at, uh, Exodus 32. [gentle music]
Seth: So Moses is still up in the mountain.
David: Right.
Seth: He's been up there for almost 40 days, and the people are, um, disappointed that he has not come back down [laughs] the mountain.
David: [laughs]
Andrew: Where is this guy?
Seth: He, where is he? What's he doing? And so they go up to Aaron and ask him, say, "We don't know what's happened to him, so we want to worship a god. We wanna worship-
David: Or something
Seth: ... or something." And so Aaron takes all their gold and all their jewels-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and puts it into a fire. And we're told in verse, uh, four, that he actually fashions it with a grading tool, and he's gonna deny that.
David: Deny that later. It just popped out of the flame later.
Seth: He's like, "I don't know. What, what are you talking about?"
David: [laughs]
Seth: And then, um, as they come out, the, all of the people of Israel say, "Look, these are the gods that delivered us." And then Aaron, seeing the response of the people, decides to make an altar, and then sacrifice.
David: And says, "Tomorrow we'll have a feast to Yahweh."
Seth: To Yahweh. So, so weird.
David: Yeah. Keep going.
Seth: So, yeah, so yeah, no, I, I put, I, I underlined that this is, like, the name, the covenant name-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... of Yahweh, the name that Moses learned in Exodus 3.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, this is-
David: This is weird
Seth: ... this is a feast to Yahweh, the golden calf.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they rose up early the next day, and they offer all these burnt offerings.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And they offer peace offerings, and they sit down to eat and drink, and they rise up to play.
David: Right.
Seth: So one thing that we should probably notice here is they've broken the first three commandments. [laughs]
David: Yep. Whoops.
Seth: They, they made other, they made idols, they've made, they've, uh, worshiped other gods, they've taken the na- the Lord's name in vain. I also think they probably broke the fourth commandment here as well, because they are t- we're told that they're sitting down to eat and drink, and they're rising up to play, which are these, like, Sabbath day activities. And in addition to that, they're offering sacrifices as well, although they're not offering any sin offerings.
David: Hmm.
Seth: If you notice that, they're only offering peace offerings and, uh, burnt offerings. No sin offerings. Makes sense.
David: Interesting.
Seth: Anyway, so I think they're breaking all the commandments that relate to God. And then Moses, um-
David: Or God hears about what's going on-
Seth: God hears
David: ... and tells Moses that, uh, all the people are committing heinous sins, and, um, uh, "And my anger is burning hot against them. I'm gonna strike out against them." And Moses intercedes and says, "No, don't let your anger burn hot. Um, you know, remember your covenant," right? And so God relents. And-
Seth: Right
David: ... and, and Moses takes the tablets down on the mountain, down the mountain, sees what he's do- sees what the people are doing, and he ends up embodying what, the wrath of God.
Seth: Right, the same word that-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... burn hot. God's anger burns hot.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Moses' anger burns hot. Uh, and then Aaron says, "Don't let your b- anger burn hot, Moses."
David: Yeah. Now Aaron is repeating what Moses had said.
Seth: Right. "Don't, don't worry about it. I just, like, happened to, it, it just popped out."
David: Yeah.
Seth: "It just popped out."
David: "I don't know what happened." Yeah.
Seth: Which I thought was an interesting, like, allusion to the way that Adam, like, blame shifted, um-
David: Oh, sure. Yeah
Seth: ... his own sin in the Garden.
David: Right.
Seth: He said, "No, no, it wasn't, I, I didn't have re- any responsibility here." Uh, anyway, then they, uh, Moses embodies again the wrath of the Lord-
David: Right
Seth: ... even after praying for grace and mercy.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then gathers the Levites, kills 3,000 people-
David: Right
Seth: ... um, and then makes atonement and a sacrifice to the Lord.
David: Goes back up to the mountain, to the Lord-
Seth: Mm-hmm
David: ... to try to make atonement, even offering himself, saying, "Blot me out of your, of your, of your book, Lord." And God says, "No, I'll, I'll, I'll hold the people responsible for sin who are supposed to be responsible for sin." And thenSo, um, do you wanna point out anything else in this passage that we kinda just gl- glossed over or something interesting that we should be pointing out? Yeah, Andrew, that's good.
