Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Today's episode is brought to you by Thomas Nelson Publishers, and my new book, Rewire Your Heart: Replace Desire for Sin with Desire for God, and that's coming out wherever books are sold October 30th. And it's available for pre-order from your favorite outlet today, so visit rewireyourheartbook.com for all the details. Let's jump in. [upbeat music]
David: Well, hey there, welcome to Spoken Gospel podcast. I'm David Bowden.
Seth: I'm Seth Stewart.
David: And we're really glad to have you with us today. We are in Exodus 19 today. We, uh, just finished up with, uh, Jethro's, uh, leadership counseling seminar, which we learned is not a leader- leadership counseling seminar.
Seth: It could be. [laughs]
Seth: I'd go to that. I'd go to it.
David: [laughs]
David: As long as John C. Maxwell's on the docket too, like-
Seth: Yes
David: ... you know, it's, they're ubiquitous. They have to always go together. It's like if there's a leadership seminar, Maxwell's gotta be there.
Seth: And Jethro's gotta be preached.
David: And Jethro's gotta be preached. You gotta, you gotta, it's a classic leadership text. No, but, uh, if you missed that one, I would, I would encourage you to go back.
Seth: I think that was my favorite one we've done.
David: It was, I think it's 'cause it surprised me how cool it was. [laughs] I was not expecting to see that much, uh, in it. I think we both thought it was gonna be like a 10-minute, like, mini episode, and it turned into a full thing. So.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That was fun.
Seth: But today, we get to go into the covenant God makes with Israel.
David: Yes.
Seth: Second covenant.
David: One of the most central-
Seth: Third.
David: Yeah, depends on how you're counting the covenants.
Seth: [laughs]
David: This is one of the most central moments in the whole Bible. Um, it's also, like, one of the big climax moments. It's not the climax. We'll see that the climax of Exodus comes when God actually comes into the tabernacle. Like, that's the whole point-
Seth: Right
David: ... is God dwelling with His people.
Seth: And the real, yeah, well, we'll get there.
David: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]
Seth: I got excited. We can, err, back up.
David: Yeah. A- and so, uh, but today, God does come onto Mount Sinai, and, uh, makes this covenant with His people. So, uh, it, and not, not a ton of stuff happens, so it won't take-
Seth: Why don't we define covenant-
David: Oh, gosh
Seth: ... before we start?
David: Yeah, you wanna do that? [laughs]
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: Okay.
Seth: It's like, like this is one of those Christian words that everybody uses-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... that nobody defines.
David: Sure.
Seth: Would probably be helpful. So this is a guy named Ray Dillard that I found his quote super helpful, and he said, "A covenant is essentially about relationships."
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: "And a relationship or the best relationships always have law and love in it." So you can think about a marriage.
David: Right.
Seth: Like a marriage has law and love in it. You have this, these binding, solemn promises where both parties are promising to do something, and set, and set expectations for the other. But it's also more than law, and it's also more than binding promises. It's deeply personal and relational. So it's not just a business partnership, which would be like law without love.
David: Sure.
Seth: And it's not just a friendship, which is generally like love without law.
David: Okay.
Seth: The, but it's actually this binding, the binding law-like nature of it makes the intimacy of the relationship more intense.
David: Mm.
Seth: And then the love relationships makes the business part of the s- part of the covenant far more intense as well. So it's this deeply personal, deeply binding pact-
David: Right
Seth: ... that God enters into, into, w- into-
David: Right
Seth: ... with humanity, with people.
David: So, like, I mean, so marriage is probably the clearest picture we have of that, right?
Seth: The clearest picture.
David: Like, so it, it's love. We, we, we fell in love. We got married.
Seth: But it's-
David: But at, at the, at the end of the mushy ceremony, we have to go out back with the minister and sign a contract. [laughs]
Seth: Right.
David: A marriage, a marriage, uh, certificate.
Seth: And we kind of, society accept, like, just knows that those things-
David: Bind belong together
Seth: ... like law and love belong together.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And so what we, what we have here in the text is law and love-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... coming together in our relationship with God.
David: Right. And then, um, and, and so I wanna, I wanna make a observation about that and say, and affirm it, and then I also wanna push back on it a little bit. So my affirmation is, I think this is, it's good to see it in this marriage way, the covenant in, in, as a marriage. God constantly throughout the rest of scripture refers to Israel as His bride, and He is this wounded lover in Jeremiah whose, his bride left him in the wilderness and all this kind of stuff. So I think that's a responsible leap to take. I think the other thing we wanna make a note about, um, here when we talk about covenants is that, um, a covenant was also a really, um, common practice in the ancient Near East when this was happening. Um, and, like, what, what some of these covenants would look like is that you'd have a conquering army come in and take over a city, and decimate, and rule, and-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... like, he would take over, and then that lord would make a covenant with the new city that he's taken over. And so, um, a- and, and there w-
Seth: The more powerful person would say, "Here are the terms-"
David: That's right
Seth: "... of living in peace-"
David: Yes
Seth: "... with me."
David: That's exactly right. And so as long as you do these things, we're gonna be okay. I'll let you live in the land. I will build roads for you. You know, I'll be your king. You will be my people, that kind of thing. Uh, and so that's kind of what God has done here as well. He has not decimated Israel. He's saved Israel by decimating Egypt, and He's rescued them and brought them out. That's why it's already a play on these ancient Near Eastern-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... covenant contracts.
Seth: And they actually followed a very specific pattern, where the more powerful lord, the invading lord-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... whoever, he would say, "Here's what I've done for you already."
David: Right.
Seth: He would then make stipulations, here's what your responsibility is, and then he would make promises.
David: And, and curses.
Seth: And curses.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And we actually see that-
David: That's right
Seth: ... here in, uh, Exodus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So in verse four, God recounts what He did for Israel. In verse five, He says, "And here's what you will do in response. You will," verse five, "Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine." And He call, He says, "You'll be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." And He says
Seth: Moses, go tell this to the people, and then he makes, and so those are the stipulations-
David: Yep
Seth: ... and then immediately followed by the promises.
David: Right. And actually, here we don't have curses.
Seth: No.
David: Not yet.
Seth: Not yet. No, they, they come later. Uh, but they don't even come in Exodus. Uh, the curses don't, uh-
David: Not 'til Deuteronomy.
Seth: Not 'til Deuteronomy. You do have some of the, uh, um, if, if you do, if you do this, let them be stoned or stuff like that. Um, but the word curse isn't quite as, uh, common until we get to Deuteronomy. Um, I, I wanna, before we push forward in the narrative, I wanna stop and look at, um, some of these things that you just read. I think, um, starting off with God reminding Israel what He's done for them before He commands them things to do [laughs] right? Right.
David: He says, "I am the Lord your God who brought you up out of the land of Egypt," right? Therefore, do these things. God's covenant that He makes is preconditioned on the saving act that He did towards Israel, right? And I think this is so common to how God operates through scripture, right? He saves before He sends, you know. He calls before He commands. Um, it's just always how He works, and we see this really clearly in Jesus because, like, Jesus doesn't come to us and say, "Do this, and then I'll save you," right? He says, "I have saved you. I'm the Lord your God who brought you up out of the land of Egypt."
Seth: Love me.
David: Right, love me.
Seth: Yeah, trust me.
David: Except in the gospel, it's, "I'm the Lord your God who died on a cross to save you."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "Now love me and obey my commands." Um, and so God always comes and does the work first, right? He always comes and saves first, and based on that huge saving event, He then says, "Love me, follow me, obey me."
Seth: Right. And one of the most common ways in which we misunderstand Christianity is that in, we must first behave or do a certain moral action-
David: Right
Seth: ... you know, get our lives together before God will love us-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... and before God will accept us, but that's not the case.
David: No.
Seth: God actually saves us first.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And then because He saved us, and out of, out of love and gratitude, we respond in obedience.
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's, that's, I was like, I was trying to think of, like, a way to, like, describe this. [laughs]
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, like, put it in, like, other words, and so, like, in order, I said it, so I, so I wrote it down this way. You're just gonna hear it.
David: [laughs]
Seth: So I think many of us hear and think that in order to eat your cake and to be sa- in order to eat your cake, you need to buy all the ingredients-
David: Right
Seth: ... bake the cake, frost it yourself, and then present it to the Lord, and if He thinks it's good, He'll allow you to eat it. But what God is actually saying in these covenants, and by placing all His faithfulness first, He's saying, in order to enjoy the cake, all you need to do is love sugar.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Like, [laughs] do, do you want salvation?
David: Mm.
Seth: Love the one who brings salvation.
David: Right.
Seth: Um.
David: Well, I mean, a- and that's kind of assuming on, um, at least one thing, that Go- God is saying, like, you know, "I've saved you. Now, if you want to be in this covenant, enjoy this relationship," or in your metaphor, if you want to eat this cake, what's the condition? And a lot of us then, like you said, would go into, well, I gotta buy the flour, and I gotta buy the sugar, and I gotta bake it. I gotta frost it. I gotta do all the work. I have to obey all these laws that are about to come out of it. But what you're saying is there's actually an affection under all this. You're saying that no, really, i- no one has to be like, uh, you know, here's this cake. You know, work for it. It's like, no, you just eat it 'cause you love sugar, and so what you're saying is that when God comes and saves us and says, "Love me, be my people, obey my commands," that you're saying obedience and enjoying God are the same thing?
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay, because, um, that's not a common leap a lot of us take. Whenever we read, I'm sure whenever a lot of people are gonna go through and read, you know, Exodus 21 and on, when they start reading all these really intense laws, they're not thinking, "Oh, these are all the ways that I effectively love God," you know-
Seth: No
David: ... "and enjoy Him."
Seth: But I think the easiest way, like, think about the ministry of Jesus. What we have here is the establishment of the law.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And what did Jesus say was the summation of the entire law?
David: Oh, that's good.
Seth: Like, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and love your neighbor as yourself.
David: Yeah.
Seth: This is what the whole law is.
David: Wow.
Seth: So even here, when He's saying, "Obey me," really, it's, "Love me."
David: It has to be love.
Seth: It has to be love.
David: It has to be. He hasn't said it yet.
Seth: Jesus interpreted-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... what the law is for us, and He said it is a law of love.
David: Yeah. That's really cool. That's really cool. [gentle music]
Seth: So here's a question then.
David: Okay.
Seth: If God begins the covenant by already saving His people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and the precondition to experience the blessings of God is love for God and obedience, I also know a little bit further down the story, like, they, the, before the co- this covenant's even ratified and made concrete, they disobey.
David: Right. They make the golden calf.
Seth: And they make the golden calf.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And then in Exodus 34, God makes the covenant again, even though they broke the terms-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... of the half-made covenant.