Andrew: Um, I mean, I, I, I think I, I think you get a lot of the things that I think are most important to it. I lo- I think the, the point you made about the fall story, like, the, the number of echoes of the fall story, really, the blame shifting, the, uh, the so- the fact that God is present, but that we're immediately gonna ask for something more than that, and we're gonna break the direct commandment-
David: Mm-hmm
Andrew: ... he's already given us. And then in doing it, we're going to... I mean, the, the lang- I find it hilarious. You read Aaron just, you know, "Then I threw the stuff into the fire, and out came this calf."
David: [laughs]
Andrew: Like, how on earth can you frame what you did like that? But it is no more ridiculous than the woman you gave me made me do it sort of thing.
David: Wow. Yeah.
Andrew: Um, and obviously that, and in a sense, that does, it serves that way as Israel's fall narrative. So it's not just the fall of Aaron, it's the fall of the nation as a whole. Um, and, and is the, just as soon as you have, you know, the commission now go be fruitful and multiply, you then have a fall. You have, "Right, now I'm appointing you to be kings and priests, and go out and effectively rule the world and serve them on my behalf," and again, immediately there's a fall narrative. So that, I think, sets us up for the pattern that over and over again will take place. And it's quite interesting when you see the whole Bible through that lens, you realize we get multiple deliverances of the people of God, and each one is followed by a fall. Except one, which is where we get the, the coming of Jesus, and then we get the new image of God. So Adam is the image of God, Israel bears the image of God, Israel after exile, David the King bears the image of God and then he sins with Bath- Bathsheba. Israel is restored to rightful image and coming out from exile, but sins again by marrying foreign women. All these themes, but it's actually only in Christ that you have somebody bear it saying, "I am, this is now my beloved Son, with whom I'm well pleased," and he hasn't fallen. He hasn't made a fall.
David: Wow.
Andrew: Um, and that, I think, as you see, the, the sort of the exception is that, again, a bit like music, isn't it?
David: Yeah.
Andrew: That when you break the theme that you've established, it can sound surprising.
David: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: And that's exactly what I think happens when you read the Jesus story in light of the, the golden calf, because that is the one place in scripture where there is no fall to follow the revelation of God's image.
David: Wow. I, I've never looked at it like that. That's, that's amazing. Um, so, so one of the things that I've always, I've always tried to wrestle with here, and, and, and it came up when, when Seth was kinda narrativizing the text, and I, and I jumped in and said, "Or something," whenever he talked about like, you know, Moses was up on the mountain for a while, and then they wanted to worship something else. And I was like, "Well, or something." Uh, because there's this language here is like, um, "Make us a god to go up before us." I- is that, Andrew, do you think that's intercession language, that they were wanting, there's this big scary god on the mountain and they want a go-between? Uh, they don't trust Moses to be that anymore. Maybe he's dead on the mountain or, or do you think it was more of like, "Give us something to worship"? Was it just importing Egyptian pagan practices? Why do you think they built the golden calf to begin with?
Andrew: Yeah. It's, um, it's... I, I've read it... I mean, I think when you first read it, you assume it's a false god.
David: Right.
Andrew: Um, I mean, it was, it is a false god in the sense that it's an image. But you assume it's, uh, when I first read it, I thought it was an idol in the sense that, um, an Asherah pole or a statue to Baal would be an idol. And as you read the story more carefully, you realize, no, this is, they are creating this god as, as a physical representation of Yahweh, aren't they?
David: Yeah.
Andrew: They are saying, "Here are your, here is your god or your gods, your Elohim, who brought you out of the land of Egypt." And so Y- Aaron's expectation and the people's expectation is that this is a physical representation of the invisible God. And that in that sense, it's more the Second Commandment than the First Commandment.
David: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: Although it's the First Commandment as well. But you know, it's the i- it's the making of an image that's the key issue, I think. Um-
Seth: This is idolatry, not polytheism. That's like, that's what, yeah.
Andrew: Right. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it.
Seth: Yeah.
Andrew: But, but I, but of course the line is, the line is very difficult to draw because the, the very point about m- the prohibition of images is in part that Israel has spent four centuries in Egypt where deities are visible, and therefore to make a visible image is not simply to unfortunately mis-worship the right god, it's actually to create a, it is in that sense, a different god. Because as soon as you make an image of God, you are massively demeaning him and blaspheming him, really, uh, relative to who he is. So it's, it's an interesting one. He, they... I think what they think they're doing is simply making a visible image of the invisible God. But what's actually happening from God's point of view is they are setting up an entirely different deity. But I do find the line you me- mentioned there, "As for this Moses, we don't know what's happened to him," really interesting because clearly it's a, it's not just governed by, "I want visibility," it's governed by impatience.