David: That's right.
Seth: So, so the question, and then, and then Moses says, like, "The Lord is merciful and gracious and abounding in steadfast love." So is the, is the covenant actually conditional-
David: Mm
Seth: ... on the obedience of the people, or is it not?
David: Yes.
Seth: [laughs]
David: It is. So, um, God is not tongue-in-cheek here. So I think, I think it's yes to both. I think it's conditional and unconditional. So-
Seth: At the same time
David: ... at the same time, because if it wasn't, I think God would be being duplicitous in a sense. Uh, He'd be kind of like, like I said, tongue in cheek, kind of like, kinda joking, like [laughs] I, like, just obey me, and, you know, the covenant will go well, wink, wink. You know, I know-
Seth: Right
David: ... it's not, but I think that God is deathly, and I mean that se- you know, deathly serious about, um, the, the conditions of this covenant. Uh, we see that death dealt, dealt out, uh, to 3,000 people after the golden calf. Um, we see it here, that if you come up on the mountain and you're not consecrated or called, you will die. And so it is conditional, that this is a covenant that God takes seriously, and if you don't obey it perfectly, then you cannot dwell with God. You cannot. Yet, like you said, you pointed out, but God seems to continually hold up His end of the covenant unconditionally-And by unconditional, I mean not conditioned upon the people's obedience.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right? And, and so-
Seth: I'm also having flashbacks to like the covenant with Abraham-
David: Yes
Seth: ... where he walks by himself-
David: That's right
Seth: ... through those animals as-
David: Yeah.
Seth: That's like, "I'm the one who's responsible for both party, both sides of the covenant."
David: That's right. That's right. And, and so I think that we have to see, what we have to see here is a forerunner to Christ, right? That, that God is saying in, in exam- in exampling here that even though mankind is 100% responsible for their actions, they must obey God, they will fail. Even though all that is true, the covenant will be broken, they cannot hold up their end of the bargain. From the beginning, God has demonstrated and shown that He will unconditionally uphold both ends of the bargain, and the only way He can do that is in Christ.
Seth: So if you're an Old Testament-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jew living under the Old Covenant-
David: Yep
Seth: ... you are actually feeling like all this dramatic tension-
David: Yes
Seth: ... all the time, aren't you?
David: Right.
Seth: Because you're like, "God said he'd be faithful to His promises if I obey, but we've consistently not obeyed, but He's still faithful."
David: Yes.
Seth: Why? On what basic, what ground is He still faithful if we've been disobedient? So like, as a Jewish person, you're probably living with this con- If you're like listening-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to your history, you're probably living with this consistent sense of anxiety that like, is God finally gonna give up because we've failed, or is He gonna keep being this way?
David: Yeah. I think you, I think you see multiple ways that people work through that tension throughout the Bible, and so you see it in like Jeremiah 7. People become lackadaisical about it, and they just-
Seth: What's that word mean? [laughs]
David: They, they just, they, they just, they just presume upon God's unconditional love of them.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So they, uh, they go out and they murder people, and they use false scales, uh, in their marketplace, and they do all this terrible thing, all these terrible things. Um, and then they come to the temple of God, and they, and they say, "Oh, well, this is the temple of the Lord. Uh, He, He has to love us. He has to stay here because He promised He would, and God always keeps His promises. Don't you remember Exodus?" And so you see this like presumptive people-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... kind of coming out of this. But then you also have like moments like, uh, in the Psalms, whenever you have like David completely overwhelmed with the, the hesed, the steadfast love of God, or His covenant love. Like when you see steadfast love in your Bible, it's usually hesed, which, which is covenant love, which is what we're talking about right here. And David constantly is overwhelmed with the fact that even though it seems like everything is bad, and God has turned His back, and God has stopped listening, and God is punishing him, even though all this is true, at the end of all the Psalms, you know, what you most commonly see is, "But the steadfast love of the Lord endures forever."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, "You will remain faithful." So I think you see people experiencing it two different ways.
Seth: And I think, I was thinking about I- Isaiah 1, you have the other side of it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's like it's only conditional, conditioned upon our practices and beliefs, and Isaiah says, "No, I hate you," and God, like Isaiah speaking for God says, "I hate your festivals."
David: Right.
Seth: "I hate your harvests. I hate, like, your celebration. I hate your Sabbaths."
David: Right.
Seth: He says, "Because-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... you're not doing it from the heart."
David: Right. He desired mercy, not sacrifice.
Seth: And I think we should probably stop right there 'cause I'm immediately thinking like these are the same two ditches we fall in today.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You have the more liberal side of Christianity that will say like, "It doesn't matter how you behave. God's love towards you is unconditional."
David: Right.
Seth: "All of us will be in heaven together one day regardless of it. We're all imperfect together."
David: Yeah. We're all imperfect. It's like we can't help it, and God understands that. He knows that we are dust to coal.
Seth: And then you have the more, the f- the f- the modern day fundamentalists who say, "You have to do this. You, being a Christian looks like not seeing R-rated movies."
David: That's right.
Seth: "And not doing this, and not doing this, and not doing this." And they're known for their hatred and how insular they are.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: But like there's actually a third option that we are only hinted at in the Old Testament-
David: Right
Seth: ... that's only given to us, to in Jesus. If we're, if the condit- the covenant's either unconditional, we'll become liberals.
David: Yeah.
Seth: If it's only conditional, we become Pharisees.
David: Right.
Seth: But the gospel-
David: If it's actually conditional and actually unconditional.
Seth: We're waiting for somebody to fulfill it for us-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to do both.
David: Right.
Seth: We're waiting for Jesus to do what we can't do-
David: Mm
Seth: ... and to give to us what we were supposed to do.
David: Yeah.
Seth: We're waiting for the cross of Jesus Christ to free us from both the excess of liberalism-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and fundamentalism.
David: Right.
Seth: We're waiting for a new way to live.
David: Yeah. And this is totally teased, um, in the next, at the end of the next chapter. Um, after the, the Ten Commandments are given, um, there is an altar put up at the foot of Mount Sinai, and in order for people to come on and off the mountain to, to approach God, even Moses, like they have to offer this sacrifice. Like, there's already this, um, substitution language being used that like, "You can't uphold this covenant perfectly. You aren't doing everything right. You aren't meeting the conditions, so we have to solve this another way." And, uh, yeah, I think we- they're waiting on this Messiah to come, which would be-
Seth: In order for us to receive unconditional love, there needs to be a conditional sacrifice.
David: Mm.
Seth: Somebody needs to pay-
David: Yes
Seth: ... the penalty for doing the wrong thing, and also has to do the right thing.
David: That's right.
Seth: A conditional sacrifice.
David: That's why it's actually conditional.
Seth: But-
David: Right
Seth: ... the crazy news of Jesus Christ is that we get the unconditional hesed love of God-
David: Mm
Seth: ... because Jesus Christ fulfills all the conditions for us. [upbeat music]
David: Okay, so we've talked about the, um, unconditional conditional covenant, and how, um, it's actually a conditional covenant, but those conditions can't be met by us because we're constantly sinful, and so we are waiting for the one to keep those conditions, and that one is Christ. And so throughout-
Seth: We get unconditional love
David: ... we get unconditional love in return-
Seth: Right
David: ... that we don't deserve. And so the whole, throughout the whole Old Testament, there's this tension that we talked about of people going like, "Are these conditions going to be met? Through whom are they going to be met? Is God going to be able to, uh, be faithful and love us and save us since we have broken His covenant?" And then we get to Jesus, and the answer is yes. So now I wanna look at, okay, so why is God making this covenant with His people at all?Like, why does this covenant exist? You know, what is, what's God after here? Um, what's his reasoning?
Seth: Yeah.
David: And he says that, "I'm gonna make this covenant with you for some specific reasons." He says that, "So that out of the whole earth," he says, "The whole earth is mine, and out of this whole earth, out of all the cosmos that I possess, you, Israel, are going to be my treasured possession. I'm going to make you a kingdom of priests. I'm gonna make you a holy nation. I will be your God, you will be my people, and I will dwell with you." So you have, this is why God is doing what he's doing. Um, and so there, there feels like there's a lot to unpack there. [laughs] Um, so, uh, first, we should just go ahead and lean on Peter here-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... and let Peter help us because, um, there's no reason to just try to shoot in the dark here. Uh, 1 Peter 2:9 quotes this, uh, this exactly. Uh, he talks about how, uh, in Christ, we are a holy nation, a treasured possession, uh, a, a royal priesthood, all these things that God said Israel would be. Now he says that we are this in Christ. So, um, which one do you wanna tackle first, Seth? Let's talk about-
Seth: Let's-
David: Let's talk about each of these.
Seth: Let's talk about, we talked about priests a lot last week, so let's start with the holy nation.
David: That's true. Okay, holy nation. So, uh, holy nation, I would say, is probably a throwback to God's prominence, pro- prominence? Promise to Abraham when he says that, um, "I will make you into a great nation," right?
Seth: Right.
David: "And then through you, all nations will be blessed." And so we'll, we'll, we'll learn very soon in Leviticus that things that are holy, when they go out and touch other things, they make other things holy, and so, like, that's how holiness works.
Seth: No, the opposite.
David: No. It, uh, it depends on the level of holiness. So the sin atonement of, like, the lamb, the sin atoning lamb, if its blood gets spurted out and lands on an object, that object is made holy, so much so that if, like, it gets on your robes, you have to, your, your robes are made holy, and you have to wash off the holy blood, and if you wash it off in an earthen vessel, that earthen vessel is holy, so you have to smash the vessel or else the holiness will just keep spreading. And so it's pretty crazy.
Seth: That is crazy.
David: Yeah, now, uh, now something that is defiled can make a neutral object defiled, but holiness cannot be defiled.
Seth: Oh, weird.
David: Yeah, anyway, the, we'll get into that when we talk about Leviticus. But what the picture is here of a holy nation is it's of this great nation that God promised that he would make Abraham, and as this nation goes around the world and spreads, being fruitful and multiplying, they would, everything they would touch would become like God, and his glory would cover the face of the earth as waters cover the sea. That's the picture of the holy nation.
Seth: Right, and what happens is that in Christ, that's expanded not just to be one particular people group-
David: People group, yeah
Seth: ... but all people groups.
David: Yes.
Seth: So the Great Commission picks up on this-
David: That's right
Seth: ... when it says, "Go therefore and make disciples. All authority's on, in Heaven and Earth is given to me"-
David: Right
Seth: ... Jesus. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations."
David: All nations.
Seth: So there it is again.
David: Yep.
Seth: And so the way that God's covenant blessing continues isn't through procreation-
David: Right
Seth: ... but through the gospel.