David: Yeah.
Andrew: It's simply by, "I, I want a god on my terms and on my schedule."
David: Mm-hmm.
Andrew: And I think that's got a lot of application even for the way that people today try and distort and diminish the sovereignty or the beauty of the otherness of God into saying, "I want somebody who is gonna be in space and in time the way I want him." So there is a, because there's both of those, there's spatial and temporal dimensions here. Like, "I want it now, but I also want it visible right here."
David: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrew: And I think both of those things, uh, really tell us a lot about the way that idolatry works in our hearts and how we try and fashion idols, uh, you know, after our own image.
David: Oh, interesting. Um, so I, I can't help but think about this whole, uh, tension w- we're talking about. There's these, like, there's this conflation of, you know, this is a, a visible representation of the invisible God. Uh, we want it now, we wanna bring it to our space, and then it's like, "This is the, these are the gods, the Elohim that brought, brought you up out of the land of Egypt. Tomorrow we'll have a feast to Yahweh." There's this conflation of, of Yahweh and an image and, um, it's breaking Second Commandment and it's condemned. But, um, uh, in Christ, we have an image of the invisible God, and it's perfect, and it resolves-
Andrew: Mm-hmm
David: ... the, the, the, the music that, that's kind of running into a cacophony here and becomes beautiful. I mean, how do you see those two things working together?
Seth: Yeah, they literally say, too, like, the-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... it's like, "I hear the sound of singing," but it's like this really strange-
David: Oh, that's interesting
Seth: ... it sounds like it's like a battle cry, right?
David: Yeah, Joshua, like, comes near and thinks it's the sound of war, you know, but it's really the sound of singing. Yeah. Anyway, Andrew, what's your take on, like, the, the image of Christ in this and, like, uh, bearing the image of God?
Andrew: Are you talking about Christ as the, as the calf, do you mean?
David: Or, or, well, or Jesus as the, I guess maybe the antitype to, to this-
Andrew: Yes, yes, yes
David: ... right.
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. And then not that you think Jesus is a golden calf. Um-
David: [laughs] He's like, "And I'll be hanging up now."
Seth: We've been, we've, I've been trying-
Andrew: [laughs]
Seth: ... to pull out David's idolatry for years now.
Andrew: [laughs]
Seth: So this is good that you've just been able to call it for what it is. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Andrew: Well, I think this is, this is the strangeness of, um, of Old Testament worship, isn't it? That there is, that, that we have a very clear sense that the people of God want somebody or something tangible by, by whom and in whom to experience the worship of God. That that is something that Israel con- continually falls on.
David: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Andrew: And at one sense, you, in one sense the Old Testament provides a sort of emphatic, no, you must not have that. And yet when God becomes flesh, then there is, in becoming flesh, he is giving a, a, well, a yes to the question that people have been asking, which is we would like to have a person in, or a, a physical entity in whom we can worship God.
David: Yeah.
Andrew: And so there's, there's sort of a no and a yes, and I think probably we, we would as Christians frame it as a no because of yes, as in, no, you are not to worship that or that or that or that or that, because they would be inadequate images, but if you really wanna know what God truly looks like, then he looks like this in Jesus. So in that sense, Jesus is an anti-type, not just of the golden calf, but of every physical representation made by anybody in any religion, in a sense. So anybody, you know, somebody makes a, a deity in a, in a, in a home in India, and they put that deity in the corner of their home. That, in a sense, is evoking and, and is witnessing to the fact that human beings want to be able to access the divine and to have something or somebody physically there with whom they can commune as if communing with the deity. And it is only in Christ that those deepest wishes we have are fulfilled. And I think in that sense, it's like Jesus is the anti-type of, if I can call him this, idols everywhere.
David: Right.