David: Right, sharing the gospel is the new promised seed.
Seth: Making disciples, yeah.
David: Right, yes, absolutely. Um, so, uh, what about this treasured possession thing out of the whole earth? This is very interesting, uh, that God chose Israel out of everyone, out of everything. God chose humans, and out of the humans, he chose Israel, even though they were doubting all the way and fighting all the way. I think this goes back to, um, what we talked about, how God makes his promises and his unconditional covenant and he, and he, uh, he does this before Israel has done anything to earn it. And so, um, there's this, there's this idea, it's a really controversial term for a lot of people, but it's this idea of monergism, uh, this idea that in the salvation act, God is the only actor.
Seth: God does everything.
David: God does everything. And so, um, here we, we see that since Israel is God's chosen possession, God did not save Israel from Egypt and do all these things, like, hoping against hope that it would be enough to create the people that he wanted to create. Like-
Seth: Yeah, and isn't it in Numbers where he says, like, "I didn't choose you because you were awesome."
David: That's right.
Seth: "I chose you because you were-"
David: Because you were the worst. [laughs]
Seth: The worst. [laughs] "I chose you 'cause you were the smallest."
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: "And if you were gonna, if you succeeded, everyone would know, like, that it was me."
David: "It was i-
Seth: that was impossible for you to do."
David: Yeah, that's right.
Seth: "It could only have been because I acted-"
David: That's right
Seth: ... alone through you."
David: Yes. And so it's really important that we know about this treasured possession thing because, because God chose Israel, we know that he will be faithful to his unconditional covenant. Because if he was just throwing his covenant to the world, waiting for someone to obey it, he'd be waiting with bated breath for all eternity. But if God said, "I will choose you, and I will pursue you throughout all the ages, I will make you my treasured possession and my holy nation-"
Seth: Okay
David: ... "regardless of your failings."
Seth: So you're saying it's better that God chose one nation rather than all nations.
David: Um, it's, well, that's difficult. It's better because God did it.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I, I can't tell you why it would be better or why God chose who he-
Seth: Well, you, it seemed like you were pushing, like, like this is, like, this is, there's a benefit and there's a joy and there's a security in God choosing one particular people rather than making his covenant available to all people, and so I just-
David: Oh, I see
Seth: ... dude, is it, you were saying this, I was like, man, like most of the people I interact with said, no, what was most loving would be for all people to experience God's covenant-
David: Right
Seth: ... faithfulness-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... w- without discrimination-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... without, like, specialization, without specific, like making it specific.
David: Right.
Seth: So how, like let's just say, like, no, no, no, God would be more loving if everyone could-- So, like, you just said the opposite of this.
David: I did.
Seth: So, so if somebody comes up to you, non-Christian friend-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... Christian friend, whoever, and they say, "How is, no, God would be most loving if he allowed his covenant to be experienced by the entire ancient world-"
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and Israel would have been said, 'Yes, we'll be the ones that do it.'"
David: Oh, I see. Right.
Seth: Right.
David: Yeah, so the, the problem with that is we see time and time again in the Exodus story that we've been walking through that Israel says no. They don't wanna go with this God. They wanna go back to Egypt. They refuse this covenant. They break this covenant. They don't wanna be near this mighty God on the mountain. At every turn of the page, Israel is running away. And so this is just the truth, that when holiness and goodness comes into sinful world, we scatter like roaches when a light turns on. Like, and so if God made a blanket covenant with the whole world, and, uh, one, how would he communicate that? Like, how would he enter into space and time and history and actually do that? We don't know, 'cause that's not how he chose to operate. But two, even if he did, and, and, and made that available to everybody, I think we see in Israel as a microcosm of all of humanity, we see that even if he would've extended to us, everyone would've said no. Everyone would've broken it. And this is what we call, like, the Fall. This is original sin. This is no one would accept God unless God brought him to them. Like, he brings, he brings himself to us and o- opens our hearts to actually accept him.
Seth: Right.
David: So, yeah.
Seth: And besides that, if God is not doing the choosing of a particular people-
David: Mm
Seth: ... it- then he's just waiting for our response.
David: Right.
Seth: It does feel more transactional.
David: It does.
Seth: It feels more conditional. It feels more like a business partnership.
David: Right.
Seth: I'm waiting for you to move-
David: That's right. At some point-
Seth: ... before I, before I try to love you.
David: Yeah, at some point we've done something to earn this relationship. Like, you know, well, the covenant was for everybody, and I was just smarter or more humble-
Seth: Right
David: ... or more quick to act, or, you know, I saw the, the blue light special sale and I ran up, you know, I got to Walmart first-
Seth: Right
David: ... and beat everybody. [laughs]
Seth: So to, to my, like, to my non-Christian friend who's saying-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "No, no, I want, I, God needs to be loving to everyone simultaneously all the time"-
David: Right
Seth: ... your response would be, "Okay, w- do you really want someone to love you only because you've done enough things for them?"
David: Right.
Seth: Wouldn't it be more loving for somebody to look at you, to see your flaws, to see your imperfections, say, "I will love you. I'll pay your debts. I'll make sure you make it through college, not because you've done anything but simply because I love you"-
David: Right
Seth: ... "and you're mine"-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... "and I want you to respond in kind"? But that's, that's what you're saying, like-
David: Yes. Yeah, it is
Seth: ... like, that's what's happening here with Israel.
David: And, and I would also say to this hypothetical non-Christian friend that God is also doing what you want him to do. You're saying you want him to offer his covenant to all people. That's why he chose Israel and made them a holy nation, so that he could extend the covenant to all people, and that's what we get in Jesus, that in Jesus we don't, we also don't have God dying on the cross hoping against hope that it's a good enough story to convince people to love him. We have God dying on the cross for his chosen people. Again, like I said in 1 Peter 2:9, we are now his treasured possession, his chosen people, and we have Jesus dying on the cross to save us, and he turns us into this holy nation that goes out into the whole world begging them, as 2 Corinthians says, "Be reconciled to God." And so what your non-Christian friend wants is actually true, because in Christ and through the church, all people have access to this saving covenant of Jesus. I mean, I think.
Seth: Yeah. [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Seth: I think I just got saved again. [laughs]
David: Okay, good. That's, that's good. That's my job here. I've been trying to convert you for a long time, so. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] So we just asked a question. Our culture pretty much believes that God is love-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and love is best shown when all people are given God's love indiscriminately-
David: Right
Seth: ... if they meet the conditions.
David: Right, if they just say, "Yes, I'll sign up for that."
Seth: I'll sign up for that.
David: Right.
Seth: But the problem with that is it's actually, what we're saying is like, yes, God is love-
David: Right
Seth: ... but it's actually more loving for God to love one people group without conditions, and conditions at the same time-
David: Yep
Seth: ... but without conditions, uh, so that everyone in the entire world can experience God's grace, and it's only through particular love despite the people, despite what you're like, despite your sins-
David: Right, yes
Seth: ... despite your flaws, that actually is the most loving thing.
David: Yes.
Seth: We'd rather have somebody love us with all of our flaws-
David: Right
Seth: ... than someone wait for us to be worthy of love.
David: Right. I mean, what, what do we think is more loving, someone who, who kind of says, like, "You know what? I got a lot of love to give, so I don't, I just don't really, I'm not really into the institution of marriage. Just got a lot of love to give." And so what you actually get from that is a guy who goes around sleeping around with a bunch of different women. Compare him-
Seth: Or, yeah
David: ... to a committed, loving, caring father and husband who is faithful to his wife for 60 years and dies. Who would you say is showing more love, the guy who spreads his, quote-unquote, "love" around to a bunch of people indiscriminately, or someone who commits deeply to a particular person?
Seth: It's the one where there's law and love.
David: Law and love. The covenant.
Seth: Law and love.
David: Yeah. That's why, it, it goes back to marriage, and marriage in particular.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's not universal. You don't marry everybody. You marry someone.
Seth: And that's special for that relationship.
David: Yes.
Seth: And it's a picture of what true love is like-
David: Yes
Seth: ... for everyone around.
David: That's right.
Seth: So we have a category for that. That's true love.
David: Yeah, and what's amazing is when God makes this marriage covenant with Israel, in Christ, whenever, it becomes for all people. Like, and that was always God's plan, you know, in Abraham. You know, all nations will be blessed through this specific covenant with you and your household, Abraham. That's always been God's plan, but God did it through a specific people so we could see what does it look like when God marries himself to a people group. Like, that is a beautiful picture, because ultimately that's a picture of the church, right? Like, we are the new Israel, and so-
Seth: Yeah
David: ... now we are the bride of Christ, and we got that picture in Israel.
Seth: That's cool.
David: And it's a communal body. Okay, let's move on. So next we get the-... crazy theophany, which that's the, that's the $10 word for God showing up. Uh-
Seth: Only $10?
David: It's only 10 bucks. It's on sale this week.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Theophany. Usually, usually it's $14.99.
Seth: [laughs]
David: But theoph- well, the Spoke about it. W- sp- blah, blah, blah. What was that?
Seth: The Spoke the Gospel podcast, that's only-
David: The Spoke the Gospel podcast is free.
Seth: [laughs] Free.
David: Um, okay.
Seth: But do leave us a review because-
David: But do leave us a review
Seth: ... because that would be nice.
David: Quick plug.
Seth: Quick plug.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Do that because-
David: Well, it helps us
Seth: Yeah.
David: Uh, okay, so now, uh, we get to God showing up on the mountain. It, it talks about God descending on the mountain in this thick, dark cloud. Uh, there's lightning and there's thunder and it's-
Seth: Fire
David: ... there's fire. It's loud, it's bright, it's ominous, it's terrifying, it's powerful, it's awe-inspiring. Yahweh, the I Am, who Moses met in the burning bush, is now on Mount Sinai, as he promised he would be, and his voice is booming, thundering out from the mountain. And here's why he does this. Here's why he puts on such a light show. He t- he tells Moses, "I'm going to show up and I'm going to speak to my people so that they might believe me forever." Like, that's why God shows up in this way. Like, it's amazing. He's like, "I don't, I don't want there to be any doubt that Yahweh is the only God, 'cause no one else could do this." And so he shows up, he speaks to his people, and I mean, it's a testament that, th- to the fact that this account, like, is still in our hands today. Like, [laughs] it survived, and it has a people group with a story that said, "Yeah, my great-great-grandfather was at Mount Sinai and did see these things." And then, like, it's carried on throughout the Old Testament, and we keep going back to this moment when God showed up on the mountain, and it's carried through until it's met in its ultimate climax in Jesus. And what we see is in Jesus, on the Mount of Transfiguration, we get this picture that Jesus-
Seth: Oh, I thought they were gonna go to the cross.