Andrew: Um, but, and there are senses in which he is in fa- he is the idol of God. In a, in a very literal sense, he is the physical image in whom-
David: Mm-hmm
Andrew: ... the deity is located. I think that's a, um... And, and of course there's a sense in which human beings are, you know, 'cause what you, that's biblical language from beginning to end, isn't it? That, that we human beings are the image, and that's why the Jews don't have an image in their most holy place, and the Romans are astonished when they discover that. But it's because for, for the Jews and for Christians, human beings and the true human Christ are, in that sense, what the image of God really looks like. So it's a, it's a beautiful fulfillment of that desire.
Seth: That's helpful for me. That's helpful for me to understand, too, why God is so angry as well. He calls them a stiff-necked people. He call, he says like, "My anger is burning hot against you." I think this is helpful for me, like filling out the reasons why, the reasons for God's anger-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the response, and then Moses' prayer in response. So I always feel like I have to like convince people of why God is angry-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... and why he's justifiably angry. But the idea that like there are, there is an image of Christ-
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, there is an image of God-
David: Right
Seth: ... and you're choosing to ignore it is h- I, I think that's helpful for me, I, personally-
Andrew: Yeah
Seth: ... and pastorally.
Andrew: It, it, can I... Just one thing that you j- a thought that you just triggered there, which, which I just think is also really fascinating about the golden calf, is the way in which people become like that which they worship. So I love that Moses, I think this is, I think I'm right in saying this is the first time in scripture that Israel is referred to as a stiff-necked people.
David: Yeah, I think you are right.
Andrew: Isn't it fascinating? They've just built this calf with a very, very stiff neck-
Seth: [laughs]
Andrew: ... and then they have become stiff-necked like him themselves, and it's just this theme, you know, those who worship idols will become like them, and so do all who trust in them. And it sort of pervades throughout scripture, and similarly of course, in Paul's theology, that's what happens to those of us who worship Christ, that we, by beholding him, are transformed into his image and become from one degree of glory to another.
Seth: Yes.
Andrew: And it's just lovely that the very act of worshiping makes you like the one that you worship. And I guess the Israeli worshiping the golden calf was probably the first really clear example. That phrase, stiff-necked people, is, it seems like a pure metaphor, but I don't think it is. I think it's a deliberate play on the fact that the calf has got a very stiff neck as well.
David: Wow. Yeah, that's really good. And, and then there's also this other way in which they, um, I don't know, not necessarily become, but end up imbibing what they were worshiping, right? They, uh, it gets, the, the, the-
Andrew: Yeah
David: ... it gets ground down, and they are forced to drink it. I know you guys pick this up in Echoes of Exodus and kind of trace that theme a bit. You wanna talk a little bit about why they have to drink gold dust? It's kinda strange. [laughs]
Andrew: Well, it, and in a sense, you know, that's again, you're drinking the, they're being forced to drink the deity. But, and in a very, again, you have to be careful with how you play these things as anti-types, but it is an anti-type of a sacrament, isn't it? That you, in the sense of this is now is what I have given to, for you. I have poured out my blood for you and for many, for the forgiveness of sins. Now drink this, all of you. It's a way of saying you can find healing in the drinking of this gift that I've-
David: Wow
Andrew: ... poured out. You, there's another sense in which that's the, you know, the gift of the Spirit, again, God given to you. And there's a, there's even a kind of a fascinating numerical, uh, twist there in that, you know, on the day that they worship the golden calf, you go around, the Levites run through the camp, and three, you know, you get 3,000 people die. And then on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit is poured out, the, the river of God, and 3,000 people are saved. And you get these interesting inversions even of the way in which this sort of one massive fall story gets turned into a redemption story later on in the text. Um-
Seth: Yeah
Andrew: ... so I think there are, there's always other things going on in some of these stories, and this is a fascinating example of how, again, you drink, you, you're drinking the God that you made, and now in the, in the Lord's Supper, we drink the God who has given himself to us.
Seth: That's amazing.
Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: Like, like this is so good. I also thought, uh, whenever I read that, the thing that triggered in my mind was Numbers 5 and the test for adultery. Like, and so like when in Numbers 5-
Andrew: Yes
Seth: ... there's a woman who, a man who's, like, accusing his wife of adultery.
David: Yeah.
Seth: She has to drink this bitter, this, the dust from the tabernacle.
Andrew: Right.
Seth: So the dust from the holy place, she has to drink it, and if she's guilty, she'll become sick, but if she's innocent, she'll be fine. So I don't know if there's an actual parallel there, but I was won- I mean-
Andrew: Oh, definitely, yeah
Seth: ... the idolatry is so c- oh, and I'm, I'm justified. Andrew said so. [laughs]
Andrew: [laughs]
David: So yeah, yeah, talk us through that then, Andrew.