David: No, not yet. Not yet.
Seth: Oh, oh, a different mountain.
David: It's a different mountain. Not yet. Because first we have to know that Jesus is this Yahweh. We have to know that, and that's what the Mount of Transfiguration does for us. And, and Moses shows up, he's there.
Seth: Wow.
David: And Elijah shows up, and he's there.
Seth: I never thought-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... I never really thought about that.
David: And so, y- God, uh, Jesus is, is transfigured into this picture of God on Mount Sinai with all his glory and all his splendor, and, and, uh, Peter wants to set up a tent, just like the Israelites did at the foot of Mount Sinai. He's like, "We, we're back at Mount Sinai. Here we are. Isn't it good for us to stay here like, like our ancestors did at Mount Sinai?" And Jesus is like, "No, no, I've gotta go to the other mountain." Like, the Yahweh that came down in all his power on Mount Sinai now has to go to Mount Calvary to fulfill the conditions of the covenant that God made at Mount Sinai.
Seth: That's crazy.
David: And then-
Seth: Very cool ... and then I just, I mean, then now I'm having flash forwards.
David: Ooh, flash forwards. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] J.J. Abrams. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Any other Lost fans?
David: Oh my goodness.
Seth: I love Lost.
David: Oh, gosh.
Seth: Like, every week for nine years. How could I forget about it? But, like-
David: Flash forward
Seth: ... flash forward to Acts 2, where fire descends.
David: Oh, dang. Yeah. [laughs]
Seth: And, like, the people, and the people proclaim the gospel. For what purpose? To spread the Lord's covenant throughout the world.
David: To people groups. To people groups. Different people groups.
Seth: And what is the proof that the, that God is present? That fi- like, that fire has fallen.
David: Yep.
Seth: Miracles are being done.
David: Yep.
Seth: The Lord is speaking from the flames yet again.
David: Wow.
Seth: And his tent is us.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, we are the tent where he dwells.
David: Right. And then flash forward again.
Seth: More flash forwards. [laughs]
David: And you get to the, the end, when, when God actually comes and makes the whole Earth a Mount Sinai that he dwells upon, and he comes and he dwells with us, and we get to live in that bright, glorious, awe-inspiring presence, hearing the voice of God firsthand for all eternity.
Seth: Man.
David: On Mount Zion.
Seth: That's awesome. [laughs]
David: It's amazing.
Seth: That's amazing.
David: Yeah. So that's really cool. Um, man, that just makes me sad. I wish we could end there, but we have to do one more thing.
Seth: We, we can't?
David: We can't.
Seth: We can't.
David: No, there's, no, there's one more thing we have to talk about.
Seth: Okay.
David: It's that there, God is very particular about no one coming on this mountain unless God breaks out against them and they die. So sharp turn away from happy things. [laughs]
Seth: Happy things. God speaks to us forever-
David: Yay
Seth: ... until you die. [laughs]
David: [laughs] This is why I didn't wanna talk about this.
Seth: I know.
David: But the Bible talks about it, so we have to talk about it. So, um, yeah, God says, uh, "Moses, I want you to put up this barrier around Mount Sinai before I descend, uh, lest anyone come up to the mountain, get too close, touch it, and I, and they die." And there's two ways that, in this text, that they said that, that they could die. One is God says, "I would break out against them," so God would actually actively do the killing. Or in order to pre- prevent that, he says that if anyone gets close to the mountain, stone them. Like, "Don't let them."
Seth: Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah.
David: Like, "You guys stop them. You guys do the, do the job." Uh, and that's kind of a foreshadowing of what happens later whenever, uh, Moses and the Levites carry out the justice of God, um, after the golden calf. We'll see that later. That-
Seth: He also says, "Stoned or shot."
David: Or shot, yeah.
Seth: [laughs] It's like-
David: Which is like, they just pull out their semi-automatics and-
Seth: [laughs]
David: ... you know, I think it's bows and arrows, but, you know.
Seth: I was also thinking slingshots.
David: Slingshots. Oh, and that's a-
Seth: Have you seen those YouTube videos?
David: What YouTube videos?
Seth: [laughs] People, like, who recreated, like, the sling, ancient slingshots-
David: No.
Seth: And they like-
David: Are they intense?
Seth: Oh, so intense. Like, they, these things go up to 80, 90 miles an hour.
David: What?
Seth: And they'll explode watermelons.
David: No.
Seth: YouTube.
David: YouTube.
Seth: [laughs]
David: I wanna see that.
Seth: Can we put a link in the description? [laughs]
David: We should.
Seth: [laughs] Just like, Mount Sinai and exploding watermelon-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... episode 14. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That's so awesome. Okay, uh, so Seth-Well, it's like, let me, uh, you asked me a hard question earlier that I had to scramble for an answer, so it's my turn. Why-
Seth: These really are unscripted, by the way. [laughs]
David: Yeah, I know. People don't know that. Yeah, we each do, so we each study, and we each come with kind of our own little notes, but then, uh, as it unfolds, it's completely unscripted. So here's my question to you. You asked me about conditional, unconditional election, or not election, sorry, [laughs] that's a Freudian slip. Conditional versus unconditional covenant. Um, let me ask you this. Why would someone die if they touched the mountain?
Seth: Because.
David: Because why? [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] Because there's... The best way I've heard it described is that God is holy.
David: Yep.
Seth: And we are not.
David: Yep.
Seth: And God's holiness isn't a bad thing.
David: No.
Seth: It's not why we're destroyed.
David: Yes.
Seth: But it's because it's so good that it destroys us.
David: Right.
Seth: And we're not that way. So the best ex- example I've heard is like the sun.
David: Yes.
Seth: The sun is really, really-
David: Good
Seth: ... good.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It makes life possible on Earth. It's unique, which is the-
David: The word holy
Seth: ... the word, the word holy in our solar system, and it's amazing. But also, if you don't, if you approach it improperly, you'll be burned up.
David: Right.
Seth: Not that it's bad.
David: No.
Seth: But because it's so good, so unique, and so powerful.
David: Right.
Seth: And so what's happening here is that same dynamic. Something good, unique, powerful, and life-giving is descending on this mountain, and you cannot come near it-
David: That's right
Seth: ... unprepared.
David: That's right. And, and so the way I described it, not to, not to do a shameless plug here, but the way I described it in my first book, When God Isn't There, is like plastic out- outlet caps.
Seth: Yeah.
David: You know, those little, like, out, you know, the electrical outlet, and there's those little plastic caps you put in to keep your kids from sticking forks into them. Um, electricity is a good thing, right?
Seth: Right.
David: Um, but, you know, a, a concerned parent will put these electrical caps on the outlets, um, because the kids don't know how to approach electricity properly, and so they'll shove forks and nails-
Seth: Right
David: ... and things into these sockets, and that's harmful to them. And so to put a barrier in between-
Seth: And they don't even know what electricity is
David: ... they don't even know what electricity is.
Seth: Which is probably more like us. [laughs]
David: They don't even know what holiness is.
Seth: They don't know what God is.
David: Right. That's exactly right.
Seth: Yeah.
David: They're just meeting Yahweh.
Seth: Right.
David: And so, and so the barrier of the plastic outlet cap is grace, because God is saying, "I want you to live. I want life for you."
Seth: "I want to give you my life."
David: "I want to give you my life."
Seth: Yeah.
David: "But it's got to go in a certain way, 'cause you are so sinful and I am so holy, we have to go about this a certain way," which is what we'll get to in Leviticus. That's what's coming next, is how sinfulness and God's holiness can dwell together. But that problem hasn't been fixed yet, and so he says, "I want life for you, so Moses, put up a barrier, put those electrical outlet caps up, so I can keep my people alive." [laughs] Like, "I want this relationship to work, but it's got to work a certain way, because I am so good, and you are so bad, [laughs] and so I've got to fix this relationship before we can move forward, before you can come and dwell on this mountain." Um, and so, I mean, so, okay, let, let me ask you this question then. So as we close here, how do we see Jesus in this, in this mountain you can't touch, in this holy God who if you got close to him, you would die, how does Jesus solve this problem for us?
Seth: I think it would be helpful to fast-forward to the very end of the Book of Exodus.
David: Okay.
Seth: Where this problem still exists.
David: Yep.
Seth: But what God wants is for the problem not to exist.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: He wants to dwell with his people.
David: Right.
Seth: He has Moses build this beautiful tabernacle where he is supposed to be able to meet with Moses, and Moses walks up to the tabernacle, ready to walk into the presence of the Lord, and he can't.
David: Right.
Seth: The Book of Exodus ends with the people of God being unable to be near God.
David: Yep.
Seth: And ex- Leviticus begins the same way. Moses couldn't walk into the tabernacle, therefore, and we have a whole list of sacrifices-
David: Right
Seth: ... and offerings.
David: Yep.
Seth: And then the Book of Leviticus ends with Moses finally being entered, given access-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... to God's presence. So where does Jesus here?
David: Yeah.
Seth: How do we get into God's presence? We're waiting for a sacrifice-
David: Right
Seth: ... to bridge the gap between God's holiness and our unholiness.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: His uniqueness and our commonness.
David: Right.
Seth: And we're waiting for someone to bridge the gap, and we've been told, really, the only way that happens is through somebody sacrificing something.
David: Right, and someone fulfilling this covenant perfectly.
Seth: Yes.
David: Right.
Seth: Perfectly.
David: So meeting all the conditions of the covenant.
Seth: Right, and which is part of the reason why animals didn't cut it.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, animals can't fulfill the covenant.
David: They can't. They're not people.
Seth: They're not people.
David: Right.
Seth: They're, they were a way in which, they were more electrical caps.
David: Yes.
Seth: They were more ways for us.
David: More barriers.
Seth: More barriers so that God, we could get closer to God-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... and not be killed.
David: Right.
Seth: But we still weren't as close to God as we could be.
David: That's right. We're in His presence.
Seth: And we needed someone-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... to fulfill the covenant perfectly.
David: So that He could be our God, we could be His people.
Seth: Exactly.
David: We could be both at the same time.
Seth: Or why He could live inside of us in the Holy Spirit, descend in us like fire, and we'd, the gospel would make a holy nation out of the entire world. [upbeat music]
David: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. We'd like to remind you that my new book, Rewire Your Heart: Replace Your Desire for Sin with Desire for God, is coming out October 30th. Pre-orders are now available from your favorite retailer. And for all the information, for special offers, for group discussion guides, journal prompts, free chapters, and more, you can visit rewireyourheartbook.com.
Outro: Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture in every corner of the world. To learn more about the ministry of Spoken Gospel and to view more of our resources, visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