Andrew: Oh, I, I definitely agree. I mean, I, I think the... Again, I see the, um, you know, the Pentateuch, the first five books as we have them now, clearly been brought together. I mean, I, I generally refer to the author as Moses, although I know that there are some bits that Moses couldn't have written-
David: Right
Andrew: ... because he was dead. Um, but, but the, the Moses or the person who was editing Moses' work in its final form is deliberately putting these stories in the same shape together so you're supposed to see those kind of connections between passages. And I think it, it doesn't come out as explicit in Exodus, but the idea that you are, uh, the, it's, the people who end up drinking are then end up becoming sick effectively and are demonstrated as those who deserve to be, you know, killed and judged.
David: They're applicable.
Andrew: And it may well be even that the, that the 3,000 people who the Levites kill are those who have been exposed as, you know, guilty as a result of the reaction they've had from drinking the statute. Um, so we, I, we don't know. But I, I think that clearly the, the connection with the, with the Numbers story is, I think, is a very strong one. We're supposed to see this is a way in which God separates out, which of, of course, is also sacramental. That is, it is in, uh, you know, says Paul in 1 Corinthians 11, that as you... If you drink the, the blood, if you take the body and the blood unworthily, then you... Actually, that's why some of you have become weak and sick, and some of you have died. That there's actually a judgment that you can drink on yourself if you take that which is the, the deity and end up misusing it. And so I think in a sense that, that, that Numbers, uh, story is sort of refracted in both the golden calf story and in the sacraments and, and probably other places as well.
David: I'd like us to go up onto the mountain, if we can. Can we... Oh, the prayer? When, when Moses prays to God? What, like the intercession?
Seth: Yes, yes. He's talking about that.
David: I wanna talk about that. Yeah, yeah. I wanna... Yeah. So, so God is, is angry. "My anger is burning hot against these stiff-necked people. I will surely visit their iniquities upon them," all that kind of stuff that's happening here. And then Moses intercedes, reminds God of the covenant, and God relents. So, um-
Andrew: Yeah.
Seth: One of the things I thought was interesting here too, and I want Andrew to talk about this, I hear pretty frequently, like, it is right that God is angry at us. It is right that God has wrath towards his people. But what Moses actually appeals to is the opposite. He says, "It is not right for you to be angry at your people, because then what will the people, what will E- Egypt think?" The enemies will think that you brought-
Andrew: Yeah
David: ... you brought your people out into the wilderness just to kill them. Yeah. He prays for... He appeals to his love in that, in like-
David: Interesting.
Seth: Anyway, so I just want to hear you. What do, what do you see here?
Andrew: Sorry, just give me the... I'm look- just scanning through. The verse in which you say that it's not, Moses says it's not right to be angry?
David: [laughs] Yeah, right. [laughs] Yeah. I, I don't know if those are the exact words there, Seth Stewart.
Seth: That's not the... Seth, Seth, this is Seth Stewart's translation.
Andrew: [laughs]
Seth: Uh, he says, "Moses implored the Lord," verse 14, "Oh Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you've brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say with evil intent that he bring them out to kill them in the mountains-"
Andrew: Oh, yeah
Seth: ... "in the desert?"
Andrew: Oh, you see there... Right. So I don't think, I don't think Moses is saying... Sorry, I, I thought you'd moved on into chapter 33 when he intercedes that, that God says he's gonna remove the... I th- I thought when you said going up the mountain, I thought we were going into chapter 33. So, um, yeah. I don't think he's saying, uh, "You are wrong to be angry with these people-"
David: Right. No ...
Andrew: "for what they've done." I think he's saying, "Your, your threat, um, leave me alone, that my anger can burn against them and I can destroy them, and I will make a great nation out of you." I think that's why Moses is objecting. I think because what he's doing is saying the covenant faithfulness, your covenant faithfulness is at stake here. Your name is at stake here.
David: Right.
Andrew: You said that you were gonna make this people into a great nation, and now you're saying that because of your judgment against them for this sin, you're gonna obliterate them, and therefore break the covenant promise that you've made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And that's something you surely, Lord, you will not do. And of course, God doesn't. So I don't think there that Moses is saying, "You're really not... You're wrong to be angry with your people for sinning" at all. I think he's saying, "You, I know..." Well, I think he's saying two things, as we're gonna find in chapters 33 and 34. "I know that your slowness to anger and your willingness to forgive sin and iniquity to the thousand generations rather than to revisit the sins on the third and fourth generation." I think there's that sort of con- your mercy is so much greater. Um, and then I think there's also the idea that your covenant faithfulness is at stake here, because if you don't make a great nation out of these people, then you will be breaking the word you've promised to the fathers. So it's an application of the anger rather than the fact that... I don't think Moses is saying, "You shouldn't be cross about these people sinning." If nothing else, Moses is pretty furious himself. I, I don't think the correction there is, "Don't get angry with these guys. They haven't done anything wrong." Moses is as angry as anybody and within a few verses, God is in a sense almost having to restrain Moses.
David: Yeah.
Andrew: And Moses breaks the tablets and has to go back and do that all over again. And God, God, [laughs] there's that lovely line. Is it in chapter 34? I think it's, you know, "Go and get the tablets which you broke."
David: Right. Yeah. [laughs] Which you broke.
Andrew: "And then you can rewrite them again." So, um, so I, I think that's, I think that's the challenge Moses is bringing. It's not the anger, it's the way in which the anger is resulting in-
David: Hmm
Andrew: ... the obliteration of the people unless God relents.
David: Right. Yeah, I think that's really good. And, um, and, and so, and so Moses a- appeals to God's, God's covenant love and the covenants that he made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Um, I mean, I almost see Moses as, not necessarily... He's not bar- I, I don't see him as bartering with God. It's almost like Moses is the mouthpiece of the covenant where he's like, he's, he's allow- Moses and God are these two characters. They're allowing us enter into the tension of like what we deserve, but what God gives and, and, and all that kind of stuff that's happening here. Uh, but it's on the basis of the covenant too that Jesus is our mediator who goes before the Father, right, and, and pleads our case-
Andrew: Yeah
David: ... because of the promises that he's made. He's faithful, he's faithful to himself, uh, and therefore he's kind to us. Uh, is there any other connections you'd like to make there, Andrew, with the, like the covenant?
Andrew: No, I did... No, that's, that's good. I mean, I, I think that idea of the, you know, the mediator who often up on the mountainside or up on the hill, uh, cries out to the Father that the, the s- the sinful people be forgiven on the basis of their priestly intercession. It's obviously something we find in Abraham, um, that, that people have been, you know, again, back to the Lot story I mentioned earlier, that pe- you know, "Far be it from you to do such a thing. Will not the Judge of all the earth do what's right?" You have that in this Moses story again. You have a, you know, in both cases, you've got a guy up on a mountainside literally looking down over the valley in which the people are s- the, the, the sinful people are about to be destroyed, and you find the, the faithful intercession. Then, of course, you have Jesus heading up on His own, His own hill, um, and making mediation between us and the Father and providing a way for our sins to be forgiven on the basis of His righteous mediation. So I, and there are probably others, actually, although, uh, they're, they're the ones that immediately spring to mind, and I think that's the, the s- the beaut- beauty of the, the intertextuality, the echoes in, in Scripture, that you find this key incident just appears in various forms and modes in all sorts of different places in the Bible.
David: Yeah, and, and, and, um, and we, we kinda see another, like, I guess another echo of that, or even a bookend, if you will, in this, in this chapter. Uh, I, I don't, I don't know if I'm jumping too far on it, but it is amazing that after the punishment is doled out by the Levites, uh, Moses then says, uh, "Let me go up to the Lord to see if I can make atonement." And the first thing out of his mouth when he goes up to make atonement is, "Blot me out of your book," right? It's like-
Andrew: Yeah
David: ... "Let, let me lay my life down to make atonement for the people."
Seth: Yeah.
David: And God says, "No, no, no. I'm not gonna let you do that." But instead, in Jesus, we see that He does it Himself.
Seth: Yeah, and Paul-
Andrew: Yes
Seth: ... and Paul says the same thing.
David: Does he?
Seth: Doesn't he, in the Book of Romans, right?
Andrew: Yeah.
Seth: He says like, "I wish I could, like, be cursed and cut off-"
David: Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah
Seth: ... for the sake of my fellow man."
Andrew: Yes.
Seth: Yeah, but, and I think-
Andrew: Yeah, it, it's something that you do when you, when you love the people you serve, is you're prepared to lay your life down for them. Great love has no man than this. But there's only one person of whom God says, "I'm gonna accept that."
David: Yes.
Andrew: "That gift," um, because of everybody else, He says, "No, no, no. This is, you, you, you cannot die as a substitute or representative for these people, but I can. I, I am, there is only one in whom it is appropriate for me to regard the human race as having been reckoned sinners in this one man, and therefore now to be reckoned righteous in him," and that's in Jesus. So it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's in, the a- the offer, I, "Let me die instead of them," I mean, a lot of parents know what that's like-
David: Mm
Andrew: ... I suspect. You know, if you see a child who's dying of, you know, leukemia or something tragic like that, the number of parents who would say, "I wish it was me"-
David: Yes
Andrew: ... that instinct is actually very human. It's not uniquely, that's not the marvelous thing about the Jesus story. Do you see what I mean?
David: Yeah.
Andrew: Representative death or exchange, it, in itself, is something that a lot of people would desire to do. What's marvelous about the Jesus story is that it, it works-
David: Wow
Andrew: ... that actually it's an appropriate substitution, because Jesus is, in being G- divine and human, is able to carry and have all of the, you know, the behavior of the world reckoned to Him, and then to have His righteousness reckoned to them. That's the thing that makes it marvelous.
David: Yes.
Seth: I was looking at verse 29.
David: I think I got saved again.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Oh, my goodness.
Seth: I th- I was looking at verse 29, uh, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of his son and of his brother-
David: Right
Seth: ... so that He might bestow a blessing upon you this day." The only way that we get the blessing of the Lord's favor is if there's one who, at the cost of his own son, serves the Lord, and serves us at the same time. I just, it's just-
David: Yeah, again, yeah, amazing. Well, um-
Andrew: Yeah
David: ... okay, well, we're, we're wrapping up here. Um, Andrew, uh, I mean, let's see. I'm trying to think if there's any other major themes here that we're missing out on, uh, i- in Exodus 32 or, or anything we haven't touched on.
Seth: Found one other, uh, fall thing in here.
David: Oh, yeah?
Seth: Verse, uh, 25, when the people had broken loose, or, like, run wild, or, like, it's a very similar word to the n- word naked in the Garden of Eden.
David: Oh, is it? Yeah, anyway, I thought that was interesting. Um, Moses, uh, Moses, I mean, Andrew, what do you see? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: Andrew, Moses, same things.
Seth: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah.
Andrew: Um, I, the, the thing is, there's probably plenty of other things in there as well. They're just, those are the main things I, I see. Um, but that doesn't mean that that's exhaustive.
David: Right.
Andrew: And I think this is part of the beauty of studying the Word, is that so often you find things and think, "Oh, man, I didn't, I, I've read this story many times, but I've never noticed that before."
David: Yeah, absolutely. Well, man, this has been, um, extremely, extremely enlightening, exciting. Um, man, like, my, I wanna, like, it makes me wanna read the Bible more, it makes me wanna worship more. Like, this is what I love about reading the Bible like this, like, finding the musicality of it, and how it culminates in Jesus. And just, um, it's been really fun having you on, Andrew, to let somebody else kinda step in and do that, uh, kind of over us. I've just felt like I've just been, like, just sitting here worshiping today, just getting to listen, um, and, and receive that from you. So thank you so much for your time today, Andrew. Um-
Seth: Yeah, thanks a lot, man.
Andrew: Oh, thank you.
David: Yeah, it's been great.
Andrew: It's been so good being with you. I just, I love the, the, the, uh, energy and the excitement about reading the Bible, so I, I, I love that, and thank you very much for having me.
David: Absolutely. Well, um, make sure you guys, uh, check out Echoes of Exodus, um, and, uh, make sure you, uh, check out everything that Andrew has to offer. Uh, check out his blog at thinktheology.co.uk.
Seth: And follow him on Twitter.
David: And follow him on Twitter-
Seth: AJW
David: ... at AJW Theology, and, uh, we'll put all that in the, in the description. Uh, thank you again, Andrew, uh, and we will, uh, see you guys next time. Bye. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating Gospel-centered media that speaks the Gospel out of every corner of Scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
